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| Thread: Achievements in H6. A wish, a possibility or a necessity? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted August 28, 2010 02:43 AM |
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Edited by TDL at 02:45, 28 Aug 2010.
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Poll Question:
Achievements in H6. A wish, a possibility or a necessity?
Hello dear folks from Heroes Community!
-stops with the honorifics-
This certain idea occurred to me the other day and -spoiler alert- like in the Inception it perpetrated and took over my mind (a virus!) -/spoiler alert- and so I came to discuss it with a wider crowd than me and my messenger partner -pokes  -. I have recently been coming back to the community (hey to those who still remember me) to nitpick about the upcoming H6 games and ever since I logged on my head has been swarming with these ideas. Certainly, however, I am not the first person to double- or even triple-think this certain idea, but seeing it largely overlooked and not discussed made me start this new thread.
So, getting on with the thing in question, today I wanted to discuss the possibility of introducing Achievements to M&M: Heroes VI. Yes, yes, many will remember these pesky little buggers as a part of RTS C&C Generals or the oh-so-popular World of Warcraft (ever since then and even since before they have taken over the mainstream gaming). Clearly, I am a victim of this single-purpose marketing decision and "mainstream-ization" of the gaming arena but this feature means a lot to me and I am interested in hearing YOUR opinion on the matter.
If you care to take a look at the matter from several different angles, that can be done easily, without breaking a sweat, right here in this thread. Some of you may consider them a necessity, some consider it an oddity, some may even consider it a liability. Please voice your opinion both in the poll and (even better!) in the thread. 
I, however, would like to take the matter into my own hands and add several cents of mine to the discussion beforehand (which is why I encourage you to read it, thank you). I imply that the developers or the community representatives may be reading this and/or interested in the matter at hand, so I hope our discussion shall bear fruit .
Personally, I am all-hands for the inclusion of achievements, but there are things about the implementation that usually catch my eye and need to be altered for best customer use, especially in a game such as M&M: Heroes VI.
I would like to start off with a comparison example. I cannot take a RPG and compare it to a TBS - anyone should consider it illogical. However, Ubisoft's decision to improve on the RP element in Heroes allows me to compare the two types. Hence, I take Bioware's Mass Effect 2, certainly my number one game from this year in terms of achievements. Achievements in this game are on the verge of being called a 'necessity' rather than a bonus implementation. And that is why? Because, from my point of view, they encourage players to engage in a various different situations and game styles either never experienced before or those seemingly uninteresting or too difficult. There are three different... ummm... forgot the word... reasons why I thought they had to be added and what they did.
A) Firstly, it adds a sense of accomplishment which most of us long for. Achievements serve like checkpoints in your solo career or mark special occasions/specific events.
B) Secondly, it makes the player take on the game/story from a different angle: you shuffle up your skill three, shuffle up the party, it makes you turn your difficulty slider to the very right (making you play on Insanity right from the start), etc.
C) Thirdly, achievements which measure player's unique skill allows for a competitive play between various gamers (haha, I beat the campaign on highest difficulty two hours faster!).
As a side-note I may mention that you gain new insights and bonuses on your second playthrough, but as such an achievement would rather be impractical and highly improbable for a turn-based strategy, I will let it drop (though we can certainly discuss it later on!).
If I moved on to the very CORE of the matter, I would actually refer the lot of you to Worms: Reloaded, the recent re-release of Team17's fabled TBS game which contributed to me creating this topic. At first I thought "Why would there be Achievements here? It is a multi-player oriented TBS game!" but they prove to be right on the spot: the achievements show me the exact reasons why they are good and bad for a TBS-type game and how they depend on their implementation/goal (ie.: you can safely abuse the training mode to use a weapon as many times as you want for an award while some of the other achievements encourage/require you to engage difficult gameplay).
Thus, here comes the primary negative point: having achievements in-game may lead to 'award-hunting' much like the fabled quality-point hunting or may even encourage cheating in order to get them. Alas, the harder you try, the more universe will make you fail in this aspect by producing people with the aforementioned... umm... disorder. Hence, if achievements are to be implemented, they need to be logically explained, fit for the game AND either with limited possibilities of abuse or NONE (the latter is more favourable ). Also, they must not interfere with the game, they should not be more important than enjoyment you receive while playing or overcome the sense of accomplishment when you beat your opponent (human or computer alike).
Now, let this old man rest near his coffee table and express your views! Looking forward to reading them
P.S. Being blessed with the inability to edit this poll post after the first vote is made, I am thereby announcing the first reply (second post) in the thread as my placeholder for possible statistical analysis, comments or suggestions. Thank you for cooperation.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted August 28, 2010 02:45 AM |
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Edited by TDL at 14:28, 28 Aug 2010.
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(continuation - a list of Talek's possible HOMM achievements)
I have recently been trying to come up with a list of possible achievements (and their types) for Heroes VI (mind you, not knowing the game itself, I base it off the former Heroes series and the upcoming campaign). How they would be implemented is not for me to decide but the basics of their application and implementation should rest visible. I have sorted them into gametypes to make it easier to discern why I think this certain type would fit Heroes series.
Difficulty achievements
This type of achievements is exactly what it says they are: the achievements emphasize the difficulty of a situation a player has to overcome. In a strategy game, these would include (but not be limited to) completing campaigns or single player maps on certain difficulty settings, having time trials (eg.: complete a part of the campaign or a map by month XX), take down an overpowering mob, etc.).
Pros:
- The player is forced to adapt a new style to his gameplay in order to earn a certain achievement.
- Increasing difficulty increases sense of achievement once you complete a certain mission.
- May improve your take on the game.
Cons:
- Due to various circumstances, it may not be accessible to all.
- May instigate cheating for people who earn awards but do not want to try playing normally.
Exemplary comparison to Mass Effect 2:
Insanity - Complete the game on the "Insanity" difficulty level without changing the setting.
Exemplary comparison to C&C Generals:
Blitzkrieg - Complete a skirmish map in less than 10 minutes (for a higher level, you have to beat the opponent in less than 5 minutes and on hardest difficulty IIRC).
Possible H6 Achievements:
 Complete the whole single player campaign on the most difficult setting (grandmaster).
Complete a part X of campaign Y in less than XX months (quick thinking).
Complete a certain/random premade map in X minutes/hours/ingame days (blitzkrieg).
Win a game with a largely undeveloped town/overpowering a stronger foe. (giantkiller)
Eliminate a stack of neutral champion (highest level) creatures just by using your hero. (legendary)
Complete a map without ever losing a control point (strategist).
Story progression achievements
Story progression achievements are actually rather intertwined with difficulty achievements and one could merge them both if we were to talk about completing certain maps/campaign parts on certain difficulty. However, this area may include more distinct types such as embarking on a side-quest while doing the main quest, completing the main quests in different manners, changing sides, visiting a certain location or finding an easter egg. Also, these achievements can mark your progress with the campaign just like checkpoints.
Pros:
- Forces the player to embark on the single player campaign.
- Largely requires a player's perception to play part in the campaign in spotting what is necessary for an achievement.
- Introduces players to the game's lore.
- Improves replayability.
Cons:
- Non-single-player fanatics may find it difficult to obtain these achievements if they only play custom games.
- May instigate cheating.
- The achievements need to be diverse and non-repetitive, encouraging trying out new ways instead of asking for the same thing over again.
Exemplary comparison to Mass Effect 2:
Against All Odds - Survive suicide mission.
No one Left Behind - Keep your team alive through suicide mission (and I can tell you this is hard and requires some trial and error unless you rely on walkthroughs).
Colony Defense - Defend a human colony from attack.
Possible H6 Achievements:
Discover the true culprit behind X attack (detective).
Side with a certain faction to complete a part of the campaign (faux diplomat).
Complete the whole single player campaign (completionist).
Complete the tutorial campaign (tavern dweller).
Multi-player versus single player achievements
These achievements mainly reach out for players who are interested in playing custom and online/hotseat games instead of the campaign/storyline mode. These achievements can be rather diverse: competitive, team-play oriented, exploration-oriented, completion oriented. There are multiple ways to integrate them into the game and I think they would benefit both single player gamers and multi player gamers (ie. competitions such as TOH).
Pros:
- Encourages competitive play between players.
- Encourages competitive teamplay between players.
- Allows for bigger challenges.
- Encourages players to try out various modes.
- Allows for roleplay fanatic to embark on huge quests.
Cons:
- People without an internet connection or skills might not obtain multiplayer achievements.
- May encourage cheating.
- If a certain achievement has special prerequisites (such as win in XX days) and the player is reluctant to play if he fails, this may ultimate destroy online gaming.
Exemplary comparison to Worms: Reloaded:
Fast, Pink and Hard - Win a Pro ranked match in under 3 minutes.
Ranked Master - Achieve 17 wins in all ranked match types.
Exemplary comparison to C&C Generals: Zero Hour:
Fair Play Honor - Must disconnect from less than 10% of your matches (online).
Endurance Honor - Complete all skirmish maps vs Easy, Medium, or Hard CPUs to earn Bronze, Silver, or Gold.
Ultimate Honor - Complete ever Skirmish map against the maximum number of enemies on Hard difficulty (combines this type with difficulty type).
Possible H6 achievements:
Complete an online match for a single time (wired).
Disconnect from less than X amount of your games (unless timed out / fair play).
Complete a certain map (adventurer).
Complete all premade maps at least once (world tour).
Win an online teamgame (must be at least 2 teams per alliance / teamplayer).
Engage in an online competition mode and win (domination).
Complete all online game types at least once (completionist).
Craft a map and complete it or complete a usermade map in a multiplayer game (cartographer).
... and many more!...
Miscellaneous achievements
This category of achievements does not directly relate to any of the aforementioned types. Instead, it governs all the various other possible achievements (which are countless). However, this type usually include many do X Y times to unlock achievements, so it needs to be thoroughly reviewed before inclusion. Of course, encouraging replayability is a good thing but when things get out of hand (for example, you are forced to play the game X times to kill a number of creatures), things need to rebalanced. This type can be easily sorted into various subtypes but the core difference between the major achievement types is clearly noticeable.
Pros:
- Does exactly what the Achievements are intended to do.
- Increases replayability, especially of premade and custom made maps.
- Increases immersion.
Cons:
- May be tedious to achieve.
- Overcomplicated or too easy.
- May encourage abusing glitches or game features to obtain them faster/more easily.
Exemplary comparison to Mass Effect 2:
Merciless - Make 20 enemies scream as they fall or are set on fire.
Head Hunter - Perform 30 headshot kills with any weapon on humanoid targets
Power Gamer - Reach Level 30 with one character.
Power Full - Evolve any power.
Exemplary comparison to Worms: Reloaded:
Prod For Victory - Win a game just by using the Prod.
Six Pest - Kill 6 enemy worms in a single turn.
Fire Starter - Use fire weapons 200 times.
Armageddon An Award - Use the Armageddon weapon 10 times.
Exemplary comparison to C&C Generals: Zero Hour:
Air Wing Honor - Build 20+ aircraft against a CPU player.
Apocalypse Honor - Build the Particle Cannon, Nuclear Missile, and Scud Storm.
GLA Loyalty Honor - Play 20+games in a row as GLA.
Possible H6 achievements:
Collect and complete a certain artifact set (artificer).
Successfully raid a dragon utopia (treasuer hunter).
Eliminate/amass a stack of virtually every creature (neutral included) in your army (over a set of games/ leader).
Fully evolve your hero/hero's skill tree/racial ability within a single map (explorer).
Find all the easter eggs within the campaign (easter bunny).
Complete an online game with one of the game developers (well-connected).
Fully evolve your town (governor).
... and many more...
HOMM experience achievements
I figure seeing that this is our dearly beloved TBS game, it has to have its unique set of achievements which may require (but not be restricted to) prior knowledge of HOMM series and additional HOMM-related skills. Such achievements could include knowing the lore of Ashan, knowing the other M&M games, knowing how the game is to be played etc. This would of course be completely up to the dev's will as it is impossible to guess what their minds would make of it.
Pros:
- Would prove as a gift of loyalty to the fans.
Cons:
- Newcomers may have difficulties dealing with the achievements.
Possible H6 achievements:
Successfully answer a sphinx's question related to the world of Ashan/dark messiah game (librarian).
Obtain an army of never-before seen creatures in HOMM universe (tamer).
Adorn X amount of artifacts that serve as easter eggs/relics of the games before.
Obtain a high enough game score to be atop the H6 single player Hall of Fame (courtesy of Erathia).
All of the above achievement sub-types can easily make their appearance in our beloved TBS game. How they would be implemented - no clue, but the above could quite possibly be a half- to moderately-decent example of the achievements we might expect in H6. Whichever it is, I hope they are plentiful, interesting to pursue and will prove to be a decent addition for everyone (even the skeptics; as long as the achievements do not meddle with their games).
Have any suggestions? Post them! It would be interesting to see what people would like to see and what would make them want to play the game.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 28, 2010 08:01 AM |
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I was thinking about the Achievement thing myself, although not in any specific way. I do think Achievement can be fun, but I think one shall be very carefull not to make it so that game features are only unlucked after completing achievements. It should be an option, not something you have to do. That being said, it can also be very fun to hunt for achievements - I often do that in various games on iPhones and the like; I voted for implementation with limits.
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What will happen now?
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JonsJons
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 28, 2010 08:12 AM |
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if it's like achievements for the 360 then sure, that's a pretty good idea, it adds replayability to the game for achievement snow like me
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 28, 2010 09:54 AM |
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Why do people want to bring achievements everywhere ? Leave Heroes be, please ! 
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted August 28, 2010 10:28 AM |
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Edited by TDL at 10:29, 28 Aug 2010.
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Quote:
Why do people want to bring achievements everywhere ? Leave Heroes be, please !
Nelgirith, while I do respect your opinion, would you actually mind if they were in the game for other players to enjoy? If none of the game features were bound to them, as per Alci's statement, would they really bother you or obstruct your gameplay? You, as a player, wouldn't be forced to collect them and could enjoy the game regardless. Or is there more to it?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 28, 2010 11:29 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:30, 28 Aug 2010.
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I had some similar ideas.
What I have in mind is something that
1) is challenging to do.
2) signifies a personal choice in the storyline.
3) rewards the player for fully exploring the missions.
In the first I could cite Arantir taking the 3rd mission orc town, it was optional but required a lot of planning and it was quite the accomplishment to capture it.
In the second it could be about a quest you accepted or denied that affects the course of the storyline.
Third would refer to finding rare items, gathering an epic artifact set, seeing all easter eggs etc.
Ofc multiplayer achievements would be sweet to add but I have not reflected on it much. Off the top of my head we could have a record of how fast you can take down all opponents in a small/medium/large map, your ability as a creeper - say maintain 80 of your army during the first 2-3 weeks or take down an army that is x times stronger than yours, never losing the control points you have captured and so on. Those could of course come in bronze, silver and gold badges according to how successful you are at them.
I very much like the idea of achievements that promote replayability and trying out different tactics and gameplay if this is possible. Oh and voted that they should have limits.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2010 02:17 PM |
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I don't know why people like achievements so much. Their only purpose is to condition you to play the game more. It's like all the flashing lights and sounds that slot machines make. They create an artificial reward for a behavior to keep you mindlessly playing while ignoring the loss you're incurring.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 28, 2010 02:25 PM |
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Which is why this discussion is being had. There can be achievements that are worth pursuing without you wasting your time, I found a huge number of dragon age achievements to be lame or pointless. Then there's wolverine origins, while nothing special in themselves they DO compel you to enrich your gameplay and do more impressive things.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted August 28, 2010 02:33 PM |
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Edited by TDL at 14:40, 28 Aug 2010.
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And to complement elvin's above post, the comparison to Mass Effect 2 is being done exactly because the achievements there were crafted marvelously and did not meddle with the game. You could easily get 95% of the achievements without replaying a second time or doing something extremely out of ordinary. Everything that needed to be done to get the achievements was basically completed throughout the game, without me even lifting a finger.
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2010 02:44 PM |
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But the whole point of achievements is to pad out the game and condition you to play it regardless of how much you actually enjoy it. You have a 10 hour FPS game? Add an achievement where you have to kill every enemy with headshots and you can only use the weakest gun. That 10 hour game suddenly becomes a 30 hour game.
Achievements do not make games better. Just like how themed slot machines that play songs and flash a bunch of colorful lights do not increase the chances of you winning your money back.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 28, 2010 02:48 PM |
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You are still missing the point. THOSE kinds of achievements are the ones that waste your time, you can make something challenging without it being annoying like that.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted August 28, 2010 02:49 PM |
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Edited by TDL at 14:51, 28 Aug 2010.
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Yes, the achievements add to replayability as well as immersion. If that is a wrong thing for the developers to do, then why should they worry about listening to the fans about adding other features? Of course it is a marketing decision but many people like them, young and old, new and old gamers alike. However, the achievements need to be toned down accordingly to not be annoying.
I myself tend to quickly lose interest in games and having additional milestones and goals lets me get more fun out of the game, especially from a point of view I had never tried before
EDIT: Also, having re-read your post, I can tell that the Achievement in question, Vicheron, and the way you described it is an exact award-hunting case. Achievements need not be as obnoxious in order for them to prove themselves in the game
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2010 03:12 PM |
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Quote:
You are still missing the point. THOSE kinds of achievements are the ones that waste your time, you can make something challenging without it being annoying like that.
But what's the point of having a "challenge" achievement at all. If you like the game enough to want to do a speed run, stealth run, or no kill run, then you'll do it regardless of whether or not there is an achievement. The achievement is there to compel you to do something that you won't necessarily enjoy through the use of conditioning.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted August 28, 2010 05:53 PM |
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Okay, I will take some time to explain why "challenge" achievements (and achievements overall) are a decent addition.
First of all, doing what thou whilst is exactly what you should do when playing a game. A TBS such as Heroes usually allows such a thing as long as we stick to its rules. So if you want to do a speed run, have a super boss fight or explore, you are free to do so. BUT there are a few things you will not be able to do:
A) Show it off to other people (ie.: in the form of results, etc.)
B) Have an preprogrammed in-game proof of it which would also serve as a reminder for you.
Secondly, having a "challenging" achievement would allow you to set milestones for yourself easier. You would be capable of doing the same thing and also get an achievement which you could keep as a reminder or even show off to others. Noone would force you to play it in a way you dont want to, unless you actually went for the achievement. EVEN THEN, it is possible to get a certain achievement in multiple ways.
Thirdly, achievements encourage competition. You could say that you can play the game without multiplayer competitions or that they do not hold any value but even then you gain points for participation and decent gameplay (like in TOH), much like different achievements  .
Take, for example, the ones I aforementioned from Worms: Reloaded. You are never inclined to play the game just to get a certain achievement if you do not want to. You can always go for a casual game. But there are also ranked matches, leaderboards and achievement for the dedicated people.
Lastly, you are saying that achievements are your own loss as you are inclined to play the game longer. But even without them you may be inclined to play the game very long because either the story is long or you find it fun. Or maybe the enjoyment you obtain from the game is above everything else? Neither you nor I can judge the way the people enjoy the game.
To sum it all up, DIFFERENT players want DIFFERENT things, as is the case everywhere. Catering to them all is impossible; but adding achievements to the game will not ruin the game whatsoever - the skeptic players could just ignore them (as they wont get in their way) while the more favourable players could pursue them while playing. It is just a matter of implementation
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted August 29, 2010 03:01 AM |
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Quote:
Okay, I will take some time to explain why "challenge" achievements (and achievements overall) are a decent addition.
First of all, doing what thou whilst is exactly what you should do when playing a game. A TBS such as Heroes usually allows such a thing as long as we stick to its rules. So if you want to do a speed run, have a super boss fight or explore, you are free to do so. BUT there are a few things you will not be able to do:
A) Show it off to other people (ie.: in the form of results, etc.)
B) Have an preprogrammed in-game proof of it which would also serve as a reminder for you.
Secondly, having a "challenging" achievement would allow you to set milestones for yourself easier. You would be capable of doing the same thing and also get an achievement which you could keep as a reminder or even show off to others. Noone would force you to play it in a way you dont want to, unless you actually went for the achievement. EVEN THEN, it is possible to get a certain achievement in multiple ways.
Thirdly, achievements encourage competition. You could say that you can play the game without multiplayer competitions or that they do not hold any value but even then you gain points for participation and decent gameplay (like in TOH), much like different achievements .
Take, for example, the ones I aforementioned from Worms: Reloaded. You are never inclined to play the game just to get a certain achievement if you do not want to. You can always go for a casual game. But there are also ranked matches, leaderboards and achievement for the dedicated people.
It's true that no one is forcing you to get the achievements but that's not the problem. The problem is that the achievements are tricking you into playing it longer.
Quote:
Lastly, you are saying that achievements are your own loss as you are inclined to play the game longer. But even without them you may be inclined to play the game very long because either the story is long or you find it fun. Or maybe the enjoyment you obtain from the game is above everything else? Neither you nor I can judge the way the people enjoy the game.
I'm not judging people for the way they enjoy the game. I'm judging game companies for the way they're tricking people into playing a game beyond their enjoyment, just as I would judge a movie studio for making a deceptive trailer or shamelessly using gratuitous sex or violence to get people's attention.
Quote:
To sum it all up, DIFFERENT players want DIFFERENT things, as is the case everywhere. Catering to them all is impossible; but adding achievements to the game will not ruin the game whatsoever - the skeptic players could just ignore them (as they wont get in their way) while the more favourable players could pursue them while playing. It is just a matter of implementation
But this isn't about personal tastes, it's about game companies tricking people into liking something. This is just like the pet rock or the furby or the rickroll.
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seddy
Known Hero
Spinner of delicious cupcakes
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posted August 29, 2010 04:41 AM |
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I voted for implemented but with limitations (second option.
Achievements can motivate you to grind needlessly towards a simple pile of pixels on your screen with no effect in the game at all.
Or they can be fun little milestones that you just happen to pass by, or take a little detour to see.
Or, they can add/unlock/enhance/etc in game content, which makes them tools of the Devi- I mean Sovereign. You shouldn't have to play a battle over and over just to unlock a boost of 100 starting gold or some crap like that.
Point: Achievements in the form of pretty little sparkling things without in-game value = ok by me, as long as done responsibly.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted August 29, 2010 12:08 PM |
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Edited by TDL at 12:08, 29 Aug 2010.
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Having a grudge against their marketing decisions is fine by me, then I understand your take. But usually people play games such as Heroes or Worms willingly and even longer by themselves, there is no need to be negative about their inclusion just because of the publisher's or developer's efforts to lengthen the game. If a person likes the achievements or likes the increased length of the game, it should be okay, no? In spite of the fact that he has lost the battle to companies' "evil bidding"
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 29, 2010 12:17 PM |
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Let me put it another way. Back when I held heroes tournaments I used to give unlockables for memorable occasions be them a funny situations, something really rare or challenging to pull off. Like this.
Did I make them play more than they would too? And if not would similar achievements do?
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Warlord
Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
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posted August 29, 2010 03:50 PM |
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I voted that I don't have a set opinion, but I would agree to their use. Vicheron, I don't understand your reasoning. The company isn't forcing us to do anything. As Alciblades said, achievements should be optional so that people like you (no offense) don't have to do them.
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