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| Thread: Heroes VI - Renovated Skill System Idea | |
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted September 09, 2010 01:22 AM |
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Edited by TDL at 21:09, 10 Sep 2010.
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Heroes VI - Renovated Skill System Idea
Last Update: Deleted a small part of the specialties section. Project seemingly finished, may receive small updates when/if people suggest/comment  .
Much as I would want this to stay within a single thread or a single discussion, the individualistic matter in question is too broad to be governed and discussed in a general discussion... Please accept my apology for multiple threads on the boards, but being inspired to work on the idea, I needed some additional space to collect my ideas, I hope you will like them. Writing this whole proposal was time consuming (and so it will be for those interested) but I loved every moment of it (except when I was stuck with perk names or accidentally forgot the original perk intentions).
The original post can be found here: Skills and Specialties.
Below you will find the table of what will be governed within this post. To find a specific location just use CTRL + F to find the bookmarked location by its code.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
100. Introduction
200. Renovated Skill System
201. Upgrading Skills
202. Racial (Faction) Skills
203. Skill Categorization
203a. Basic Skill Categories
203b. Skill Affiliation
203c. Exemplary Skill Tree: Haven
204. Advanced Classes
300. Hero Specialties
301. Categorization
302. Exemplary Comparison
303. Alternate Idea: Upgradable Specialties
100. Introduction
First of all, this skill system proposal is pure guesswork/suggestions for how the skill system should/might look like. Having absolutely no information on how the developers are going to manage the skill system and hero specialties (if the latter are present at all), I can only give it some thought as opposed to a full skill tree which I would create given the chance to take a peak at the game's data. I do not seek to create a new unfamiliar system either, no. Instead I am focusing my gaze upon the best traits of the skill system in the former installment.
Secondly, the way I think the system could be done (with proper balancing of course) is fairly much dependent on the "branching" of every class/skill subtree/specialty and their affixed separation. As I am not yet guaranteed about the strictness of skill separation between might and magic heroes (even though it does seem to have been confirmed), I can only base the idea on a preset discursion between classes and the former skill system.
Lastly, any numeric values in my disposition are completely random and would most likely differ if the said system was implemented into the game. This involves both skill and specialty effects AND the amount of existing skills and skill perks.
200. Renovated Skill System
Say, I was poised to guess how a skill tree should look like. How I envision the whole thing based on the separation of the classes relies on two core class skill subtrees and a single secondary class skill subtree. The two hero classes have different affiliations (affinities) - magic versus might, respectively. The third skill subtree features skills that can be acquired regardless of affinity and/or based on the opposing affinity, if that is accepted, with restrictions (ie.: might heroes obtaining magic skills whilst magic heroes obtain might skills). Needless to say, some might and magic skill subtrees should/need to be available to every hero class, respective of their opposing affinity. However, the basis (the core) should be restricted or at least limited to hero's affinity (some skills such as War Machines only available for might heroes whilst Sorcery would only be available for magic). The visual illustration below indicates how I perceive the idea however basic the categorization is.
201. Upgrading Skills
While the topic in question is actually pretty clear and self-explanatory, there is one notable detail to take notice of. The possibility of skill progression just as it used to be in former versions is more than likely: once you level up your hero, you gain a certain skill or perk (or a skill point to invest into your skill tree). However, there is a chance that you may actually get a) more than one skill point per level: in such case, increasing a skill level would require some more planning while at the same time distorting the usual HOMM vision; b) a skill point per level and a perk point: in such case, perks would matter less than skills and it would (sadly) distort the usual HOMM vision. Even though there are new possibilities with the changed system, if this happens, the usual strategic planning as well as the manipulation of the skill tree will need to be changed drastically in order to adapt. The basis of my skill system does not involve the changed manner but rather relies on the simple "take a skill/perk" per level. However, the amount of perks a hero can obtain is not restricted.
202. Racial (Faction) Skills
Racial skills in this system would pretty much work the same way as in H5, with the sole exception of rebalancing and renovation. A racial skill would be a unique skill with associated perks and subskills based on the various other obtainable skills. The only difference would be the skill/perk affiliation to hero types: magic and might heroes would have certain perks unique to them, respectively. Again, no future examples can be given without knowing the factions (even though I can pretty much guess that we will have the same racial skills for the three standard heroic factions). However, speculating on the skills of the former installment, we could possibly make Unstoppable Charge a perk for a might-oriented Haven hero, Vessel of Elrath or Dragonblessed (Freyda's and Isabel's specialties) perks for either hero type (elrath more oriented towards magic-affiliated hero).
203. Skill Categorization
In continuation with the 200th section, this section will focus on the core features of the system: skill categorization based on hero affiliation. Below you shall find examples of how non-visibly categorization was being dealt with in the past, how I envision the categorization should be implemented, how affilations should be dealt with, as well as some examples of skills, perks and an exemplary skill tree. Please take some time to analyze the aforementioned section's picture before reading below.
203a. Basic Skill Categories
To understand the implementation of categorization we need to summarize all the skills into various basic categories. Some skills may belong to several categories (or be affiliated to more than one hero type) so duplication in terms of skill categories is possible. I must stress though that categories are not the sub-categories listed in the picture, nor are they visible in-game. The categories serve more as a theoretical round-up, meant to distinguish the groups of skills from one another and why in the end a certain skill is affiliated with a certain hero affinity.
SKILL SET: MAGIC TYPES
This skill category is comprised of skills allowing heroes to further their capabilities in a specific magic type (ie.: Light Magic) and associated effects/perks: allows the casting of associated spells of higher level, improves their effects and casting speed, adds mass effect, etc. Please take notice that magic types do not involve skills that deal with mastery of spellcasting.
Heroes V Representative Skills: Light Magic, Dark Magic, Destructive Magic, Summoning Magic
Heroes IV Representative Skills: Life Magic (+ Spirituality), Death Magic (+ Demonology), Chaos Magic (+ Pyromancy, Sorcery), Nature Magic (+ Meditation), Order Magic (+ Wizardry)
Heroes III Representative Skills: Air Magic, Earth Magic, Fire Magic, Water Magic
SKILL SET: MASTERY OF SPELLCASTING
This skill category is comprised of skills that improve heroes' spellcasting as well as magic mastery in combat and adventure maps alike. Skills that belong to this category increase the hero's mana pool, mana regeneration, spellcasting speed, improves the power of spellcasters in hero's army, etc. Please take notice that mastery of spellcasting does not involve specific magic types.
Heroes V Representative Skills: Sorcery, Enlightenment (perks)
Heroes IV Representative Skills: Healing, Occultism, Enchantment, Conjuration, Herbalism, Sorcery
Heroes III Representative Skills: Eagle Eye, Intelligence, Mysticism, Scholar, Sorcery, Wisdom
SKILL SET: MASTERY OF COMBAT
This skill category is comprised of skills that improve the combat power of troops in the hero's army and the hero himself. Skills increase/decrease melee/ranged (even magic) damage dealt by/to hero's army, allow expansive strategic tactics in combat, etc. Furthermore, some of the skills improve hero's mastery over war machines.
Heroes V Representative Skills: Attack, Defense, Leadership, Luck, War Machines
Heroes IV Representative Skills: Tactics, Combat
Heroes III Representative Skills: Archery, Offence, Armourer, Resistance, Leadership, Luck, Tactics, Artillery, First Aid, Ballistics
SKILL SET: ADVENTURE MAP/EXPLORATION
This skill category is comprised of skills that affect hero's mobility on the adventure map and improve hero's daily resource income. Some skills may also increase creature growth or allow for easier creature recruitment.
Heroes V Representative Skills: Enlightenment, Logistics, Leadership (perks), Luck (perks)
Heroes IV Representative Skills: Scouting, Nobility, Charm, Resurrection, Summoning
Heroes III Representative Skills: Necromancy (to an extent), Diplomacy, Estates, Learning, Logistics, Pathfinding, Scouting, Navigation
SKILL SET: OFFENSIVE
This skill category is comprised of skills that improve the offensive capabilities of troops in the hero's army and the hero himself. The base concept of offensive skill set relies on high damage dealt by allied units, swift unit mobility, direct damage oriented spells and curses, etc. Please take notice that offensive skills do not improve the defensive skills of the army.
Heroes V Representative Skills: Attack, Leadership, Luck, War Machines
Heroes IV Representative Skills: Combat, Tactics, Chaos Magic, Order Magic, Death Magic
Heroes III Representative Skills: Archery, Offense, Tactics, Artillery, Ballistics
SKILL SET: DEFENSIVE
This skill category is comprised of skills that improve the defensive capabilities of troops in the hero's army and the hero himself. The base concept of defensive skill set relies on significant damage reduction of damage dealt to allied units, increased sturdiness and magic resistance, spells that involve blessings and create obstacles, etc. Please take notice that defensive skills do not improve the offensive skills of the army.
Heroes V Representative Skills: Defence, Leadership, Luck, War Machines
Heroes IV Representative Skills: Combat, Tactics, Life Magic, Nature Magic, Order Magic
Heroes III Representative Skills: Armourer, Resistance, Tactics, First Aid
SKILL SET: SECONDARY
This skill category is comprised of skills beyond a certain affiliation. They may not serve as a major powerhouse (or they may), but they have high value nevertheless. They may also belong to various other categories, however they do not belong to the offensive (principal) category.
Heroes V Representative Skills: Enlightenment, Leadership, Logistics, Luck, Sorcery, War Machines
Heroes IV Representative Skills: Tactics, Scouting, Nobility, Resurrection, Necromancy, Charm, Summoning
Heroes III Representative Skills: Tactics, Artillery, Ballistics, First Aid, Necromancy, Pathfinding, Logistics, Scouting, Navigation, Learning, Estates, Diplomacy, Mysticism, Scholar, Eagle Eye
The above categories should show both the distinction between several types of skills and the similarities among the others. This, in effect, should prove that skills can be coordinated to serve both a major purpose in hero's development/battle or it may be just a secondary or supporting skill (such as the fabled Logistics skill). Skill categorization eases up the process: some skills based on their categorical arrangement may never appear to serve a major purpose, some may serve a major purpose but still remain a supporting skill, in spite of how interwoven the skill tree is with its perks. Furthermore, since the hero's development is cordially decided by his affinity, certain skills (skill categories) are more likely to be included in the top of the table (which is already explained in the following sections).
203b. Skill Affiliation
The above seven principal categories show how skills could be sorted into several specific categories, based on the principles of their application. However, sorting them into categories is not enough to include them in a game with two distinct hero affinities. Hence, here comes the second subsection of the categorization section: skill affiliation.
The base of skill affiliation is the process of merging smaller skill categories with a hero's specific affinity into larger sub-categories corresponding to the latter. In effect, in the picture above we can see that there are three main subcategories (Offensive, Defensive (Supportive is more appropriate) and Strategic (Secondary is more appropriate too)) unto which skills are placed. The linear visual, however, does not show the subtle intricacy of a unique-per-faction and -per-affinity skill tree. The delicate illustration below visualizes the most basic and undeveloped of trees.
As per the picture, principal skills carry the most weight in the hero's skill tree. They fit his affinity (might, magic) completely and additionally complement the racial ability (active skills). The path a hero must take to unlock the ultimate perk is interwoven with the perks of principal skills. Supporting (defensive) skills are skills intended to give the hero some additional tactical support, and could as well be regarded as passive skills. They branch into more complex perks as you progress, complementing the advanced perks of the skill tree. However, in the case of multiple magic types, they serve as an inferior magic type which may improve the advanced perks (perks which require cross-skill development) or simply serve as a means to learn new spells and increase their effect. Secondary or strategic skills are exactly what they are said to be: additional skills that do not carry weight in hero's development but serve a strategic purpose. They do not obstruct or limit the way towards a hero's ultimate perk and they have no related advanced perks (there are exceptions). Nevertheless, they have their own value and can be taken to further advance the hero's capabilities (in the case of Logistics, a multi-faction secondary skill, which improves a hero's movement capabilities over Adventure Map). These skills (and their perks) give you a shady advantage over the enemy which may not have a definite reflection of their benefit from first glance.
As you can see, the delicate separation of skills into several affiliated sub-categories is rather similar to what he have in the former installment. The true visual difference is noticeable only when you see the full developed tree with all the available perks, skills and their correlations. So now that we come to the part where I need an exact example to show off what I mean. This part is the most difficult to decide as it weighs a lot upon my decision if magic skills are meant to be presented as secondary for heroes or not...
203c. Exemplary Skill Tree: Haven
Tada! Now we have approached the part where the true potential of the potential skill mechanism is shown. Below you will find an example of a skill tree for each of the two hero affinities. Comments on available skills and skill perks will follow below skill trees. The skill trees that you are about to see are in some ways limited and it could include more alternatives or possibilities in the full game (even though it is rather well-made in my opinion, I pretty much know it lacks variety). Nevertheless, these two trees were tailored to fit the exact needs of the faction and may be in large part situational.
The image above shows how variable skill trees can be, meaning that a certain skill may prove to be of major necessity for one hero (hence, belong to principal category) while another hero would find it inferior or simply be ineligible to use it. The clearest example would be the Dwarven Fortress: if we were to develop it, we could safely assume that defence is their prerogative and therefore a principal skill, while Haven's knights find the skill to serve a more subtle purpose, hence being classified as supporting.
204. Advanced Classes
While I honestly believe that advanced classes is a great idea and seeing that they are to be implemented in the game, I will overlook them for the time being as I am a bit unsure as to how to implement it in a simple manner. Part of this is because my skill system has intentional skill restrictions because of hero affiliations. Another part of this is that cross-skill development is vital to my skill tree and adding additional benefits proves to be unreasonable. Nevertheless, nothing ends here - read on to the specialties' section.
300. Hero Specialties
Hero specialties, just as based on their names, give heroes unique advantages over one another which denies them any chance of proper balancing (unless all heroes are made with the exact same specialty). Therefore, additional time (which costs money) is vital to balance them out which is usually spared for other tweaks. Thinking about this made me realize that the only other way I could understand balancing goes in the form of sorting specialties into subtrees, just as the skills.
Hero specialties, however, should NOT affect skills themselves per se (ie.: experience bonus 2% every 4 levels, similarly and complementary to intelligence). Knowing full well that we can have a hero just as we want him (because of the new level-up non-random system), there is no need to further enrich a certain skill's worth just by taking a certain hero. That is doable, of course, but I'd rather not to, especially if the amount in % is of greated number and general effect on the game. Also, it should be noted that specialties could be only loosely limited to heroes with a certain affinity (affiliation): for example, magic heroes could as well specialize in spellcasting creatures.
301. Categorization
Might (militaristic, offensive) category would rely on battle tactics, unique battle traits, creature skill boosts, hero's military strength as well as own damage output increase. The amount of subcategories within the subtree corresponds to basic necessity: we can leave only hero's damage output increase and creature skill boosts if need be. However, being based on these two subcategories would pretty much rule out any need of specialties as it would be practically the same. Hence, various subtle specialties could be added or various subtle creature traits should be improved by the governing specialty.
  
Magic (spellcasting, magic mastery, defensive) category would rely on mastering certain spells, increasing their damage output/effect, creature magic affinity/resistance boosts, hero's magical damage strength, enhanced magic-oriented effects. However, the subtree's categories should correspond to a defensive style - the hero remains the individualistic spellcasting strategist, not the ultimate leader.
  
Mixed (unique, adventure, secondary) category would rely on specialties that do not belong to any of the above categories. Such specialties are hard to name by example (some may include racial traits, the others may as well rely on the adventure map), so all I can do (for now) is show some H5 examples:
  
However, I have failed to mention a few things (which were already mentioned in the thread). To balance out specialties, effects need to spread accordingly: creature specialists need a noticeable yet gradual increase in firepower, spellcasters need noticeable rebalancing (such as Nathir's fireball), object-oriented might specialists need noticeable rebalancing as well (such as Deleb). Nevertheless, specialties need not be dumbed down, but they should not decide the game. Then again, each and every one of them should progress accordingly and not be limited to a semi-linear increase. Below I will show some examples of what I have in mind in comparison to the used system (numbers and non-linear curves not final, would change in game).
The above image reflects the aforementioned ideas. Having no certain information on factions, I cannot delve into unique specialties-per-faction proposals (and of course balance problems). Also, I cannot guess the possible attack/defence values, nor other effects. The above example henceforth is just a sample, not a suggested idea by itself. The six subcategories affected by the specialty may also not be everything (other statistics could be affected as well). A magic hero could have interchangeable stat upgrades for a certain creature if the specialty is shared between a might and magic hero: instead of relying on attack and defence, it would rely on increasing magic damage/resistance and over all hit points (survivability). Also, there could be specific traits of a creature affected per specialty (ie.: aside from the usual defence/attack bonuses, a pikeman would get speed bonus, a monk/priestess would get magic resistance bonus or damage vs undead/demons bonus while a griffin would get a substantial hit point increase). However, the example should show the compulsory change between the two systems.
303. Alternate Idea: Upgradable Specialties
Another way to enhance specialties and their effects (and with this, also to modify them and balance them out, ie.: instead of having Zoltan's spellblock limited capability, gradually increase it) would be to make them upgradable much like skills. The invested skill point would then improve the specialty and its effect to a slightly to moderately larger extent. While the ulterior motive is to NOT destroy the balance, having to choose between a skill upgrade and a specialty upgrade could have serious repercussions (ie.: swift enemy might hero attack, breaches your flank, attacks main hero (with elevated offence), main hero has specialty such as spell block and invests points in it in early game = destroyed). Therefore, I'd rather not meddle with the balance as of yet.
I will be eagerly awaiting suggestions and comments. The system can surely be improved via collective effort so as long as it stays close to HOMM-reality and does not stray away into the world of irrational fantasies.
P.S. If you notice some irregularities and inconsistency, please tell me. Many of these posts were late-night modfications so there might be quite a few loose ends to tie.
P.P.S. There are some relations with my proposed magic system from far back in the past (I actually used quite a bit of it to base my proposal) but I might as well go update it to fit my newly imagined system. That is a job for the future
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winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
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posted September 09, 2010 04:46 AM |
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@TDL: That is a LOT of info to take in, so I'm going to have to comment in a general way by saying:
That's incredibly well-planned out and I really like it!
You should get a QP for sheer effort. I would've quit to boredom about halfway through. 
Looking forward to see what else you come up with.
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 09, 2010 09:20 AM |
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Well it's sort of interesting, but I don't understand the whole of section 203 since:
* in 203a. some skills seem to be in two different categories.
* in 203b. you don't explain in the slightest the difference between principal, secondary and supporting skills.
* in 203c. you have offence as a principal skill, but defence as a supporting one.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted September 09, 2010 09:59 AM |
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Quote:
Well it's sort of interesting, but I don't understand the whole of section 203 since:
* in 203a. some skills seem to be in two different categories.
* in 203b. you don't explain in the slightest the difference between principal, secondary and supporting skills.
* in 203c. you have offence as a principal skill, but defence as a supporting one.
Hehe. The whole purpose of 203 is to show how categorization was made in the past and how I envision it.
In 203a, just as I said, skills used to belong to several categories. Those were non-linear and were not exactly separated into actual categories, like I tried to. In H3 there were three basic types: might, magic and adventure. In H4 - might and magic. Now I wanted to shift my gaze upon the non-linear categorization: meaning that skill A could be in two categories (ie, magic mastery + additional support). The basic goal of the part was: categorized skills may belong to several categories.
In 203b, I dont explain the affiliation (that can be arranged, if you want things cleared up ) in a descriptive manner. However, if you read the skill tree you will see the actual difference. Principal skills carry the most weight in the hero's skill tree. They fit his affinity (might, magic) completely and complement the racial ability (active skills). Supporting skills are skills intended to give the hero some additional support, and could as well be regarded as /passive/ skills. They branch into more complex perks as you progress, complementing the advanced perks of the skill tree. Secondary or strategic skills are exactly what they are said to be: additional skills that do not carry weight in hero's development but serve their purpose. They do not obstruct the way towards a hero's ultimate perk and they have no related advanced perks. Nevertheless, they have their own value and can be taken to further advance the hero's capabilities. They are like the backbone of your army, serving you in a way where the possible loopholes are sorted out.
203c area shows how VARIABLE skill trees can be, meaning that a certain skill may prove to be principal (main) for one hero, but may be different for the other. Just like in the example: Defence may be supporting or secondary for Haven's creatures. If we were to develop a Dwarven Fortress's skill tree, we could instantly presume that defence is their prerogative and therefore a principal skill.
I will add some more commentary to fix this in the main post, thank you for outlining.
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted September 09, 2010 11:23 AM |
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impressive work! 
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted September 10, 2010 09:12 PM |
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Thank you! I did some minor tweaking again but I am not sure if I am going to majorly overhaul the specialties. They do seem to complement my skill tree rather often.
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