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| Thread: Cheating |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
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posted November 11, 2010 03:53 PM |
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Looking at DF's case I see a person who isn't willing to do something he doesn't want to. I wouldn't hire a person like that. Everyone is bound to come across something he finds pointless and not worth it. Would I want a person who will just try to get away with as easy as possible or a person who will do it right?
Would you want golems as employees? "yes master I exist to serve you and am at your every command" or someone with wit, logical thinking that can actually make you aware that there might be a better solution to a problem than banging the head against the wall?
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Darkshadow
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posted November 11, 2010 04:06 PM |
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I did try cheating quite often in High school.
I did study some interesting bits of wrote the rest to somewhere.
Just happened so that I remembered what I wrote and not what I studied 
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JoonasTo
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posted November 11, 2010 04:22 PM |
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That's why I don't study in some lame medieval university like you two. Here what you study actually is useful or interesting. Otherwise you wouldn't be taking that course.
If we're talking about useless we should talk about sixth form religion. It's exactly the same as the upper grade religion is. No difference whatsoever.
Or psychology 101 in sixth form. Or philosophy 101 in sixth form. History courses about the said subject, which also double as a compulsory introduction courses. Way to fail at making things interesting. 
(Of course I aced both without studying a single second for either.)
Only place where I could have cheated was Swedish word tests. Those were something I had zero interest in and it was all stuff I would have had to learn completely from the book. Who ever invented the idea that I was going to need the swedish words for global climate change or warming or whatever. Or how to discuss UFOs in swedish, yeah, go die idiots. Of course I didn't cheat or study and failed like 8 tests or so. But who cares? If my papers show I can't discuss about UFOs in swedish I doubt anyone's gonna care.
What comes to doing what is asked correctly and using your brains, those aren't mutually exclusive you know. 
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Doomforge
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posted November 11, 2010 04:28 PM |
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What comes to doing what is asked correctly and using your brains, those aren't mutually exclusive you know.
When your God-level employer asks you to eat crap, you will:
a) do it outright
b) do it while using your brains
c) refuse?
You see, this is a logical trap... a) makes you a golem AND well... coprophile. b) makes you "just" a coprophile (assuming there is a clever way to do it  ) while c) makes you an employee you wouldn't want because he decides himself what order to follow and what to ignore.
Forcing you to learn complete BS by rote isn't that far from ordering you to eat crap. Both make you feel horrible, waste your time and are absolutely worthless. Both stink, too
Life isn't about following orders of some guru - it's pretty much about your benefit over the benefit of others.
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JoonasTo
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posted November 11, 2010 04:46 PM |
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If I had taken the job where I was supposed to eat crap I would.
You see, it doesn't matter if you make it eating crap or sleeping with hot chicks. If that's what your work is then that's what you do. Or get fired. If you can find a better way to eat crap or have sex with hot chicks your employer will reward you for it or your work will get easier. If you refuse, you get fired.
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ihor
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posted November 11, 2010 04:49 PM |
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You know, if I had been a boss of big software company and I had to choose between 2 employees, first is good in software developing, but cheated during Latin exam and second never cheated but with no experience in IT, then I'd obviously chose first one.
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Doomforge
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posted November 11, 2010 04:53 PM |
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@Joonas: That would imply you'd have to know exactly what orders will you receive in the future, what tasks, etc. It's not possible so your statement seems incorrect.
For example, I had absolutely no clue that I would be forced to learn that garbage I'm forced to when starting at Warsaw Tech. 1st year didn't indicate so, too.
After three years I meet this garbage. And what should I do?
a) learn by rote, be cool, be goody-two shoe boy fulfilling orders and feeling ethically superior to "cheaters" because of that? Thanks, I don't see a reason to boost my ego with such trivialities, and I have better things to do in my life than to waste it on some garbage I will forget the instant I pass the exam.
b) Use my brain and get around it, "cheating" (Who am I cheating, exactly? nobody.) which will allow me to continue studying without wasting my brain cells on a boring, pointless task
c) Refuse to do so and get kicked out of University? After three years, that would make them a massive waste of time.
As you can see, point B is best, objectively.
And I don't exist to serve my "master", employer. I'm as important as he is and we can only cooperate well if we both don't forget this.
This means he should refrain from giving me pointless (logically) tasks and I should not act against him because I don't like what is done.
Once he breaks his "side" of that unsigned contract by ordering me to do something stupid, I'm entitled to do the same.
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JoonasTo
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posted November 11, 2010 05:16 PM |
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If you sign in to develop software that means you develop software and if your employer asks you to eat crap you don't have to agree to it. If you refuse and he fires you you can take it to court.
You signed in to warsaw tech to study engineering by the methods they teach there. That you didn't know how what it includes is your own fault. It isn't their job to teach every kid on the street how things are done at their school. It's the job of those interested to find out.
If you forget "the garbage" after the exam it's a fault in your study mechanisms and you should review them.
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And I don't exist to serve my "master", employer. I'm as important as he is and we can only cooperate well if we both don't forget this.
This means he should refrain from giving me pointless (logically) tasks and I should not act against him because I don't like what is done.
Once he breaks his "side" of that unsigned contract by ordering me to do something stupid, I'm entitled to do the same.
That depends on what you sign up for, if you sign up for servant then you do. If you sign up to design bridges then you don't. But if your employer wants you to design a bridge over from his bedroom to his neighbours bedroom then that's what you will do. Even if you think it's illogical and pointless.
You better learn that as long as a contract isn't signed on black and white you're going to get snowed over. I know that living in the slavic culture that's not the custom instead of having a dinner to talk it over but then you better start taping your dinners.
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Doomforge
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posted November 11, 2010 05:22 PM |
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If you sign in to develop software that means you develop software and if your employer asks you to eat crap you don't have to agree to it. If you refuse and he fires you you can take it to court.
True.
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You signed in to warsaw tech to study engineering by the methods they teach there. That you didn't know how what it includes is your own fault. It isn't their job to teach every kid on the street how things are done at their school. It's the job of those interested to find out.
I disagree. Their role is to teach me, not fill my head with pointless numbers and names I will forget very fast. If they fail at teaching, I see no reason to play along.
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If you forget "the garbage" after the exam it's a fault in your study mechanisms and you should review them.
Yeah, and you surely remember everything you have learned by rote since elementary school.
If you never learned by rote, your schooling system is superior, so you shouldn't compare it to mine, or your situation to mine.
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That depends on what you sign up for, if you sign up for servant then you do.
No, this doesn't depend on anything. I-am-not-a-slave-of-someone's-whim never "depends" on anything. Unless you have no dignity, but I'm sure you have a lot.
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If you sign up to design bridges then you don't. But if your employer wants you to design a bridge over from his bedroom to his neighbours bedroom then that's what you will do. Even if you think it's illogical and pointless.
True. If he tells me to learn by rote every second word of his newest college manual, I will however refuse.
That's more or less what the college - claiming to teach me - demands me to do.
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You better learn that as long as a contract isn't signed on black and white you're going to get snowed over. I know that living in the slavic culture that's not the custom instead of having a dinner to talk it over but then you better start taping your dinners.
I don't need to learn how to be a perfect slave.
You may start training if that's your desire, however. Good luck.
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JoonasTo
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posted November 11, 2010 07:06 PM |
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So you know what's up with this it's DF's answer to me in HCM and we agreed I'm going to reply to it here.
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Look Joonas, we usually agree - but I don't see a reason why should I agree now.. If someone orders me to do something pointless - I will refuse and I don't give a damn if he likes it or not. Because of dignity, because of self-esteem. Because I value my time and don't care about mr.employer's whims. If he and I cooperate and he gives me good tasks - no prob. I take it you never worked much? Myself, I'm working at telematics company as sort of specialist. I'm given a task - a project - that has to do with client's demands. CLIENT, not my boss. Because it's client that pays, not the boss, thus it's client's whim that we fulfill and not some stupid bored allpowerful bureaucrat.
And you're trying to prove I should fulfill some "contract" ? My contract specifies that I'm to do projects that are within the range of my abilities. That's all. My "boss" would never want me to do some idiocy "because he can" - it doesn't work that way, and I have absolutely NO need or necessity to do so, contrary to what you think. We generally treat each other with respect, as partners, not as "boss vs minions" attitude.
As for school, he doesn't give a damn how I passed exams. What I know is much more important to him And guess what, whether I know about rail switches or not doesn't matter to him one tiny bit, much as expected given what branch I'm working in.
So what are you exactly trying to prove?
Do you get your pay from the client or from the company you work in?
If you answer the client then how much are you paying the company to find you those jobs? Probably some percentage of the job'sa pay. In that case you're a customer to the company not an employee and that makes the case all different.
If you get your pay from the company then your boss does have the right to order you around. Obviously he can't order you to clean toilets if your job is to design bridges. But he can order you to design bridges that are completely illogical and useless, like the one from his bedroom to the neighbours house.
As long as your boss is an ok guy and not having the worst day of his life what the contract says doesn't matter. But if you are working under a jackass who happens to be in a bad mood then it's very important what it says. If your contract says "designing bridges" you're good to do but if your contract says "anything he is able to do without risking his life" you're screwed. In theory he could put you to clean the toilets and if you refused he could fire you based on refusing to do the work you've agreed to. Generally people don't but generally people aren't maniac killers either, yet we get those once in a while.
If your boss doesn't give a damn about whether you know about rail switches and if yourself don't give a damn about rail switches then why are you studying rail switches? What is the point of getting a paper proving you know something about rail switches when you don't? If you get a job where you need to know about rail switches you're going to have to learn about them anyways.
Only logical reason coming to mind is if knowing about rail switches is required in your field of study. Then it comes to mind if you're in the right field of study. If you are then we come to the conclusion that your school sucks, which we pretty much know already.
As to what I'd do if I was you, I'd pass the course about rail switches with low grades without cheating because it has no effect whatsoever.
PS. I've worked about a year in my life.
Plus the kind of work where you don't get paid of course. 
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Doomforge
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posted November 11, 2010 07:31 PM |
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Sorry about the quotes, but it's sort of hard to address multiple points without them. I'll try not to overquote.
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Do you get your pay from the client or from the company you work in?If you answer the client then how much are you paying the company to find you those jobs? Probably some percentage of the job'sa pay. In that case you're a customer to the company not an employee and that makes the case all different.
If you get your pay from the company then your boss does have the right to order you around. Obviously he can't order you to clean toilets if your job is to design bridges. But he can order you to design bridges that are completely illogical and useless, like the one from his bedroom to the neighbours house.
And he will go bankrupt pretty soon by such things.
Some things to consider:
- A boss asking his employers to do ridiculous stuff would quickly lose credibility in their eyes, and would be considered an idiot. If people consider you an idiot, they will defy you openly or do their work against you. In such case, if the "boss" wouldn't bankrupt from ridiculous, inefficient projects like this, he would suffer because of his workers acting against him and would bankrupt sooner or later because of inefficient work. No sane person wants that.
So I wouldn't worry about idiotic orders from my "superiors", nor prepare for them in the future. Unlikely to happen, if not pretty much in the "never-happening" category.
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As long as your boss is an ok guy and not having the worst day of his life what the contract says doesn't matter. But if you are working under a jackass who happens to be in a bad mood then it's very important what it says. If your contract says "designing bridges" you're good to do but if your contract says "anything he is able to do without risking his life" you're screwed. In theory he could put you to clean the toilets and if you refused he could fire you based on refusing to do the work you've agreed to. Generally people don't but generally people aren't maniac killers either, yet we get those once in a while.
Few things to consider again:
1. nobody forces you to work for a jackass.
2. people that work with you will usually inform you your boss is a jackass, sooner or later.
3. "demonic boss" is an exaggeration. How often does THAT happen? mvass would probably give you a lecture here about why it is inefficient to be an angry, snarling butthole of a boss. People that want to maximize profit can't act like I-rule-the-world butt holes, you know. In capitalism this is ineffective, in socialism there are rules set against it. In most countries it's a combination of those two.
4. Signing a piece of paper doesn't make you to do things morally condemning. There is a department of employers rights and no so called "boss" can overuse his abilities - it's easy to end up in court by doing so.
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If your boss doesn't give a damn about whether you know about rail switches and if yourself don't give a damn about rail switches then why are you studying rail switches?
I ask that questions myself every day.
Guess what, I can't decide on what I study. I have a set program of things required of me to pass and can't change that. Not like I made a CHOICE of studying it.
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What is the point of getting a paper proving you know something about rail switches when you don't?If you get a job where you need to know about rail switches you're going to have to learn about them anyways.
The paper actually makes me a transport specialist, not rail switch specialist. Transport is very broad subject and contains trillions of different branches, most of which aren't in the program anyway. Just because some old geezer considers his part - the railroad - overly important and considers rail switches that important IN the railroad topic - doesn't mean that's actually true.
I'm not going to get a job that requires me to know anything about rail switches because I'm on "telematics" speciality, not "railroad logistics" or "railroad management" specialty. This means I'm not entitled to work at places that require those specialties anyway. Which leads me to a point that it's useless.
Besides, even for people who actually ARE on railroad specialty, consider this: they still don't know how they work and how are they used. They only know their names and numbers, provided they still remember them after finishing the college. You could as well check those in a catalog if you were EVER required to work with them. Knowing what are they for would seem pretty much more useful, and guess what: it's either omitted, or not explained properly. But you have a nice table of names to learn by rote
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Only logical reason coming to mind is if knowing about rail switches is required in your field of study. Then it comes to mind if you're in the right field of study. If you are then we come to the conclusion that your school sucks, which we pretty much know already.
Yup. hence I cheat. And it doesn't make me a thief, sucky employer or other things people claimed here already. It just means I'm not going to learn something that's:
a) not a part of my speciality, YET REQUIRED in the "general program" I have to pass.
b) boring and useless, I will never work in that field because I actually can't.
And since they force me to, I'm taking the "easy way". Pretty simple.
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As to what I'd do if I was you, I'd pass the course about rail switches with low grades without cheating because it has no effect whatsoever.
You're welcome to. As I proved here (I hope) however, it's a waste of time and will never reflect upon any part of my life.
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del_diablo
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posted November 18, 2010 07:22 PM |
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/weirdnewsvideo/8140456/200-students-admit-cheating-after-professors-online-rant.html
200 studens collapsed to the guys pressure, and admitted it.
I never got to listed to the clip, but he is a quite admireable speecher.
So I would assume roughly 230-250 cheated, out of roughly 600 was it? That ironically makes colleratal damage acceptable, but just barely.
Now, judging from his speech: He has NO snowING IDEA who cheated, he just knows that roughly X to Y has cheated. I am sort of interisited if there was a better way of solving this than massive attempts at collateral damage.
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friendofgunnar
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posted November 18, 2010 08:55 PM |
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Interesting topic here Corribus 
First of all, the students backtalk struck me as idiotic. (actually it sounds exactly like what somebody of that age would say  ). The whole point of college is to teach to the student information and then assess how well they absorbed it. If the student's assertion is taken at face value then there's no point in handing out grades at all.
About halfway through my academic trajectory I stopped caring about grades and started taking from school what I wanted. Sometimes this meant blowing off projects, sometimes it meant not reading books that bored me, mostly it meant ignoring test questions I disliked.
If you don't want to learn something then don't. Leave that question blank. You should be honest in your disregard for what they're trying to teach you. By the same token if something in a class intrigues you then you should use the opportunity to learn as much as you can. If you have to spend X amount of minutes each day learning something then try expanding your learning beyond what's happening in the class. I've found that teachers appreciate being engaged, even if its not in the structured way they originally planned. It's ironic that even though I stopped caring about tests I still kept getting halfway decent grades.
~on the other hand~
I understand that one the main points of college is to see how well a person will conform to society's demands, and society's demands are quite often retarded. So basically while I would fully endorse the idea that people should be fully honest in what they are and aren't learning I would understand the pressure that would lead conformist minded individuals to cheat.
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Doomforge
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posted November 18, 2010 09:25 PM |
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If you don't want to learn something then don't.
You do realize that failing a few courses usually means being kicked out of college?
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JoonasTo
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posted November 18, 2010 09:35 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 21:37, 18 Nov 2010.
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Failing a few courses usually does NOT mean getting kicked out of college.
That's kind of your privilege in the louse school systems.
And there isn't a big studying needed for getting lousy grades isntead of failing. You'll pass most course if you just bother to sit in the lections.
Or you could read an hour or two to get the same result and not go to the lection.
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Doomforge
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posted November 18, 2010 09:51 PM |
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Failing a few courses usually does NOT mean getting kicked out of college.
Well here it does.
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And there isn't a big studying needed for getting lousy grades isntead of failing. You'll pass most course if you just bother to sit in the lections.
Not if you study here
Trust me, you won't get jack **** from sitting there in my college ^_^
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Or you could read an hour or two to get the same result and not go to the lection.
If it would be that easy nobody would bother with cheating, trust me.
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Seraphim
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posted November 20, 2010 02:46 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 02:50, 20 Nov 2010.
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Who gives a damn if you got your diploma while cheating on some of your exams.
Just because of the absurd academic sytem,students are put to learn stuff they wont use after they finish academics.Honestly,the idea with Minors is an issue.Why should I take a minor?I want to get my diploma as fast as i can,and to do that I have to take a course that I dont care,just because of some imaginary points?
Not to begin with major exams,that in someway are inpractical.Nobody is ever gonna ask you all of those things and yet I am forced to learn mind raping formulas on math.
Honeslty,is there anybody who finished uni and used 100% to what you learned there?
I have seen people become doctors while cheating.Sure,those would be people to whom you would not put your life at risk,but how would you know?
After treating 100 pacients in "Someways",even those with no, knowledge know what to prescribe to pacients.21st centry doctors.
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Doomforge
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posted November 20, 2010 04:58 PM |
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Who gives a damn if you got your diploma while cheating on some of your exams.
Who gives a damn if you got a diploma by learning by rote everything they claimed important, including the mark III Ie-u5494 railway nail types consisting of 9586 models, but it's completely useless in what you are SUPPOSED to do at work?
Who gives a damn about your diploma if you only know how to learn by rote and have 0 ability for logical thinking and problem solving?
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I have seen people become doctors while cheating.Sure,those would be people to whom you would not put your life at risk,but how would you know?
After treating 100 pacients in "Someways",even those with no, knowledge know what to prescribe to pacients.21st centry doctors.
Medicine is unique. A doctor NEEDS every piece of info to be a better doctor. A cheating "doctor" will cause more harm then good.
However, how do you compare medicine with BS I'm fed up in my college? What's the use for me, telematics specialist, to know 84769837 rail switches or whatever?
Waste of my life.
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Seraphim
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posted November 20, 2010 11:29 PM |
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Medicine is unique. A doctor NEEDS every piece of info to be a better doctor. A cheating "doctor" will cause more harm then good.
Unique? Not really,I have been prescribed the wrong medication a couple of times by doctors.Did they care?No.
Can I put them on court?No,I dont have the money.Besides,to actually win the case,I would be supposed to die so that they would have an argument of taking the issue seriously.
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del_diablo
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posted November 21, 2010 03:58 AM |
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Well, theoretically doctors should be protected against courth cases.
If you treat more than a certain number of people, the law of large numbers dictate that you must do a error once in a while, which means you WILL mess up.
A good setup medical system will have routines which will limit the chance of this happening, and the damage when it firsts happens. It would also run stateistics over the doctors and investigate without a fail when things start getting out of the normal proportions.
But the most important thing for doctors is lots of lots of lots of extra schooling, the ability to properly do what they specialize in, if their not normal doctors whos job is to do some basic analyze before sending the patient's to the right instances.
If a person cheated on something he really needs to become a specialized doctor, then that cheater would more or less fail quite quickly, or learn to do it properly quite fast. And yes, if he got the job its his own fault for not having the skills, the place he was educated for not spotting it, and the place he was hired for not spotting it either. In this case the place hirering should mark him as a somebody without proper knowledge before firering the sod, which now has a invalid diploma for failing at doing it right.
But to be completely honest: If you are learning something you do not need to know later on by root, then the education instance is doing something very wrong. Even worse example: Studing before a test to throw as much mumbo jumbo into the brains temporal storage, nailing the test, but forgetting everthing roughly seconds after the test is over.
In the end, I don't think it matters if people actually cheat on something like that, they would in essence fail it anyhow if it was a surprise test.
I am not defending cheating, but at the end of the day in a lot of cases, it would not matter if they cheated or failed at education(must not be confused with actually failing at enough courses and then fail education).
As for a exam, a exam is suppose to be something where the students show of their capabilities, and work hard. The entire idea behind a exam is ridiculed by cheating, so its a.... more despicable yet fun issue.
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