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| Thread: (H3 Complete) The Cold Shoulder |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted November 16, 2010 11:31 AM |
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Edited by Gibblets at 11:42, 24 Nov 2010.
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(H3 Complete) The Cold Shoulder
I made this map a few years back which has given me a lot of time to test it and I think it's ready for the community to play and comment on.
It's a single player, story driven campaign. (the first of at least 3 maps) It was made with expert players in mind, I tried to make it a consistent challenge all the way through. You start with a single hero in the bottom left corner of the map where you need to find a town and then conquer the immediate area around said town. Then you need to defeat the 3 Fortress team areas/towns which have unique terrain from each other and also have different creatures. For instance one of the fortress teams only has access to Hydras and Lizardmen, while another is just Dragon Flies and Wyverns, and the last one is, Gnolls Basilisks and Gorgons. After collecting each teams border guard you get access to the final boss fight.
Keep in mind I spent a lot of time on this map (placing everything by hand) and therefore I've incorporated quite a few secrets and "invisible" paths through the swamps and underground.
Please leave feedback as I have aspirations to make maps professionally one day and every comment is useful. Thank You.
 *WARNING* SPOILERS in the following posts. Read at your own risk 
THE LINK to the 7th version http://www.sendspace.com/file/s5eq8g
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If it's true that our species is alone in the Universe, then I'd have to say the Universe aimed low, and settled for very little. - George Carlin
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2010 03:16 PM |
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I'll give it a try when I have some free time and will give you some feedback. Should I post it here or keep it private ?
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 16, 2010 05:09 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 17:12, 16 Nov 2010.
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I gave it a try, on 200%.
On day 8, orange came through oneway monolith (he entered it just north in the snow area) where swamp area starts with 8 hydras and stuff. Game over. Is it supposed to be that way?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted November 16, 2010 06:06 PM |
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Edited by Gibblets at 18:22, 16 Nov 2010.
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Well I've never played it on 200%, I always played it on normal because it's tough enough as is. So it's my fault for not specifying this earlier, sorry. However the only reason I have the one way portal (red) is for player convenience once you capture the swamp towns. It cuts down on slogging travel time through that swamp for creature resupplies. However, I just changed the map so that what happened to you will not happen again here's the updated link to download.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/nh0mu4
Or if you don't want to download a new version just move the red entrance in the top middle swamp area a few squares to the left and put it behind the purple border guard and delete the three angels that were guarding it.
Thanks for testing the map
@pacifist- You can comment in this thread, I have nothing to hide. Besides it'll keep all comments together and be a nice change log for me.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2010 06:34 PM |
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Yes I just looked in the editor to see what was the problem and it's simply that orange can pass the red one-way gate without needing the purple keymaster's tent key. He just needs to visit white tent, pick the ressource and pass on day 2 if he wants  . Maybe that's the only change needed for now. The angels are maybe not enough also because the AI does not really make the fights and will pass very soon normally.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 17, 2010 09:20 AM |
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Edited by pacifist at 10:01, 17 Nov 2010.
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Your new version has the same problem. Orange player breaks with Wystan passing by the white tent not the gate guarded by angels. Since they are in alliance he can pass the garrison and take all that was meant to belong to human player (ie, the 5 zealots join him). After taking all the goods the just needs to take one-way portal to crush human player.
Did you really play the map before? It never happened to you even on normal difficulty? Even on normal difficulty you should have seen that there is a problem since the orange player was there just way long before you and you still need to break through the serpent flies and dragonflies and then the wizard...
edit: the wizard Hallon is not blocking anything also since we (or orange player) can take the chest near him and open path.
edit2 : Now I'm afraid that if you fix this, the map goes from impossible to too easy. Two reasons : AI blocked with only 3 main troops is easily vulnerable to blind even if he has cure or dispel spells because only one main troop needs to be disabled to blind the rest in 2 rounds. Also berserk poses a problem, maybe disable it too? Guess it's a luck factor if human player has blind spell in guild. Also in +- 3 weeks human player will become unstoppable once he reaches 2nd castle town...
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted November 17, 2010 05:35 PM |
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Edited by Gibblets at 18:08, 17 Nov 2010.
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I really did play this map to the point of nausea, however, I'm embarassed to say during one of my idle tinkering sessions I removed a piece of blocker terrain that led to the white tent which you spoke of earlier. So I'm going to play it again and make sure no one else gets subjected to BS like this.
Thanks for telling me what has been happening.
Edit: I never thought about the spells which could easily IMBA the mechanic I was trying to highlight. This map is mostly focused on the overpowered nature of the Prayer spell. I disabled frenzy, blind and hypnotize globally since they are too powerful vs any of the three Fortress teams
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 17, 2010 06:01 PM |
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Yeah, we all think our maps are playable until the Pacifists runs them. Then it is edit time.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted November 17, 2010 06:10 PM |
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Edited by Gibblets at 19:00, 17 Nov 2010.
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I'm glad to have the scrutiny. With every change this gets better and better.
I looked over the map again since I won't have time to play it for a couple of days and found a few other things that needed changing.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/o4r30r
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If it's true that our species is alone in the Universe, then I'd have to say the Universe aimed low, and settled for very little. - George Carlin
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 17, 2010 11:02 PM |
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Edited by pacifist at 23:29, 17 Nov 2010.
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Ah, yes the monolith one-way leading nowhere I forgot but you changed it . It seems it can be played now with the new changes.
Just some more suggestions, orbservations from what I've seen so far :
The area where the angels guarded the monolith seems now empty, maybe add some "thing" for eye-candy purposes
The warrior's tomb has a chance to give a relic, can give Tome of fire or other relic you don't want the player to have, so maybe change the warrior's tomb or disable some more relics from appearing.
You disabled berserk from castle towns but allowed it in wizard town?
Maybe not give Tome of fire to AI hero but give him the spells instead so the player cannot profit from it later. But if you think the player needs fire magic for later (maybe I missed something) then make it the last orange player and add another color guard. Keep in mind there is a trick to learn spells from tomes with eagle eye heroes and scholar and if it's the first map of a campaign then those disabled spells will be carried to the next stage by main heroes .
The pool of available heroes has some special heroes that can change the dynamic of the map, maybe by not much but still. Those are Dracon, Gelu and Gem (summon boat).
Well, that's all for now from memory, time to play a little now .
edit : how to access black tent? I though you wanted a hero to block monolith exit so the other can pass but still not possible. The rally flag blocks the way. Did you add something later after your tests? Or do I miss something? It seems to me it can't be completed without dimension door or fly ?
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 18, 2010 12:16 AM |
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A good mapmaker needs a good tester, but also a good tester needs a good mapmaker 
Keep the good work
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Era II mods and utilities
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted November 18, 2010 04:44 AM |
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Edited by Gibblets at 04:51, 18 Nov 2010.
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Okay here's the change log for this round
-removed Arti Merchant
-removed Tomb of Warrior and replaced with Altar of Sacrifice
-removed Tomb of fire Magic on Beast Master Hero and replaced with Orb of Vulnerability
-Moved rally Flag out of way (this one is particularily lame on my part, I should have noticed)
-Disabled the aforementioned heroes globally
-Removed certain artifacts to prevent heroes from creating combination arties
The other maps feature different heroes and factions to paint a full picture of the events unfolding.
For the record I started by disabling the spells in individual towns but remembered I now have Heroes complete (just got it 3 weeks ago. I've been using RoE up until now) So I checked them off in the Map Properties tap.
I agree with you wholeheartedly Salamandre. It's the missing piece of my puzzle. As the map creator I have a biased and privileged POV when it comes to testing my maps and it creates a dangerous form of tunnel-vision.
4th version http://www.sendspace.com/file/rxwvuu
BTW, for ppl following this I update the link in my first post as well as to my most recent every time I make a change to the map.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 18, 2010 10:10 AM |
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Edited by pacifist at 16:55, 18 Nov 2010.
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Quote:
Okay here's the change log for this round
-removed Arti Merchant
-removed Tomb of Warrior and replaced with Altar of Sacrifice
-removed Tomb of fire Magic on Beast Master Hero and replaced with Orb of Vulnerability
-Moved rally Flag out of way (this one is particularily lame on my part, I should have noticed)
-Disabled the aforementioned heroes globally
-Removed certain artifacts to prevent heroes from creating combination arties
The other maps feature different heroes and factions to paint a full picture of the events unfolding.
For the record I started by disabling the spells in individual towns but remembered I now have Heroes complete (just got it 3 weeks ago. I've been using RoE up until now) So I checked them off in the Map Properties tap.
Validate map gives another error with access to mystical garden near one of orange towns because the path is blocked by a brush you added in last version.
So there are 2 orbs of vulnerability now? One on orange hero and another one in event?
I saw that Wystan had the bow of the sharpshooter but I thought you wanted it that way so I didn't comment that. But now you don't want combination artifacts but the missing piece still can appear everywhere (starting bonus, wagon cart, chest in water, ship, etc). You have to disable the pieces globaly in the main menu too to be sure. There is no guarantee the player will not make a combination artifact (armor of the damned for ex).
Astral is still too weak compared to the player when he will meet him and he persists in going recruit mages and golems and if player is out of reach (but he will have dimension door later) he stays there to hire diamond golems while he has a full tower setup, that will allow the player to sneak in easily. Why not give him by repeated events the troops he is able to recruit and make him stand still ?
Halon is also a very weak hero with only one spell, it's almost the same as a garrison with stone's skin units .
I'm not sure it's the right place to discuss the map since there are many spoilers for the reader. Or maybe change the title and put spoiler and map in testing phase? I think the map can be played now (with maybe the path to mystical garden repaired) but it's still very far from the challenge to expert players you have in mind.
I have still many more observations but I'm not sure it's what you want since you will have more work and more testing will be necessary after each change.
edit : Ok, back from work . I changed 3 little things in editor and will start a new game : event after dragonflies before meeting wizard Halon (changed resposnible by responsible), deleted brush before mystic garden, and gave ownership of gem mine in Astral zone to teal player.
Astral with radius 10 has no access it seems to it and neither to nagas and genies dwellings but I let the radius as it is, maybe 15 to 20 can be ok but I didn't test it because the tome of air makes things more complicated...
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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Coconut
Hired Hero
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posted November 18, 2010 08:22 PM |
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Quote:
I'm not sure it's the right place to discuss the map since there are many spoilers for the reader.
I guess any reader will realize that danger if reading a thread where a map is being tested!
It's a great looking map, by the way. I had it on my harddrive already for a while, but still had sort of overlooked it, I think I had been put off a bit by those areas where every tile has a road, like the snowy north-east.
But took a second look, and it really is a beatiful map, it certainly shows that every square has been hand-painted.
The map is certainly worth this effort you're giving it here!
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 18, 2010 10:39 PM |
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Edited by pacifist at 22:50, 18 Nov 2010.
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To beat the serpent flies and dragonflies I had to play with bad morale because I had trogs, harpies, gnolls, archers and swordman and Rae-Anna was faster than Sir Mullich with expert pathfinding and expert logistics. I lost all free marksman in first hive fight and lost almost all archers in the next two and the 3 next fights but that was a low cost . Lost some wyverns but I was careless at that point since objective was close.
Playing in normal mode it's very easy to have crusaders and marksman instead. Still the fights are not easy since Rae-Anna doesn't have tactics like in a previous game. I had 20 swordman join in this game while it was 10 and 12 in other games (previous maps). Very random, I would have prefered a fixed number.
Captured 2nd town on day 1-2-6, not possible then to build castle there so I build castle in original town with monks. Captured the 2 angel dwellings on 1-2-7 so now on day 1-3-1 I can have 10 angels + one conservatory to visit yet. I guess from there the rest will be easy
saves day 1 and day 15 :
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/25263652/TCS_1-1-1.GM1
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/25263653/TCS_1-3-1.GM1
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted November 19, 2010 06:21 AM |
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Okay well I've got a lot of information to pass on here so this may be a long post. First off, my recent change log.
-Rearranged the terrain around Mystical Garden.
-Only one orb of Vulnerability in game now
-The artifacts were already disabled globally, I forgot and over-reacted by deleting the 5% archery skills Bow. Restored it.
-I took your advice about assigning Astral a creature growth through events instead of having to collect them, and increased the numbers of creatures he'll get every week. (Good Idea BTW)
-Removed the dwellings in Astrals' area
-I carefully selected Halons spells
-Added some more eye candy to the map and removed some visual clutter that has plagued certain areas.
-Changed ownership of the gem mine...
-Astral has 1 radius now
-Changed the error in responsible
-Removed Magic Wells in the three Fortress areas, to emphasize the one in the middle where they converge and to make sure the player has to be more mindful of mana usage.
HAHA that's the trade off with the Hives, either keep archers or go for Flying Melee, depends on your play style. Personally, I leave them alone.
I find the swordsman numbers to be somewhat irrelevant, a difference of 8 or less shouldn't make or break this game. If it's that close then it's too hard.
When I said expert difficulty I was talking about myself and I obviously considered myself an expert at H3. But in hindsight maybe it's a map for advanced players
That's pretty much the idea with the angels and conservatories, Cloud 8.5 really adds a substantial lvl7 presence to your armies.
I'm quite alright discussing this here. It may encourage others to become involved in this project. As well I will add a disclaimer to my original post.
The Link http://www.sendspace.com/file/pj6vvn
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 19, 2010 07:00 AM |
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Maps should be always tested on 160% and up. It is not about the difficulty but how IA thinking radius was implemented. It is so crippled at lower difficulties that he will not go where you think he should go, nor build what you think he should. Then if one player decides to play at 200%, unexpected things will happen.
Test it at 200%, and if everything goes as expected, then anyone at 100% will be able too.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Gibblets
Adventuring Hero
Spontaneously Coherent Typist
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posted November 19, 2010 07:19 AM |
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That's good to know Salamandre, I had no idea that's the way it worked.
Oh and thank you Coconut, your comments on my map mean a lot.
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pacifist
Famous Hero
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posted November 19, 2010 09:47 AM |
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Hum, many changes, this needs serious testing and play the map several times. Maybe you were too generous in troops for Astral now?.
He will have 6 titans/week and I don't speak of the rest of the army.
I don't think he will assemble the Titans'thunder but there is a risk then he will never run out of mana. Why give him hypnotize scroll ? He has this spell in 3 different ways now .
When I said to disable blind it was considering the map at that moment but with that big change maybe the player will need a disabling spell or the game will last very long.
You said you disabled artifact combos in general but I don't see where. You just disabled the combined artifacts not the individual pieces or at least one of them. Also Berserk is disabled in town but not in general so the random scholar can give it too. But Maybe it's needed now vs Astral with the orb of vulnerability.
It seems to me changing things like that create confusion, balance goes in everyway. Changes must be finetuned to reach perfect challenge. The player should be able to win wihtout the need of a specific spell, have several strategies that can lead to victory not a forced one. Although of course, he needs to have a difficult challenge at higher difficulties .
A good way to test is to setup the map for multiplayer so the mapmaker can see what the AI does. Example, you begin the map on impossible mode, then let pass some days or weeks and then load the autosave but on multiplayer mode and take an AI color. Now you see, what he did, did he buy all troops, etc. Now at the same time you evaluate the players progression, stats, etc and decide if it's playable. Then back to single player mode, use some cheats , for ex, nwcgrail to give the player the stats and troops you want and try the fight, etc,...
I am not sure of the radius thing but I remember some weird things can happen with dimension door and an AI hero with limited radius. Not sure it was with H2 or H3. Astral simply does not need the 2 tomes, just give him the spells you want like for Halon and that's enough .
Well, just some thoughts from memory ...
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http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u
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Coconut
Hired Hero
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posted November 19, 2010 01:12 PM |
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Edited by Coconut at 13:14, 19 Nov 2010.
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Salamandre's insights are very valuable for me as well! I seem to be in a spell of map making myself, but until now I just held an on and off interest in the Heroes games, so there's still lots I can learn.
I'm sorry I can't download this map and join in, I have only internet access at the library and file sharing sites are banned there. I hope the map will keep its distinct RoE flavour; especially the old palm trees gave it that feel; most newer maps feature the newer marsh vegetation.
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