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| Thread: Some thoughts in favor Of God |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Mytical
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posted November 17, 2010 11:27 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:29, 17 Nov 2010.
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While we have a religion thread going..I want to put forward a theory about the discrepancy between how long the bible 'says' the earth has been around vs what scientist seem now to believe.
A lot of people use the 'a day didn't mean a day' argument, but I think that is a little..questionable myself. No..the theory (which currently is not testable, but who knows...one day it might be) I would put forth is about the Garden of Eden.
To the best of my knowledge...it never specifies how long Adam was in the garden before Eve..nor how long both of them were around before the apple was eaten and god tossed them out.
My current theory is that since both were immortal until tossed out..that any amount of time could have conceivably passed while they were in Eden. They had no 'carnal' urges at the time, so no children would have been had either. Note it was not until they ate the apple that they were 'doomed to die'. They were basically the same physical age once they left the garden as the day they were 'created' by 'God'.
Think of the apple like a poison or something similar. After they ate it they started to 'die' from the poison in the apple. Before that, they didn't even keep track of time. They had no need.
I know, I know. I'm just a loony person, carry on about your business 
PS. They wouldn't have known or been affected by what was going on 'outside' of Eden. They were 'protected' (so yes they could have been around when the asteroid destroyed the dinosaurs, because it wouldn't even cause them to 'sneeze' as they were protected).
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markkur
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posted November 17, 2010 12:49 PM |
bonus applied by Mytical on 17 Nov 2010. |
Edited by markkur at 13:01, 17 Nov 2010.
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At the time I was confused about something, much like a few people here on the forums  . I couldn't separate the people from the religion. I didn't yet understand that people are flawed, and that they can and will twist ANYTHING to further their agenda.
One of the worst things about using the "Word" is 'how it is used'.
I believe the book to be ...of spirit. So if I go to it in the wrong spirit I WILL do damage...and I have done just that. Going to the words looking for a passage to "bolster my argument". Not always from always an evil motive but I was always in ignorance whenever I approached in that manner. Cutting out one verse without seeing the world around the verse was NOT beyond me for a time. A universal step on a universal path? Maybe.
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One of the people in my church..who everybody lovingly called 'Brother Joe' started to have issues with Alcoholism. He left the church for awhile, and lost just about everything. His wife left him, taking the children, he lost his house .. and such.
After cleaning himself up somewhat, and fighting to stay sober, he returned to the church. Everybody turned their back on him. When he needed people the most. I was taught that you never turn your back on somebody..and my faith was shaken to its core.
Mine would have been too and has in other ways. Imagine for a moment how many of us have been broken-hearted. It was a broken heart that led me to the cross. I grew up in a world void of "Church". Early on I thought this a disadvantage...later I realized it took the form of a blessing, because I came to the words of Christ without someone else's "invisible shackles". I know you know what I mean by that and need not expand.
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Left the church, even got into the occult for a bit. Troubled youth, all that. Finally though, do to other issues I started researching meditation..and with that led to me studying other religions.
"Seek ye first"...no easy task
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It took awhile, but it finally dawned on me. No religion has successfully explain WHY their religion is 'better' then any other. Without using things like 'this verse, or this person (etc) told me so'.
I have no answers. Seems human nature for us to "share our Gold" even when it may be dung to another. Connecting is difficult even with like minds. I think there are differences but they have to be looked for? A Faith can want a Theocracy...Jesus apparently did not. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars" Also, I can think of no other Faith where God died for his children. The Gauls. Celts and Germanic tribes thought this a serious sign of weakness.
Maybe, the most striking thing about the cross is there is nothing for me to do. "Grace". What a foreign concept this was for me, coming from a world where I was ever trying to "Earn Love" and most often to little or no avail.
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Taking my personal experiences..I have come to the conclusion that 1) There is SOMETHING out there. What? I don't have a clue. Since I have seen spirits, had my experiences where 'something' was guiding what I was saying or doing, and had other experiences that was the only conclusion I could reach.
I've had some experiences that might not ever be "explained". In an effort to be light-hearted and sound less serious. Have you thought about God in this fashion? God or God plural, whatever, came from where? Vastly superior intelligence beyond my current capabilities.
I used to do the "what if?" thing all the time. But, now I'm at peace and tired of wrestling. I am a grain of sand on a very large beach. Cannot something as silly as that be a solid bit of wisdom?
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I don't fear death, I do not fear what 'punishment' or expect some 'reward' on the other side. My belief is not fear based, but just what I have come to conclude.
The problem with Christianity is not the religion. It is the 'bible thumpers' the ones that 'attack' or 'defend' (depending who you ask) themselves against the naysayers so ardently that they come across as jerks and idiots. Giving people a very negative view of Christianity. The ones who can not separate the 'belief' or 'idea' from the person.
Anything Man touches can go this route. You know that. I am not Christ, and sadly, not that close to being like Him either. So I try to Obey and Not judge. But I have to admit, I do think that the hottest seats in hell (whatever that IS) will be for the wolves in sheeps clothing. It smacks of justice given on those that would harm others and betray the Faith. I may even be very wrong about that. Mercy may still be beyond my grasp.
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The ones who do not understand that anger only begets more anger. That the true lesson of Christianity is not about forcing everybody to think or believe your way, but peace and acceptance for ALL.
"Judge not least ye be judged, and found wanting."
A non-joking...Amen. Love.
Btw. I'm not RC and do not like denominations...they are divisions to me. But <IMO> one of the finest examples in modern times of Christ was Mother Teresa. Not some high-falootin scholar that knows all the words but someone like her...living the words.
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veco
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who am I?
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posted November 17, 2010 02:22 PM |
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@Mytical
We can't see far out stars and we know the reason why, we can't see God and we don't have the reason why. Thusly calling it non existent is not hubris, it's being consistent with the little knowlegde we have.
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Elodin
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posted November 17, 2010 04:11 PM |
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The fact is that you can observe them if you expend the resources and/or effort.
Nevertheless he proved his point. Just because you can't see something with your eyes or with an instrument does not mean it does not exist. There are lots of things we can "see" with instruments now that we could not see before.
However, since instruments are only designed to detect matter or energy is it really so suprising that instruments can't detect a spirit? And if God fills and transcends all of space and time even if an instrument could detect a spirit it would be unable to detect him because there would be no difference in reading at any point in the space-time continuim.
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I'm not much of a fan of when people play Devil's Advocate.
The answer to that is rather obvious - its effects can still be observed today. It's the most plausible explanation for the way things are now (including the existence of past documents talking about it).
And the existence of God best explains the universe and many things that happen in the lives of people.
The observations of the Hubble telescope and the COBE sattelite along with the laws of thermodynamics prove that not only did the universe have a beginning but that can't be eternal. All things that have a beginning need a cause. That is the very foundation of science. The material world could not cause itself. The best explaination is a uncaused, timeless, spaceless, timeless, immaterial, personal, powerful, and very knowledgeable being caused the universe to come into existence. God, as the Bible describes him.
It is simply impossible based on what we now know that something can come from absolute nothing without a cause.
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A lot of people use the 'a day didn't mean a day' argument, but I think that is a little..questionable myself. No..the theory (which currently is not testable, but who knows...one day it might be) I would put forth is about the Garden of Eden.
There are plenty of times in the Bible when a day does not mean a 24 hour period. The creation account ends without the 7th day being declared over. Paul writes that wer are in the "Day of salvation."
2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
If you read Hebrews chapter 4 you find that in fact the Bible considers us to still be in the 7th day of creation. The day of reast is the day of salvation.
Your point about the Garden of Eden is good. We don't know how long they were there.
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VokialBG
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posted November 17, 2010 04:23 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 16:24, 17 Nov 2010.
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11 of 12 men died for a lie.
Depending on how you look on it. Christianity started as Jewish sect, Jesus and the twelve disciples (apostles) were using it against the Roman Empire to free their people buy using the power if their own nation and the others chained in the Empire. That's why in the beginning Christianity was religion of the poor. If you read the Book of Revelation and think on it a bit you can get that it's about how bad the Roman Empire is and how the Christianity is going to destroy it (666 is Nero, the Harlot of Babylon has crimson clothing - that colour is symbol of the Roman Empire, Jesus is going to rule the world for 1000 years along with his followers - means the Christianity is going to replace the Empire, the Beast is the one that want to create only one state on Earth - so it's the romans, the deaths are going to revive for eternal live if they followed Jesus - so who fight for freedom never dies. And etc., and etc...).
Actually there are apostles in the Bulgarian national movement for national liberation against the Turkish slavery during XIX century (there was main one - Vassil Levski and six others), they used the same model Just not a religion but guns and plans for risings. And they all died, except 2.
Here you can ask, why was it used after the fall of the Roman Empire. Simply, the later Christianity use to say that there is one ruler in Haven (God), and the one ruler on Earth - the King/Emperor/Tsar/Keiser/Etc..., so it was used to rule the folk easier.
Having some of the valuables of the Christianity is still good. There are many.
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markkur
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posted November 17, 2010 04:31 PM |
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Understanding
@ Everyone that has posted thus far.
There are good questions or comments in this thread that I am having difficulty in keeping them in-sight. If I don’t respond to a specific thing, I could think you are not wanting any response or I may forget to respond. My apologies, the days and nights are difficult right now.
About our beginning. I have nothing to contribute. I don’t care how we got here. I’ll rephrase that; I don’t believe I have to try and discover the Truth. The Truth is; I’ve enough to deal with what is right around me, in me and doing poorly at that at times. I am the same way about leaving…the end etc.. My leaving is about: what I am leaving behind more than where I am going when I die. I’ve never sought Heaven in lieu of the Earth. My Hope is there but not my mind, nor Spirit, nor my heart.
But, and it’s a big but…that’s me. An example was well-given about Stars but a time-line was missing. We know(because we’ve been told but not seen) that there are more stars than my naked eye can see. But that has not always been true. Augustine, or Henry the 2nd could have held no such view. They were too early on the time-line. What lays ahead on it for man? Your guess is probably better than mine.
“Stars and thinking about my perceptions” I’m sitting on a chair typing this. A mass of matter sitting on another mass of matter. Then I die, my favorite chair is sold. And the room has a big chunck of space where Markkur was once boring others to tears. Holding that simple reality. I look up and see Stars. How does Space end? Markkur’s chairs forever? The solid wall of God’s basement? And no I don’t believe that but c’mon some things cannot be grasped no matter how hard I try. Yes I have indeed left things out. Why? This does not matter to me. Just like it’s often used about Faith, I like to keep “my view” short these days….things near to hand. I can deal with that.
“Spirits” Just an older word that means “emotions” and everyone knows they are very real. There was a comment about “we cannot see God.” I agree. But maybe I can get a “glimpse”?. Jesus said’ “wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name I will be in their midst” If you know His teachings believe and follow them; He is in a way, (He is called “the way“, btw) saying “Love” will be present. If God is not love to me, then this could never make any sense.
Spirit comes from the Greek and means “Breath”. OK reflect on Love. Love can reveal itself in a hug or kiss but I cannot pour it into a cup. It is invisible on its own. Same thing hate or any other emotion in life. Back to the wind. It can blow softly and cool my hot face. A strong wind may come up, blow-in rain-clouds and water my garden. It can even take the form of a tornado or Hurricane and destroy everything in its path. I have done all of that, been a blessing and a curse.
Make a great day
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1910
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posted November 17, 2010 04:32 PM |
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Look Elodin, you can't prove that God does exist just like we can't prove that God doesn't exist. It's an utterly pointless argument that will keep going around in circles. You obviously believe that God exists and that's good whereas Mvass and myself don't. Just leave it at that and just move on. Why waste time in a pointless argument that will lead nowhere?
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markkur
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posted November 17, 2010 04:54 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 16:57, 17 Nov 2010.
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[quoteDepending on how you look on it. Christianity started as Jewish sect
I agree except that is the only way that I can see it
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Jesus and the twelve disciples (apostles) were using it against the Roman Empire to free their people buy using the power if their own nation and the others chained in the Empire. That's why in the beginning Christianity was religion of the poor. If you read the Book of Revelation and think on it a bit you can get that it's about how bad the Roman Empire is and how the Christianity is going to destroy it (666 is Nero, the Harlot of Babylon has crimson clothing - that colour is symbol of the Roman Empire, Jesus is going to rule the world for 1000 years along with his followers - means the Christianity is going to replace the Empire, the Beast is the one that want to create only one state on Earth - so it's the romans, the deaths are going to revive for eternal live if they followed Jesus - so who fight for freedom never dies. And etc., and etc...).
I intend this is a respectful tone. I read and studied Revelation. I am also well aware of many opinions and beliefs that surround the book. I personally found it far more rewarding to study people of Faith. i.e Hus, Bunyan, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin etc.. Their debates, struggles, failures even, etc. IOW, I believe if I tend my own fire then I will be OK with whatever comes down the pike. As bad as this does sound, I'm just not concerned with it anymore.
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Here you can ask, why was it used after the fall of the Roman Empire. Simply, the later Christianity use to say that there is one ruler in Haven (God), and the one ruler on Earth - the King/Emperor/Tsar/Keiser/Etc..., so it was used to rule the folk easier.
Having some of the valuables of the Christianity is still good. There are many.
Yes, Christianty has been a unifying tool used by powerful rulers...several times. Constantine, Ferdinand and Isabella and others as you know.
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Elodin
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posted November 17, 2010 05:24 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:26, 17 Nov 2010.
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Depending on how you look on it. Christianity started as Jewish sect, Jesus and the twelve disciples (apostles) were using it against the Roman Empire to free their people buy using the power if their own nation and the others chained in the Empire.
Jesus did not come to start a political revolution or an earthly kingdom. None of his words can be intrepeted as such. In fact he specificly stated otherwise. Most of the Jewish people thought the Christ would come to politically free them from Rome. Those who could not get past that misconception rejected Christ. The Jews who accepted what Christ said about his mission followed him and are now known as Christians. Christians are Jews.
The kingdom of Christ is a spiritual kingdom that a person enters into through the "new birth" that Jesus preached about.
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Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
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mvassilev
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posted November 17, 2010 06:12 PM |
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Mytical:
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I just can not wrap my head around saying something doesn't exist because somebody can't observe it.
Right, and I didn't say that. I didn't say that God doesn't exist, either. We have no reason to believe in the currently unobservable - that's different. Regardless of whether God exists or not, functionally God does not exist, and that's what matters.
Elodin:
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However, since instruments are only designed to detect matter or energy is it really so suprising that instruments can't detect a spirit?
Perhaps that's because spirits don't exist.
As for the old argument about whether the universe has a beginning - I don't see why it has to. If the universe always existed, it needn't have a beginning. And even if it did have a beginning, there are ways to explain that without God. God is not a rational answer - the most you can say is "the universe came into being because of unknown reason X. The only thing we know about X is that it caused the Universe to come into being."
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Mytical
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posted November 18, 2010 01:27 AM |
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I am on the fence about if god created the universe, or that there is another reason for the existence of the universe. Both have their issues. Why could the universe have existed forever, but some being couldn't? Just because we can't?
However, I also don't understand why the universe needs a 'start', but that same being doesn't. To me you can't have it both ways. Doesn't make sense.
The same argument can be used for both. There is an argument that the effects of the 'big bang' can still be seen today. I could argue that the effects of God could explain the same thing. The reply is normally "But we can't see god, so this is the most logical explination." To which the argument could be used "We didn't, and don't, see the big bang. How is it different?"
I don't know the answers. It is logical to think that there is a beginning. Something has to have created everything, but then something logically would have to have created that. I just do not know.
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mvassilev
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posted November 18, 2010 01:31 AM |
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The difference is that God has features attributed to him other than "created the universe with the effects observed today". The Big Bang doesn't.
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Corribus
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posted November 18, 2010 01:34 AM |
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Have you ever considered that asking what came before the beginning of the Universe is a little like asking what is North of the North Pole?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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markkur
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posted November 18, 2010 02:09 AM |
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I don't know the answers. It is logical to think that there is a beginning. Something has to have created everything, but then something logically would have to have created that. I just do not know.
Welcome to the club
I do not "know" how it all started. But creating we all do. I get that. Science is brimming with "cause and effect". I used to do something called Design of Experiments. We had to control all contributing factors, to determine various issues regarding "effect".
I remember that someone said: That all we know, "just happened by chance " is about as likely as a tornado blowing through a junkyard and building a 747.
Our brains, our eyes and so much more are truly amazing to me.
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Corribus
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posted November 18, 2010 03:01 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 03:03, 18 Nov 2010.
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@Markkur
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I remember that someone said: That all we know, "just happened by chance " is about as likely as a tornado blowing through a junkyard and building a 747.
It was the astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle, who was commenting on what he saw as the ridiculousness of the theory of natural selection. Of course, this theory often appears to be ridiculous to people who don't understand it - or don't want to. Hoyle also, by the way, coined the term "the Big Bang", ironically as it turns out seeing as he did so out of derision.
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markkur
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posted November 18, 2010 03:49 PM |
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It was the astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle, who was commenting on what he saw as the ridiculousness of the theory of natural selection.
Thanks for the Ref. I couldn't recall (occuring a lot these days)or I would have given it. I like it because I believe it true for me concerning my views as well.
<IMO> "Design" is too important to Man to discard it to "Only to chance". I think the arguments about HoMM Races and many other aspects...testify to that We want control, we want our own design. Some of us, have problems with luck as a skill
Make a great day and thanks for not ripping out this old wizard's staff and chopping it into little pieces. That would be most uncomfortable
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Corribus
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posted November 18, 2010 04:08 PM |
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Forgive me, Markkur, but could you clarify your last post? I didn't quite get what point you were trying to make.
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markkur
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posted November 18, 2010 04:17 PM |
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Forgive me, Markkur, but could you clarify your last post? I didn't quite get what point you were trying to make.
I'm sorry...not at my best today.
I believe we are creators and I think that fact "testifies' in going against, our world being "random-chance".
Sorry again, the "Wizard-Staff" is my Faith and I made a failed attempt at humor.
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Elodin
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posted November 18, 2010 06:25 PM |
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Perhaps that's because spirits don't exist.
As for the old argument about whether the universe has a beginning - I don't see why it has to. If the universe always existed, it needn't have a beginning. And even if it did have a beginning, there are ways to explain that without God. God is not a rational answer - the most you can say is "the universe came into being because of unknown reason X. The only thing we know about X is that it caused the Universe to come into being."
It is not logical to say that because you don't know how to detect it that it does not exist.
We have observed that that the universe did in fact have a beginning. The Hubble telescope and COBE satellite observations have pretty much settled that question.
Further, due to entropy we know the universe is not eternal.
No, the universe could not have created itself out of absolute nothing without a cause. Absolute nothing could produce nothing.
God is the only rational answer. The cause had to be self-existent, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, personal [he had to decide to cause the steady state of nothingness to change], powerful, knowledgeable, and wise.
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1910
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posted November 18, 2010 06:27 PM |
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God is not a rational answer for anything.
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