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| Thread: Elves are ****s |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 24, 2010 04:26 PM |
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Elves are ****s
I'm sure people know this but, if you look back in mythology, Elves are not nice people. They lie, cheat, kill to get what they want, they seduce men and women into woods to make them slaves and kidnap children and leave behind changelings. As a group, Elves, collectively, are bast@rds. And yet, the tolkienisation of elves is so prevelent that there are rarely any elves of the older interpretations slip into fantasy. Yeah, there are some, like Terry Pratchets elves in "the Lords and Ladies" and the elves in Lorwyn in magic the gathering interpretation, but what I think would be interesting is that the next elven faction in Homm goes back to these older, darker interpretations of the fair folk.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 24, 2010 04:38 PM |
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Fat chance, the Ashan elves are just another bunch of clones of the Tolkien (and D&D/Warhammer) elves. For some reason people worship this fake image and may even anathematize the game if the their beloved race is anything like its mythological archetype.
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Hakkology
Hired Hero
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posted December 24, 2010 05:44 PM |
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Treehuggers, im sure they have their devils inside.
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted December 24, 2010 05:45 PM |
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Good - Elves
Bad - Dark Elves
sorry guys..
everything has been divided in the world of Ashan already..
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 24, 2010 08:35 PM |
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Quote:
I'm sure people know this but, if you look back in mythology, Elves are not nice people. They lie, cheat, kill to get what they want, they seduce men and women into woods to make them slaves and kidnap children and leave behind changelings. As a group, Elves, collectively, are bast@rds. And yet, the tolkienisation of elves is so prevelent that there are rarely any elves of the older interpretations slip into fantasy. Yeah, there are some, like Terry Pratchets elves in "the Lords and Ladies" and the elves in Lorwyn in magic the gathering interpretation, but what I think would be interesting is that the next elven faction in Homm goes back to these older, darker interpretations of the fair folk.
That's the Irish Elves, with maybe a smattering of Norse Dark/Black-Elves. My lineup for such a faction would be along the lines of:
Vale
Core
Pixie > Imp
Dire Wolf > Vale Wolf
Elf > Elf Archer
Elite
Dryad > Black Dryad
Temptress > Seductress
Nightmare > Unicorn
Champion
Dendroid > Thorny Dendroid
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 24, 2010 10:00 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 22:00, 24 Dec 2010.
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Why would a dryad upgrade be called black dryad?
Because they're black of skin, plus their Entangling Roots (yes, these lasses have that ability now, the Dendroids will have to be content with tearing at walls) also poison the enemy.
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And why succubis and imps with the elves?
For one thing, the Temtress and Seductress aren't Succubi, although they do the same thing, steal the hearts of men (and women, it seems to go either way in the old stories). Also, the other ones don't necessarily have to be imps, I just wanted an evil fairy that was skilled in magic, and couldn't come up with a better name.
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Why nightmare -> Unicorn, its insane to begin with, but if its real then change the order, nightmares are more powerful than unicorns.
Only in D&D, but my Nightmare isn't really based on the D&D one. Also, it's fitting, in that in Germanic/Norse myth, nightmares were believed to be caused by Dark Elves sitting on sleepers' and whispering in their ears.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 25, 2010 02:56 AM |
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Quote:
Good - Elves
Bad - Dark Elves
sorry guys..
everything has been divided in the world of Ashan already..
I wish both of them were Bad, but mostly the forest-based ones though. 
After all it's so cliché that you are bad and evil when you live underground, but it's much cooler when the forest-dwellers are The really evil ones. :/
I really agree with Bixie, Elves should be evil bad-asses. 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 25, 2010 03:58 AM |
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Well at the risk of drawing out all Tolkien haters. The Professor actually did a good thing. The Elves before him were ‘mostly’ tiny little imp-like creatures whispering from behind grass.
As far as the good vs. bad;
What do we have now?
Bad:
Orcs
Inferno
Necros
Dark Elves
Good:
Haven (mostly)
Light Elves
Neutral:
Academy?
The idea of having only Humans being good doesn’t sound good. Unless you just want a game “the baddest of the bad”
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 25, 2010 09:18 AM |
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you say that, but the Sidhe were elves and they were tall and beautiful, like in Lotr and the bohhit and the simarlirion (spelling fail) and they were complete bast@rds. there is a tale of a man who fell in love with one of the sidhe, and how did the sidhe respond? she gouged his eyes out and wore them as a necklace.
besides, I'd also say the orcs are fairly neutral in ashan. they just hate everything, with no real allies one way or the other.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 25, 2010 10:42 AM |
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Quote:
Bad:
Orcs
Inferno
Necros
Dark Elves
Good:
Haven (mostly)
Light Elves
Neutral:
Academy?
Don't think Academy is neutral. Good I would say. And what happened to Dwarves, which are also good?
I think the idea of bad-ass light elves is wonderful. Dark elves can be the ones who are fed up with all the deceit and lies of light elves. So essentially dark elves are nicer than light elves.
Why do we have to seperate so harshly and say good or bad, anyway? Haven is evil for me. I hate their kind of people in real life: blinded-by-faith servants.
The idea of asking "is it good or bad?" is the creation of popular culture. Like in cliché Hollywood film there are bad guys/women and good ones. That is far from reality and only makes the film simple and boring.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 25, 2010 04:28 PM |
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Quote:
you say that, but the Sidhe were elves and they were tall and beautiful, like in Lotr...
Bixie i did say "mostly" I think you are describing one of the early Celtic tales from Ireland. My favorite is the one where a beautiful Sidh, "Becuma of the Fair Skin" marries Conn the King and his son heads out on an adventure. I think Tolkien would be the first to say he was infuenced by those sources. His entire myth was intended to 'resurrect' what he loved in the old tales. So it is a biased effort but as far as Elves around his time, the Victorian age had turned them in to cute little things and there was even a person that did a Hoax with pictures, that made the headlines.
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besides, I'd also say the orcs are fairly neutral in ashan. they just hate everything, with no real allies one way or the other.
I don't have strong feelings about any of this but I thought these guys had "demon blood" in the story? That's why the Holy Light spell affects them. Anyway I would rather have them your way it seems more Orcish to me too.
@Nocturnal
It would be Ok with me if any faction could be any of the three flavors...including neutral. If some Elves have to be bad why not have some Necros and Infernos-lights One thing about this angle; it would make knowing allies a little trickier.
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"Do your own research"
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 25, 2010 05:19 PM |
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Edited by TDL at 17:19, 25 Dec 2010.
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To Inferno with elves!
Honestly, I have nothing against them, but they are vastly overused and I would rather have them completely removed from the game than see another poor or reused implementation of them. While talking about HMM, I do not think it is possible to overhaul the concept of the elves, but while talking in general, I would rather see them the way they are seen in DAO. Tolkienized elves are all two-goody-shoes, safe for a few traits that they carry over from the wood-elves of Mirkwood. Morrowind had decent elves called Dunmer who I liked a lot so those too could be an example.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 25, 2010 05:22 PM |
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Quote:
As far as the good vs. bad;
What do we have now?
Bad:
Orcs
Inferno
Necros
Dark Elves
Good:
Haven (mostly)
Light Elves
Neutral:
Academy?
If we're talking about Ashan, then I think you're a bit off here mate.
I think the accepted roster is this:
Bad:
Inferno
Dungeon
Necropolis
Neutral:
Stronghold
Fortress
Good:
Haven
Academy
Sylvan
However all the good factions have their dark side and the bad factions have some redeeming qualities, so the distinction is somewhat blurry.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted December 25, 2010 07:18 PM |
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Quote:
If we're talking about Ashan, then I think you're a bit off here mate.
If only this You are correct I was by far just thinking about the Elf comments. You caught me, I don't think I had really ever thought about good and bad and all that in the game. My enemy?=Bad, Enemy has a Big Army?=Very Bad
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I think the accepted roster is this:
Bad:
Inferno
Dungeon
Necropolis
Neutral:
Stronghold
Fortress
Good:
Haven
Academy
Sylvan
However all the good factions have their dark side and the bad factions have some redeeming qualities, so the distinction is somewhat blurry.
Glad a correct list is up. Agree with the last comment. <imo> A good game will often have some intrigue just to keep us off-balance and guessing...sometimes wrong
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 25, 2010 08:48 PM |
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Personally I would have stuck Dungeon in Neutral myself, although really, labels like 'good' and 'evil' is too simplistic, what you really need is a list of how every faction feels about every other faction.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted December 25, 2010 09:58 PM |
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Quote:
Personally I would have stuck Dungeon in Neutral myself, although really, labels like 'good' and 'evil' is too simplistic, what you really need is a list of how every faction feels about every other faction.
Oh, realy? Cause I got the impression that the Dark Elves would put a dagger 'tween your ribs for a nickle and think nothing of it. They seemed to charactarised as lying, thieving, assasinating oppertunists. Sounds pretty evil to me. And for the love of the Gods, don't throw a politician joke in there.
Good and Evil are not simplistic IMO, but they are rather subjective. And making a list of what the factions think about eachother would be a lot of work, but work I would possibly like doing.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted December 25, 2010 10:33 PM |
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I just miss something really revolutinoary, well IMO. I'll try to twist the stereotypical aspects of fantasy and high fantasy as much as I can below, for now 
Orcs- Could be good hearted knights using divine magic and worship the sun
Ogres - Could be cave dwellers who are excellent at magic
Goblins - Could be spiritual fire worshippers and ride giant snakes born by some fiery god.
Elves - Brutal sorcerer knights who believe in one god and want to subdue the other races to eternal slavery
Humans - Atheistic peace keepers who believe in logic, truth and science but are very sceptical to magic.
Dwarves - Believe the universal magic is what created all things and are guardians of arcane lore and lives in great woods.
Halflings - Tree dwellers who worship the spirits of nature but also try to invent technology imbued with spirits. Technology that are pure and dont pollute at all.
Gnomes - Wizards of the sky, live in clouds and rides dragons to gather new types of inventions. Live by scavenging, usually useless stuff and let their cloud dragons help them figure out the new stuff.
Beast People - Agnosticers. Value freedom, truth and extreme impulses. A neutral people who do everything to survive, either by slaugtering or helping people to the utmost capability and makes sure to get the reward they deserve but convince otherwise non-agreeing parties with, magical, convincing speeches and arguments.
Devils - Guardins of the world itself. Punish ANYONE who try to even speak to them. For nothing shall disturbe the chaotic magics they have created to stabilize the order of the world with a fluctating but stable bond of powerful bond of magic.
Angels - Their goal are to protect each and every individual on the planet. They multiply for each people saved unless that being dies by natural means and not manipulated ones. They have high - tech gadgets and can travel through space and time.
Yup, thought of these descriptions here and now. Call me nuts but boundaries made of stereotypical and cliche matter are to be BROKEN
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted December 25, 2010 10:42 PM |
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HAHaha nice ones 
might not fit so well with the current Heroes universe, but otherwise it sounded really interesting
But yeah it would be totally awesome if they they had the courage to mix things up a bit more.
The same old stereotypes over and over again is nothing but boring
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 26, 2010 12:12 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 00:41, 26 Dec 2010.
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Oh, realy? Cause I got the impression that the Dark Elves would put a dagger 'tween your ribs for a nickle and think nothing of it. They seemed to charactarised as lying, thieving, assasinating oppertunists.
Yeah but remember that they had a treaty with the Griffen Empire, so they can't be all bad.
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Good and Evil are not simplistic IMO, but they are rather subjective.
They are simplistic, categorising Necropolis has to take into account the widely disparate views of Markal and Arantir.
Oh and Orfinn, those aren't just twisting the stereotypes, they're shredding them. Mine would be more like:
Haven - Despotic Tyrants supported by a psychotic priesthood.
Sylvan - Ultra-xenophobic forest dwellers prepared to kill anyone who they see as even slightly dangerous to their forest homes.
Academy - Elitist intellectuals who think that everyone not as smart as them needs their guidance, and should be thankful for it.
Necropolis - Communistic wizards who seek to overthrow Haven and Academy and introduce some decent human rights. They use undead troops because they feel that the living should not have to suffer the horrors of war.
Dungeon - Peace-seeking animists prepared to open their doors to any oppressed people or beasts they come across.
Fortress - Gold-obsessed capitalists who care more for profit than for people.
Stronghold - Peaceful but physical people who only want to get on with their lives and hate anyone who tries to take advantage of them.
Inferno - Mad magicians who think that the world would be a better place if magic was conquered and put to work like animals or machines.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted December 26, 2010 08:59 AM |
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Quote:
Oh and Orfinn, those aren't just twisting the stereotypes, they're shredding them. Mine would be more like:
Haven - Despotic Tyrants supported by a psychotic priesthood.
Sylvan - Ultra-xenophobic forest dwellers prepared to kill anyone who they see as even slightly dangerous to their forest homes.
Academy - Elitist intellectuals who think that everyone not as smart as them needs their guidance, and should be thankful for it.
Necropolis - Communistic wizards who seek to overthrow Haven and Academy and introduce some decent human rights. They use undead troops because they feel that the living should not have to suffer the horrors of war.
Dungeon - Peace-seeking animists prepared to open their doors to any oppressed people or beasts they come across.
Fortress - Gold-obsessed capitalists who care more for profit than for people.
Stronghold - Peaceful but physical people who only want to get on with their lives and hate anyone who tries to take advantage of them.
Inferno - Mad magicians who think that the world would be a better place if magic was conquered and put to work like animals or machines.
Actually your description aren't too far from what Haven, Sylvan and Academy are.
As said in their description, Haven values order and law over good. And with Inferno excluded, they've been the number one bane of Ashan. They're quick to draw conclusions and the least open to other points of view. They waged bloody war against the Sylvan when they saw an opportunity to grab just a little more territory from them. They sided up with Academy in keeping Orcs and beastmen slaves, and they were the ones who gave chase when the Orcs broke free and left the Silver Cities. And the real reason they fight against the Inferno during the Eclipse, is as stated in their H6 profile: To show them who's the boss and not to save other people.
Besides in H5, Biara posing as Isabel could corrupt only so many of them, all the rest of the Griffin Empire's army (save for Duncan's Duchy and Godric's knights), willingly followed their orders and commited all of these atrocities against their own people.
Sylvan are xenophobic and quick to eliminate those who they consider threat as a matter of fact too. Though I guess, they got a better judgment than that of Haven. Sylvan took in and protected humans at the times when Markal and Biara were on their 'crusades' against Haven. However Sylvan did not even think twice and killed many of their own people in the War of Bitter Ashes, who just wanted their independence.
Academy on the other hand, must have commited some of the most terrible crimes ever in all over Ashan. Magic or not, imagine how many living beings met their demise until the wizards could get it right, and create the Beastmen and the Orcs. This is not just speculation as the background story of Lamassus, proves it. And anyway, it's not really very moral to take prisoners whatever their crimes, and infuse them with demonic or animal blood or whatever. To me these wizards are pretty much like crazed scientists of WWII's Axis side. And to top it all off, they still held them as slaves without recognizing any rights to them, until these creatures had to rebel and gain their freedom through blood and fire.
Not to mention how quick they were to condemn the rise of Necromancy. Considering it taboo? Yeah, right! Wizards are open minded enough to experiment with human lives and kill who knows how many in the process. Necromancy should be something totally exciting to them. I think that the only reason Necromancy was ever outlawed and became taboo, was because the Necromancers were rising very quickly power and becoming too popular as hinted in Ashan's timeline. For that reason alone, this 'good' faction broke apart in civil war and drove forcibly a lot of people out of their nation, and remained at war with them ever since.
Out of the so called 'good' faction, only the Fortress remains the least evil. They're greedy and isolationists and extremely conservative but not quite evil. Although keeping to themselves, when others were dying just outside of their gates, could be considered criminal. At least Wolfstan came along and shook them up, force them to take part in the events of Ashan for the sake not just of the dwarves but all of its people.
I could go on and describe how the 'evil' factions aren't as evil as they're supposed to be. Most obviously Stronghold, less obviously Inferno. But I'm tired of typing already. 
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