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| Thread: Heroes: A Force to be Reckoned With |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted February 16, 2002 12:54 AM |
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Armies and Hero Experience
"I also think that having 2 heroes will be the way to go most of the time, even though that will make them develop slower "
I agree on this Tristan, having two heroes will make them develop slower, as you would have to split the experience and have a preference between the two. Maybe a worthy strategy is to have two separate armies both with one hero at the start of the game, and when they've reached considerable levels, bring them back together, so you can raise the experience equally.
"So I'm fairly certain that players will have at least two main armies"
Yes, although that would only be really possible in the mid to endgame when you really can call these armies 'main'. If you want to have two main armies from the beginning, you would have to start splitting the experience straight away, and that would slow the advance of your kingdom down. The way I would do it is get a hero a an advanced level, maybe 20, and stil have the other hero on 5, then i'll switch the experience growth, where both heroes end up being on 25-25.
"(They just add 5% to ressurrection whereas Basic, Advanced and expert adds 10%,"
Well, at those high levels, Djive I think it would be fair to say that this is a great change. I say this because in Heroes III there were only 3 skill levels available, and they were pretty easy to muster and utilise with great efficiency. In Heroes IV, it's most likely that the higher skills will make much difference, although it doesn't look it on paper. I would actually be grateful for a 5% increase on skills at the highest level, and still, it does contain other bonuses. But if you went any higher than five, I think the system ladder would take too long to climb, and that would be a downfall for the game, not to mention the people who play it.
Magic skills will help, especially as there are no artifacts that can let you maximise your attacking fetes. Magic on the other hand, has many artifacts, most noticeably the tomes, which will be a huge asset to a strong spellcasting hero. When it comes to artifacts, it would be better to give the magic ones to magic heroes, as it can do them much good. Although with defense and attack atifacts, I don't think they prove as much as a bonus as the magic artifacts do.
Skills, now being alignment and magic orientated, you will now probably have to make your decisons according to the map, even if it doesnt suit the main hero as well as you' have liked. I think it would be worth it, as if you teach life magic to a life magic aligned hero, you will really take advantage of the Necropolis town around the corner.
So, really it is not only the hero, but the world around you.
{Edited}
A question of 1-2 per army, yes that's what I said. If you are suggest 6-10 heroes per kingdom, that means on a mean, 3-5 armies. Now, I think 3 would be OK for a small to medium sized map. 5, I think, would be a bit small for an Extra large map in Heroes IV. To my knowledge, the map sized have been changed, although I am not sure by what degree they have been.
Having more heroes will allow you to expand and eliminate more of the Fog of War, so maybe even a 'weak' scouting hero could be a sizeable asset.
Necromancy is extremely powerful as it was in Heroes III, having it at GrandMaster level Vs. Master level can make a sizeable difference to how many skeletons your army actually recieves.
And regarding an earlier post where you said that the names of classes such as 'Green Knight' will have no bonuses whatsoever, new information has been released to suggest otherwise. Each class will now possess their own unique bonus/es, making them more than just a name.
Does anyone else have any other views on this topic?
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 16, 2002 01:47 AM |
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I don't believe in players having 1 or 2 heroes. I believe players will want to have 6-10 Heroes and probably as quickly as possible.
1 or 2 heroes will simply not give you a wide enough selection of skills, so in the start of the game you'll recruit what you can in the form of heroes.
A very basic strategy in heroes 3 and likely also heroes 4 is to expand as far as you can early. Flag important places (like Mines and other map locations) to get their bonuses early on and to build up future wealth and prosperity. This will likely be the same in heroes 4. Stay in your castle with your troops and you will fall behind in devleopement. Send out your armies without heroes in the beginning and your heroes will be handicapped in the end-game when facing the armies of the enemies.
It's not the question of 1-2 Heroes per Kingdom, it's more a question of 1 or 2 Heroes per army!
When it come to Resurrection we don't know how it will apply, and how the rounding will be made. If you have 10% Necromancy and kill 1 Peasant I believe you still end up with 1 Skeleton.
Ressurrection may simple work on lost HP in battle, and restore X% of the lost HP. How many units you end up restoring to life will then depend on how much Health your top unit has lost. This should be an overall fair way of handling Resurrection.
Btw. Resurrection looks to be very strong. Compare it with Diplomacy which at Grand master is limited as 600 XP + 10% per level. Level 30 Hero would mean 2400 XP, which roughly equates to 2 Black Dragons (and then you probably have to pay to get the monsters to join).
If you take Charm it will be about half the XP of Diplomacy so a level 30 hero with Grand Master Charm, can Charm 1 Black Dragon.
If you look at Grand Master summoning it will give Elementals with 100 XP + 10% per level. A typical Elemental has 75 XP. So level 5 Hero gets 2 Elementals, and then you need around level 13 for 3 Elementals and level 20 for 4 Elementals. Elementals are about level 2.5 creatures so this is about 1 week's production.
Grand master necromancy is limited as 200XP + 10% per level.
A Vampire is roughly 200 XP. So a level 10 Hero can get 2 Vampires, and a level 20 Hero can get 3 Vampires per combat, and this is the maximum they can get. Counted in Skeletons you can get more: 1 Skeleton is 6XP, so you can get 33 Skeletons/Vampire. Still, even a level 20 Hero can't get more than 100 Skeleton's per combat.
It seems to me that we're missing a limit to XP for the resurrection skill which limits how much the skill will resurrect.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 22, 2002 04:17 AM |
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Heroes or not heroes ???
Hi, all 
An interesting and hot discussion here. Here comes
my views:-
Agreed with both Djive and Oldtimer in some aspects.
To start with as many heroes as you can is theoretically
right coz you can have more flexibility as you still not
have a good knowledge of the map. Then you can and should focus on 1 or 2 main heroes and develop their primary skills to GM. Specialist heroes are much more useful and I think it's the intention of game designers for that coz they want more RPG feel in h4 and that's cool. (at least for me )
However, we got to think about these too:-
- map
- XP
- heroes or not heroes
1). Map
It's no point to develop a specialist hero in smaller maps coz of time and xp limit. I would rather pick up lord (for nobility) and thief (for quick exploration) over any other might and magic skills. Heroes can take up an assistive role here. Let the creatures do the job. It's not h3 any more. 
Same goes for multi-player games, I think it will be too risky to develop a might or magic specialist coz your smart human opponent may find a way to counter it. Heroes may play versatile roles here: disruption, stealing mines, assasin enemy heroes.......many possibilities here.
For L/XL or campaign, that's where hero development come into play and AI is famous for its stupidity to stop your hero development. 
2). XP
As Oldtimer has said, XP limit may force you to focus on 1 or 2 primary instead of developing an all-round hero. That's cool. In h3, everybody looks for log, dip(if allowed), off/arm, earth,res,....., even before the final battle, you can "predict" what your enemy main will look like. Very boring imho. 
So, maybe we can try this trick: develop some scouting heroes to maybe just advance or expert stealth, or use bandit if Asylum. Flag the mines, take the goodies,...etc but leave monsters intact. Let them grow and "harvest" them with an "all heroes" army (if allowed)if you needed or after you take some skills in university/hut/scholar etc. By this way, xp can be fully utilized without hindering your town development.
3). Heroes or not heroes
Gone were the days heroes dominate the battlefield, but they still dominate the game (well, it sounds odd ). Heroes should take a more diversed role:
assistive e.g. priest or those tactic heroes;
disruptive e.g. thieves, assasin;
economical e.g. lord
.........and more (I can't think more at this moment. )
Well, that may deserve another thread.
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Choose what you love
and love what you choose.
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 01, 2002 08:54 PM |
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Heroes will gain different bonuses each level based on their class,while casters gain more mana but less hp's and dmg,barbarian will gain more hp's and dmg per level.
Magic resistance doesnt affect units.Hero only
Resurrection is 50% at GM.
I think xp will be a bit easier to get than H3 cuz creatures give more xp than the number of hp's they have.Still, will be very tough to get over 40 IMO,unless there is map features we dont know about.
I plan to try 2 heros in main party,and various heros/creatures defending and scouting.
Skills like nobility-mining and estate dont NEED to be GM to be effective,but skills like magic ones,archery,melee,.... have HUGE bonuses when you reach GM.
Pathfinding will be very useful,and a hero with expert(or higher) will have an edge over any hero w/o the skill,he might be able to run by you and you cant do anything.No more dim.door or fly.
Level 5 spells are very strong,no artifacts will help you to cast them if you dont have the skills needed.In H3,tomes would let you use any given spells even if you didnt have the skill,H4 is different.Tomes contain spells,but you need the skill requirements to cast them.If you arent GM in order magic,you cant cast lvl5 order spells.
Artifacts can give you bonuses like +25% defense to all troops within hero's radius.This is much more usefull then most magic based artifact.+200% health armor will help a caster,but would also help a barbarian and give him 3,000hp's or so by lvl30,if not more.
A well suited might hero(combat/tactic) will be tough to stop,dealing insane dmg,having insane hp's and a good defense.Add magic immune and one or two good artifacts.....
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted March 01, 2002 10:26 PM |
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Quote:
A well suited might hero(combat/tactic) will be tough to stop,dealing insane dmg,having insane hp's and a good defense.Add magic immune and one or two good artifacts..... Quote:
i'm into that groove already
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted March 02, 2002 08:47 PM |
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"Heroes will gain different bonuses each level based on their class,while casters gain more mana but less hp's and dmg,barbarian will gain more hp's and dmg per level."
I don't think you get any extra points because you are a Barabarian. The points depend entirely on the skills you have and what level you have them at, and the Hero's level.
The Mana points and spell regeneration is more or less directly dependent on number of increases in certain skills.
"I think xp will be a bit easier to get than H3 cuz creatures give more xp than the number of hp's they have."
I'd say the opposite. Creature stacks will be reduced a lot because Heroes can't handle big stacks in the beginning of the game. Also as far as i could see most level 1 creatures give less Xp than their Health. Level 2 has Health about the same as Xp.
I also have a hunch that if the hero(es) are taken out you get 0 Xp for your efforts. This can happen easily if wandering monsters attack you during your turn.
Heroes can't handle big stacks of level 4 monsters or swarms of level 2 or level 3, no matter how much you increase their Hp. It's 1 hit and hero is dead. It was this type of combat that gave you the high Xp boosts in H3. With them gone I believe getting a hero beyond level 20 will be rare. (At least if they're going to get all the Xp from combats.) The progressive scale for Xp is really dissuading players from going high in level for a few heroes. Only if you have a campaign where you know you can carry over 4 best heroes will you want to place almost all of your Xp on 4 heroes.
Since Heroes will barely be able to master skill, Map makers will have to use scripts to give Heroes boosts in levels, skills or Xp. This is probably one of the reasons they aren't including a Rabdom Map generator, since it's difficult to get such a thing both fair and random.
"Skills like nobility-mining and estate dont NEED to be GM to be effective,but skills like magic ones,archery,melee,.... have HUGE bonuses when you reach GM."
The bonuses for magic are not greater at the higher levels. The primary skill allows you to cast an increased number of spells. Two of the secondaries have exactly the same increase as the lower leveles, and the third secondary is also not boasting a big increase.
There are, however, some skills that are really worthwhile at GM level. The magic ones are not one of them.
"Level 5 spells are very strong,no artifacts will help you to cast them if you dont have the skills needed."
They will be more costly to get. You have to spend 5 increases in order to get from Master to Grand Master. Sure, the increases from the secondaries will give you more spellpoints and increase effectiveness, but those increases could perhaps have been more effective if spent on other skills.
"barbarian and give him 3,000hp's or so by lvl30,if not more."
What do you base this number on?
"A well suited might hero(combat/tactic) will be tough to stop,dealing insane dmg,having insane hp's and a good defense.Add magic immune and one or two good artifacts....."
What are you basing this on? The bonuses I've seen so far is not that impressive.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2002 12:34 AM |
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Im sorry,i was WRONG.These infos were based on notes ive written down,was saying each classes have different "evolution" thru levels.
This was before they changed melee,defense,toughness,.... skills.
And now,there is contradictions.
For exemple,a lvl10 Lord would have gotten 400hp's and deal 40-60dmg.
The dmg is wrong,,cuz melee skill at master gives you 40dmg and GM gives you double strike and first strike.
When i got info on changes,i though these sills increased your dmg "by" instead of "at".Again,i was wrong.
About hp's,they more than likely changed it too(not sure),was saying knights gain 24hps per level while barbarians gain 32hp's.Was obvious mage/necro/druid/.... would gain less hp's.
If they changed hp's too,i hope they didnt reduced them,cuz even at 3,000hp's,with crappy offense40/defense40,a hero wont last long.
3,000hp was based on 32X30=960 +200%(artifact) which was pretty close to 3,000 cuz heros had at least 100hp at lvl1.
On skills,some magic skills give you lvl5 spells,and some are great,but you're right,most magic skills dont give more bonus at GM than any other promotions.
Darn,im sorry again and truly "puzzled" when thinking how can a hero be usefull other than magic or bonuses for 2-3 rounds(till units reach him).
Really wish im missing something,cuz hero's on the battlefield now seems a lame idea.And it was the feature i was looking the most.
Again,sorry
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2002 12:54 AM |
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Hum,melee and dmg is different,right? Maybe i wasnt so wrong but anyway,all this is only speculation.
Infos i have say:
Each level,a barbarian gains 32hp and 5-7dmg.
Each level,a knight gains 24hp and 4-5dmg.
A lvl30 barbarian would be around 1,000hp's,dealing 150-210dmg.
Oh well,we'll see soon
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 03, 2002 11:03 AM |
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Hero Skills in Battle
"I don't think you get any extra points because you are a Barabarian. The points depend entirely on the skills you have and what level you have them at, and the Hero's level."
Actually, Djive, there has been information stated to suggest otherwise. Although it may not be these 'particular' bonuses thorman as described. A Barbarian will actually gain more HP than a Sorcerer per level, it is logical, for the reason that Barbarian focus on martial elements, while Sorcerers focus on mysitcal. I would find it unfair if a Sorcerer gained the same amount of HP, and used spells better than the Barbarian. But who said life was fair?
"I think xp will be a bit easier to get than H3 cuz creatures give more xp than the number of hp's they have."
I strongly agree with Djive here. Experience in Heroes IV will be much harder to develop, as shown in the latest Russian site. For example, for a Hydra, it is 617 experience, which I would like to point out, is a fair few more than that of its hit points, as it was previously based on. And as Djive pointed out, the experience rate will slowly increase towards the higher levels, as level 1 experience is actually lower than the Hit Points.
"he progressive scale for Xp is really dissuading players from going high in level for a few heroes."
Yes, as the Experience points rise and rise per level, making a larger difference for the level gain. This was used in some extent in Heroes III, but in Heroes IV, it has been taken further, as now the hero must gain much more experience.
"Level 5 spells are very strong,no artifacts will help you to cast them if you dont have the skills needed."
Yes, they will be costly to actually reach that stage, but once there, I do believe that all level 5 spells cost 12 spell points. I am not entirely sure what the reason for this is, but if spell points are as easy to obtain as in Heroes III, I would have thought the biggest hurdle was getting there. But, if a level 10 hero is likely to have 20-30 spell points, I would start casting my spells with greater thought, as it would be foolish to cast many level one spells for the same overall effect as a level 4 for instance.
"barbarian and give him 3,000hp's or so by lvl30,if not more."
I'm not inclined to think that 3,000 HP is possible with Heroes IV's experience system. Also, it is a known fact that Heroes will be very vulnerable at low levels, and probably only start with 10-25 HP anyway. If one were to focus so much on gaining Hit Points, and at level 30, all other areas would drop severly, sending your hopes into utter chaos.
" A well suited might hero(combat/tactic) will be tough to stop,dealing insane dmg,having insane hp's and a good defense.Add magic immune and one or two good artifacts....."
It actually depends what level you're on. I wouldn't expect that from a level 3 hero. It would probably would be a relatively easy battle for a level 3 creature at that stage.
But what you describe, maybe the good defense part is OK, but the game isn't about one round and a few artifacts.
I wouldn't think 3DO would have created distinguished classes just to be offset by a few good artifacts. And at those high levels, artifacts strengths will begin to have less effect. For example, a level 1 hero has 15 HP. An artifact gives a bonus of 5. This is considered a 'large' bonus for the circumstances. But then you tranfer the same artifact back to a hero with 500 HP. Not much of a difference.
" A lvl30 barbarian would be around 1,000hp's,dealing 150-210dmg."
This seems more realistic. But some spells at GM levels would probably equal that of a Barbarians defenses. I believe that might and magic are evenly matched.
One upside, thorman, Stronghold now get to use their abilities in a direct manner, where as spells used to make the moves with heroes. There's a change lookign forward to if you're a Stronghold fan.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 04, 2002 05:33 AM |
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Lots of artifacts give percent bonus,not direct bonus(XXXhp) but +50%,+100%,+200%.
Same thing with defense (shared with units) from a couple of shields for exemple.
I dunno how artifacts will stack with each other,or if they stack with spells.
Dragon strenght gives you +100% health and best artifact ive seen(for health) is +200%.This could give a hero alot of hp's at lvl20+.
Heros NEED alot of hp's to stand in front of stacks of unit.Or the melee skill is worthless,if a hero cant take hits,how is he going to be able to get in melee range w/o being destroyed in 1 or 2 rounds?
You can always hide a caster behind creatures,but then he cant use spells with a "line of sight" requirement.
I hope fight strategies wont be "how to hide your heros".
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted March 05, 2002 07:51 AM |
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I think a good deal of the play balancing will have to be centered around how to get your heroes and your armies to develop equally enough to keep the heroes alive long enough to do their thing. If your hero is going to be attacked by black dragons before you have a chance to do anything with him/her then that hero should be able to survive the attack. Part of the point we may be missing is how hard it will be to get high level units in numbers great enough to threaten a decent hero.
Yes, a 1st level hero should be killed by a dragon, but how high level will your hero be by the time the buildings needed have been built and the gold and resources available to hire that black dragon? It seems that we will be working with smaller armies than in H3.
I too would hate to see the heroes allowed to partake in the fighting only to have to spend all your time protecting them from the creatures. On the other hand, I would like the element of danger to be there. It is a fine line to walk IMHO, and we will have to wait to see how well it is done after the game is available. (In my case, perhaps through the words of others as I may need to upgrade my computer just to PLAY it depending on requirements)
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Linkki
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 05, 2002 05:21 PM |
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I've been away for a while, I had an accident because of which I was in a hospital bed for a couple of days. Anyways, to the point.
About the dangers with heroes dying:
You quite certainly don't need to worry too much about dying heroes as long as you win the battle, since they can be resurrected in any of your towns. This meaning that you don't need to protect them unless you want to advance further after the battle, as a dead hero will require you to turn your way back home. The heroes don't do that much more than fight battles, so your army would just have to fight with limited power until the get the hero(es) resurrected.
On the other hand, the element of danger does lie there. If your hero fell in combat, the now hindered target would become the target of your enemy's troops.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted March 05, 2002 06:35 PM |
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Quote:
About the dangers with heroes dying:
You quite certainly don't need to worry too much about dying heroes as long as you win the battle, since they can be resurrected in any of your towns.
If I end up with 0 XP from the battel if hero dies then it's a major nuisance. Often you fight to get Xp and if you won't gt any if the hero is knocked out, then the whole combat just means you lose troops. For one thing, you're unlikely to get post-combat bonuses in the form of Necromancy and Resurrection in the fight that the hero was knocked out.
It's also unknown what benefits a knocked out hero will give. It will probbaly prevent your army from fleeing from an enemy, but beyond that I'm not sure. Will you get Summoning bonuses? Nobility related bonuses? And the list goes on.
Sure the hero can be resurrected, but the absence of the hero may have cost you a lot before you can get to a town.
Indications are that Map movement will be slower, and if youäre far away then it can take a week or two before you can get back your hero.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 05, 2002 08:38 PM |
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I hope they found a balance between a "superhero" and a hero dying over and over.
Party strenght will more than likely never match H3's parties.There is less units and "perfect fights" seem almost impossible with H4(ranged retaliation for exemple).
But i expect to see packs and hordes and lvl3-4 units some day.If you keep losing your heros,will get old fast.
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2002 05:56 AM |
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Ya, no loss battle seem very unlikely in h4 if
not impossible. It's also clear that heroes will
be the priority target in any battle especially
in battles among human players.
"Ya, I might lose the battle, but I'll do everything possible to kill your heroes first". Then it will
be difficult for hero to gain xp and advance.
How about heroes can still gain xp if battle won but
heroes died ??? It's sound strange but it's very common
in RPG games (at least in those I've played)
____________
Choose what you love
and love what you choose.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 07, 2002 07:43 AM |
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Heroes overcoming obstacles in battle
"Lots of artifacts give percent bonus,not direct bonus(XXXhp) but +50%,+100%,+200%"
Yes, but no artifact has a directly negative effect. Say, an artifact couldn't make titans weaker against that hero. Although, what they could do, though, is that hero recieves +1 attack skill in conjunction with Titans being weaker against it. I hope I defined my point clearly.
"Heros NEED alot of hp's to stand in front of stacks of unit"
Alas, it is true. A level 9 hero, seemingly 'semi-powerful' in Heroes III, now has no chance of defeating a even a pack of minotaurs. This is the price heroes pay for getting involved directly in battle. Although, at higher levels, you actually get some use out of your hero physically, where you can afford to have your hero attack more powerful units with proficiency, not only with strengthened physical attacks, but also with powerful, high level spells at Expert and Master levels; poosibly even GrandMaster if your hero is that advanced.
"hard it will be to get high level units in numbers great enough to threaten a decent hero."
Yes, that statement is true if you choose the seemingly 'better', more expensive option of the 4th level creature. But if instead, you like to get more 'bang for buck' as they say, you would choose the Hydra, which has the X2 advantage. But just how more effective is this advantage? I've conducted a mini-experiemnt to find out.
Black Dragon Hydra
DAMAGE: 55-110 56-120
HIT POINTS: 400 500
ATTACK: 30 60
DEFENSE: 40 52
RANGED DEFENSE: 40 52
EXPERIENCE: 1,233 1,234
So, just on raw skills, the Hydra clearly has the advantage(Good for me)
But it is also possible to challenge decent heroes with level 2 or 3 creatures, if their numbers exceed 100 or so.
"It is a fine line to walk IMHO, and we will have to wait to see how well it is done after the game is available."
Yes, I agree with that statement. Heroes are very touchy at low levels, and in order of protection, my personal style will probably have me proteting my heroes at lower levels, as they can develop to become shockingly powerful at higher levels like 30-40.
I think playing it safe would be a good way to head, unless you just don't play your games that way. If you are a variable player, I think most would opt for this technique. It would be a great shame if one lost their best hero so early in the game, although this would only occur if you are competing against an army at the same strength as yours, otherwise you needn't worry. (You'll see in my next quote)
"You quite certainly don't need to worry too much about dying heroes as long as you win the battle, since they can be resurrected in any of your towns."
Yes, good point Linkki. This would save most of the precautions one would want to take at lower levels. Unless, of course the whole is totally underpowered (which it has a good probability of being that early in the game) then you may start to defend your hero.
"It's also clear that heroes will
be the priority target in any battle especially
in battles among human players."
Yes, heroes will be a great priority, even at lower levels, because your opponents would be very frightened of what could become of a level 2 Sorcerer. It is the sheer importance of Heroes in Heroes IV that makes them such a big target, and a high price to pay if you lose one permanently, or even temporarily in some cases.
Thankyou very much for all of your riviting insights, I hope this continues.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 07, 2002 09:11 AM |
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Most screenshots we've seen,heros have 100+((lvl-1)*10)
hit points.Some had artifacts(more hit points) but most of the screenshots showed this.
Its good for a lvl2 (110) but at lvl40(490) its not good anymore.doesnt take a whole army to deal 500dmg,a signle stack can deal this easily.
We'll see...
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted March 07, 2002 03:18 PM |
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it might be dificult to deal 500dm to a hero!
If Combat and Defense skills work together on a hero, a heros defense rating with both at grandmaster level would
reach 75-90 in defense rating.(some sites let GMcombat gives 50 and some 60 in defense)
Now this would in most cases means a huge defense reduction.
So much that unless an enemy hero is involved, a stack would hit the cap on how much defense can be reduced! (I don't expect damage to be reduced to 0 in any case in Homm4)
How bick was the cap in Homm3, I remember it as there was one right!
A question would be if an enemy heros bonus to attack kicks in when monsters attacks heroes? It proberly will.
If it doesn't then in all cases we would actual need quite a big stack of level 4 creatures too deal 500 damage, (asuming that damage can be reduced alot)!
And when looking at the fighting heros attack skill , it should be taken in account that the reducing of enemy defence would increase the damage potential a lot.
A strong melee hero (with first strike, double strike, attack skill 80 ! and reducing defense with 75%) and some average to good artifacts (damage increasing!) might take out quite big stack of level 4 creature in one attack!
I imagine then that the bonus a hero provide to his army can be very important in taking out strong enemy melee heroes (barbarians!!), at more equal terms. And so I picture a battle where as its about first getting the others parts hero! And such a race is not that unfair, actual it might be quite fair!
With this in mind , I imagine some rare battles where as you rather want 2 nonmagic heroes than 1 of each! (well maybe-maybe not)
with regards
Jondifool
first post here!
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted March 07, 2002 05:33 PM |
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Quote:
If Combat and Defense skills work together on a hero, a heros defense rating with both at grandmaster level would
reach 75-90 in defense rating.(some sites let GMcombat gives 50 and some 60 in defense)
Now this would in most cases means a huge defense reduction.
So much that unless an enemy hero is involved, a stack would hit the cap on how much defense can be reduced! (I don't expect damage to be reduced to 0 in any case in Homm4)
How bick was the cap in Homm3, I remember it as there was one right!
From what Gus said at Angelspit's forum a little over a month ago, attack and defence doesn't work as in Heroes 3 at all. Basically, the values are multiplied to or divided from the damage. See the below text which I've pasted in:
"Yeah, I ended up reinstating the concept because I needed it to balance spell damage and hero attacks against the bonuses you get from tactics.
Essentially, it's there so that spells and hero melee / ranged attacks become more powerful as 4th level creatures become more common. Which is also when Generals start to really give you major bonuses, when you've got large armies of powerful creatures.
The rules for attack and defense are different, however, and I think clearer. Attack multiplies the damage you do. Defense divides damage you take. Ergo, a creature with 20 attack striking a creature with 10 defense does 20 / 10 = x2 damage.
Spell damage bypasses defense, and the Melee and Archery skills ignore progressively larger defenses - against creatures, but not heroes.
If it weren't for those effects, attack and defense would be just equivalent to larger numbers for damage and hit points."
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted March 07, 2002 06:03 PM |
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thanks for clearing this
Now this makes the picture a lot clearer.
(I have been surfing for a while without stumbling on anything about attack defense).
So it would still be difficult to make a lot of damage to a strong combat Hero.
Having a faktor 90 in defense he would take 1/3 damage from an average level 4 creature.
And archery and melee at GM level would have reduced creature defense to 10. Unless their defense is bolstered by an enemy hero. So beatyfull simple. just divide the attack strenght with 10 and we have the factor the damage is increased.
so I quess that the statement about the race for beating the heros first might still hold !
Jondifool
"the mighty Gorgon is Slow, but the earth have patience"
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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