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| Thread: Heroes: A Force to be Reckoned With |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 08, 2002 12:15 AM |
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Lets take angels,30atk.Versus a hero with 90defense and 500hp.
Means it will take around 30(not too easy to get) angels to kill him in one shot? thats sweet hehe.(based on the idea angels do 50dmg on average,they will surely do a bit more but "50" was easy for my exemple)
Sounds better,but a mage still get killed fast....
A hero with GM archery will be very strong if he can manage to get it by lvl10 or so(archer can get it at 7).First strike and double shot.... ok,i play preserve.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 10, 2002 09:25 AM |
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Hero effectiveness in and around Battle
There has been much discussion on this topic, I'd just like to voice my opinion on it once more. 
"Its good for a lvl2 (110) but at lvl40(490) its not good anymore"
Hmmm... I I half see your point. As a relatively low level for Heroes IV (12), the amount of HP seems quite a coniderable amount. Then, once you compare it to the same hero at level 40, the amount of HP seems slightly low for the level.
Although, in reality, the progression is the same. There are no odd levels when a hero suddenly gains 40 HP instead of 25 or so. Please, if this information is wrong, inform me. But if it is correct, there is nothing to talk about, really, it is just the progression of HP, there are also many other attributes of a hero that get heightened every level.
Concerning the case of artifacts in conjunction with heroes, I would just like to repeat what I said in my previous post.
Different artifacts are more useful at differennt times. For example, an artifact that adds 5 hit points to your total when your hero is at level 2 seems like a great bonus. Once the hero progresses, and reaches level 35, it doesn't seem like such a big advantage after all. The reason for this is because the HP it adds has a lower precentile. 20+5=20% 250+5=2%.
This can also work in reverse. It is not much use to a lower-level hero if he/she acquires an artifact which boosts the effectiveness of level 5 spells by 10%. Then again, if the hero has level 5 spells it has a great impact on the situation.
"the reducing of enemy defence would increase the damage potential a lot."
Yes, although, there are also other factors that must be taken into account when attacking an enemy. The many bonus/es that creature or hero possesses has a great part to play in the damage factor. There is also a difference between defence and ranged defence, so overall, defence will be less vital in the game, as it doesnt have any relevance to ranged attackers. What is for sure is that in Heroes IV, battles are much more complicated, and an army will most likely be harder to defeat than in H3.
"might take out quite big stack of level 4 creature in one attack!"
This is most likely not to happen, even at extremely high levels, heroes won't be able to take out a considerable amount of level 4 creatures, especially if you were thinking of Black Dragons. Artifacts and other beneficiaries do help to some extent, but it is a known fact that a hero cannot complete all the work by himself, it is only 1 person vs. 40 or so Behemoths, which in their own right are goos melee heroes.
But there also is an aspect of balance needed to conquer lands successfully and with efficiency. Even when one possesses a super-effective attackign hero, the spell potential is offset, as the hero is so focused on attaining martial knowledge. Spells are cheap once you get there, and that is the challenged part. Although it is OK to be focused on a certain aspect, don't let it take over, and therefore eliminating the other half of the spectrum.
"so I quess that the statement about the race for beating the heros first might still hold !"
That is my most compatible assumtion, yes. If I were playing Heroes IV with the knowledge I've attained over the past 6 1/2 months here at Heroes Community, I would certainly target the heroes first in the lower levels, as then the developing process must commence once more.
I think I'll find it a bit difficult to defeat a hero at high levels, apart from if i'm risking everything, although it would be a considerable bonus to defeat him at that stage.
Thanks for the great discussion.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted March 10, 2002 10:55 AM |
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to Hydra who wrote
"This is most likely not to happen, even at extremely high levels, heroes won't be able to take out a considerable amount of level 4 creatures, especially if you were thinking of Black Dragons."
Agreed that it sounds unlikely. But with an attack skill at 80 (might and offense at GM level) and an enemy defense at 10 (what a black dragon would be reduced to when not boosted by a hero), a hero would do 8x damage twice.
with a amulet of fear an hero could have no retaliation.
Now If the Hero had The Bull rune axe. His base damage would be 60 + 6 each level !. At level 25 this turns into 210 base damage . This is 8 black dragons dead or 2 month of production waisted!! It could be a considerable amount, depending on map.
If the heros defence then is reducing the dragons base damage to 1/3 and the hero drinks a potion of fire resitance, we may see a stack of 20 black dragons, hidding in a corner of the map, until this maniac hero have been dealt with!
This is what is posible, but is it then realistic. No it's not.
But what if things can get close! First the bull axe is extreme, but a combination of other artifacts might do a high amount of damage to, and less could do!!
Hydra wrote
"Concerning the case of artifacts in conjunction with heroes, I would just like to repeat what I said in my previous post. Different artifacts are more useful at differennt times"
You are right, but as the days goes , more artifacts are gathered so the chance increase that some usefull combination can be equiped.
I have no clear picture of what artifacts can do.
But I imagine that all artifacts a hero can carry , could add a lot to his overall fighting chance! And in important battles will see the effects of potions and vials also.
next if the hero would be killed in 1 shot, he would be to weak. But the other way around if he can take 5 hits, he is maybe too strong! And his health might be boosted. again artifacts, potions (and spells) makes the diference
hydra wrote
"Even when one possesses a super-effective attackign hero, the spell potential is offset, as the hero is so focused on attaining martial knowledge"
Right, another hero, magic one would solve that.
I think I remember a spell to make an hero invulnerble to 3 attacks.(but maybe that could only be cast on the hero himself , not sure). A lot of spells does wonders!
I'll quess that in maps, that gives players ownership of more towns of the same kind, the sheer numbers of creatures would give the mighty hero a hard time on his own. Such maps properly needs access to some very strong artifacts to balance it, (if it needs balance) .
But I certainly hopes to count the might hero in there.
The more I think about, it the more important is the area of influence extending from the hero! The bonus applied is very strong! (offence, defence). And to take avay this advantage would be reason to get a might hero down asap.
Think about it , the adding or removing of a boost of a 100% attack and 50% defence, would decide a lot of battles!!
That the magic heros need to be taken out asap is obvius, there are some dreadfull spells in the game, also deciding a lot of battles!
with regards
Jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 10, 2002 11:17 AM |
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"Hmmm... I I half see your point. As a relatively low level for Heroes IV (12), the amount of HP seems quite a coniderable amount. Then, once you compare it to the same hero at level 40, the amount of HP seems slightly low for the level.
Although, in reality, the progression is the same. There are no odd levels when a hero suddenly gains 40 HP instead of 25 or so. Please, if this information is wrong, inform me. But if it is correct, there is nothing to talk about, really, it is just the progression of HP, there are also many other attributes of a hero that get heightened every level."
You're arent wrong,but he gets 100 hit points when he starts.At 40,100 doesnt mean as much than it did at 5 or 10.In fact,the higher the hero is,the less hit points (per level) he has.He always gain 10.Exemple:at lvl5(140) he has 28hp per level.At 10(190) he has 19hp per level,and so on.
At lvl 2 he has 110,to double this he needs to be lvl 13(220) to double this he needs to be lvl 34.I dont know if i explain this wrong or my point is simply wrong.
Other than hit points and dmg,your hero doesnt gain anything each level,unless you pick combat skills.Dmg is 1-2 per lvl.Yes he will gain spells,some will really help to keep him alive.
I think the number of hp's at each level versus the number of creatures you will need to kill gets lower,the higher your hero is.
Also,there is healing spell(s) defined as "non-combat",this could mean your hero stay wounded,maybe even creatures.Im not sure how this will work,but could be used to implement my point.
"Yes, although, there are also other factors that must be taken into account when attacking an enemy. The many bonus/es that creature or hero possesses has a great part to play in the damage factor. There is also a difference between defence and ranged defence, so overall, defence will be less vital in the game, as it doesnt have any relevance to ranged attackers. What is for sure is that in Heroes IV, battles are much more complicated, and an army will most likely be harder to defeat than in H3."
While defense could be less revelant,ranged and melee defense will be the same most of the time.Exceptions of few bonuses here and there.
"That is my most compatible assumtion, yes. If I were playing Heroes IV with the knowledge I've attained over the past 6 1/2 months here at Heroes Community, I would certainly target the heroes first in the lower levels, as then the developing process must commence once more.
I think I'll find it a bit difficult to defeat a hero at high levels, apart from if i'm risking everything, although it would be a considerable bonus to defeat him at that stage."
There is alot of IF for me to really reply to this.The way i see fights,from what i know,they will be much less "automatic" than it used to be in H3.Thats why i think H4 will be much more fun,challenging.
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 10, 2002 11:29 AM |
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the post above was in reply to the_hydra.
Also on artifact,yes 5hp is more significant at lvl2 than it is at lvl40.But in fact,there is much more artifact giving %(percentage) bonuses than a fix number.Especially for hp(i think they all give percentage).A percentage is always the same ratio at any lvl.
For bonus to dmg,lots of artifact gives a fix bonus,and a bonus per lvl(+1 each lvl,+1 each 2lvl,...).
Exemple mg6 +1 per level.
Since best artifacts are tough to get,you have small chances(or tougher) to get a good sword at lvl10 than at lvl20.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 11, 2002 07:28 AM |
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Replies Regarding Heroes To: Jondifool, Thoman
Some promising thoughts from some 'newer' members.
"with a amulet of fear an hero could have no retaliation.
Now If the Hero had The Bull rune axe."
Yes, but the 'if' aspect worries me. These artifacts, aren't exactly too easy to obtain. The point is that this situation is unlikely, and the certain combination of artifacts needed to complete such an objective is even more so.
Although, if this combination does appear, the possibility of defeating 40 or so Black Dragons seems improbable. 8 Black Dragons is a mark well short of a pack or lots. 40X400HP equals 16,000 HP to diminish with one hero. This seems far fetched to me. But, if one decides to use 2 excellent heroes in conjunction (with one army) which is also improbable for a reason I'll explain later, then the Black Dragons may be in a bit of strife. 
"This is what is posible, but is it then realistic. No it's not."
Yes, that is a very true conclusion. The main reason it is possible is by someone creating it in the more 'able' map editor. So, I can conclude that in most instances, it is not possible to defeat a pack of Black Dragons with one seemingly powerful hero.
"I have no clear picture of what artifacts can do."
One thing is for sure, Jondifool, artifacts can have no solely negative effect. This is the only section of information I can confirm at this point. For more about artifacts, just look for my 'Artifacts: What Mighty Powers Lay Behind the Shield' thread which can be located in Djive's wonderful index.
"Right, another hero, magic one would solve that."
Yes, it would, but I have again reason to question the probability of this being done. Two powerful heroes working together in one army, just to balance it out? I myself would split them up, as then I wouldn't be limiting the space they can travel. Also the heroes may be able to uncover more of the FoG and flag more mines. Also here is more information derived from Holger's new thread:
"Therefore I predict that we will see an increase in the number of armies in H4 and therefore a decrease in army sizes - and these changes will demand the development of more heroes.... "
The latter part of that comment would lean you towards thinking more heroes mean we can spare more. Although, the reason for more heroes, is because there must be heroes to support more armies, which have a lower amount of creatures with them. Thus, I would split heroes up once in gameplay. Although a good argument there, Jondifool.
"You're arent wrong,but he gets 100 hit points when he starts.At 40,100 doesnt mean as much than it did at 5 or 10.In fact,the higher the hero is,the less hit points (per level) he has.He always gain 10.Exemple:at lvl5(140) he has 28hp per level.At 10(190) he has 19hp per level,and so on."
Yes, this may be true, but I am not aware of such information. But still, it verifies my point of the importance and seemingly low amount of HP, I believe 3DO have done this, because at high levels, other elements of heroes development increases, and this doesn't include HP.
It's a simple enough theory if you ask me.
"While defense could be less revelant,ranged and melee defense will be the same most of the time.Exceptions of few bonuses here and there."
Yes, that information is pretty much correct, but what you're forgetting is that artifacts affect a certain defense, and many other spells have different 'effectees' if you like. Thus, the difference changes.
"Also on artifact,yes 5hp is more significant at lvl2 than it is at lvl40.But in fact,there is much more artifact giving %(percentage) bonuses than a fix number."
I would have thought that spells had percentage in their certain purposes, but if artifacts have taken this on, it would be a large change. Still, with percentages the theory still stands. As, 50% of 20 attack is 10, while 50% of 10 is 5, and thus, a lower boost, considering these heroes are the same level.
Please reply if you have any other views.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted March 11, 2002 02:27 PM |
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to hydra who wrote
"Some promising thoughts from some 'newer' members"
thanks and nice too find a welcoming community! I think i'll be hanging around while.
hydrasays :"Two powerful heroes working together in one army, just to balance it out? I myself would split them up, as then I wouldn't be limiting the space they can travel. Also the heroes may be able to uncover more of the FoG and flag more mines."
I don't agree totally. I see a point in the beginning of the game. But later!! Here is my point
imagine the battles. Last hero standing would not only decide equal battles, no they would turn them in to a massacre! Spells would rule. And so would Combat skills.
Now a primitive exsample. One might hero with a huge stack of 4 level creature against an equal huge stack of 4 level creatures and a migth and a magic hero!. Now what!
Now first both parts try to get the opponnets heros out asap, to get rid of there bonus, and spells. So across the battlefield goes both the huge stacks of level 4 creaturs.
And down goes 1 magic hero and around later the opponents might hero ( he survives a little longer i hope !?!). Back is the might hero, being hunted. now what if the magic hero last spell, did haste or slow so the might hero can evade the enemy, or if it was a sanctuary, so he just can stand safe and add his bonus to his creatures. If the bonus is 50% to defense and 50% to attack, for all friendly creatures. well!! What a butchery! The difference between damage taken an damage givin if the 4 level stacks are euqual in stats, would be 225%. Battle over!
(now if army bonus is added for the whole battle it would be different case.. but would it change the conclussion).
Now off cause battle would be more complicated, and I can imagine a lot more tricks and spells to be in use. But who would dare to let his main army only be supported by one hero, considering the effect of above exsample! And looking at spells we could see a lot of disasters a standing magic hero could inflict!
"Please reply if you have any other views".
I'll say the same to you
Well this was on the topic of having more heroes in the army, i'll be back on the topic of artifact and heros strength , when i have a closer look on the subjekt.
with regards
Jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 11, 2002 05:45 PM |
bonus applied. |
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Some thinking..... answer to jondifool at the bottom.
I think what you will do with your heroes will depend on the map you are playing.I think you still have a limit of 8 heroes(on the map).2-3 heroes in every parties,will cut down the number of parties u can have out there.But you dont always need a hero to kill creatures or even ennemy's heros.
I doubt anyone can find the best solution,too many "if" out there.
On a small-medium map,having alot of parties isnt always the best solution.Winning first battle(s) will determine if you win or lose.
Fog of war:This will be a new feature to take into account.No more town portal,no more dim door.You cant afford to have one party with all your best troops in it,conquering more lands and defending your kingdom.Bigger is the map,the less it will be possible to have that"super party".
In early weeks,having one strong party and a couple of "bees" will be what i will try.(also depends how many castles i start with).The strong party will have most of my troops,will clean area around my castle and try to get(or at least spot) another castle.During that time,a hero with stealth or small creatures will explore a bit more.Also having a hero with nobility couldnt hurt.Also,heroes you can recruit is a factor.
What im not sure yet is how i will manage all this.Cuz even heros,with smaller tasks, need to level much more to be efficient.Having a thief,lord or any heros with basic skills isnt as efficient than heros with GM skills (yup,found this out by myself hehe).
Do i "group" my Lord with what will become my might/magic hero? Untill he gets a few level.
Do i leave them on their own,killing stuff they can? But if they are too weak,they could get attacked by wandering creatures....
Or i could level two good might/magic heros till they get very strong on their own? Then i could "group" them with weaker heros to help them level....Split my units,and keep exploring,conquering with two parties.
Or....
What is the best solution,i just dont know yet.Its easy to say i want a Nobility-GM,a GM-scout,an archmage and a general.But getting there is the challenge.Strategy.
In H3,there was almost no choices.Or choices had less impact.There was also the perfect Hero.Pick the right skills(earth,wisdom,air,logistic,....).Even if skills you chose could change,everyone wanted town portal,fly,dim door,mass slow,mass haste,...).I never picked eagle eye,first aid,mysticism,scholar or scouting by choice.
In H4,strategy seems to be at a level other titles never reached.Way more choices to do,every skills are important.How you deal with these choices will have much more impact on you game.Not only your choices,but your ennemies choices too.You could do "well" w/o any thieves,but what IF your ennemies has GM stealth hero(s)?Could cause you some problems.You could do well w/o nobility,but what IF you ennemy has two GM-nobility for two of his towns?
Too many IF to really start thinking what is best to do.How do these choices balance is also hard to know w/o having played yet.
REPLY TO JONDIFOOL
To focus on battles only is to forget everything around them.If your overall strategy is bad,even if you have a good mage with a good barbarian at his side.The pack of dragon you have may be facing a horde of behemoths.
Sure if you both have 12 angels,the party having two heros will surely win.More possibilities.But if your strategy is based on this,you might end up facing more troops then you think.
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted March 11, 2002 08:44 PM |
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This gets rather long , my apologise for that. But its easy to get dragged deep into topics here. Hydra thanks for the link to your old great post! Getting back to you thorman in another post tomorrow!
I was just thinking as response to hydra!! 40 black dragons! Thats an awfull lot of dragons! 40 weeks of production or 10 months if only having production from 1 town. Well its 7 month , backed up by GM nobility. And then the town have to build level 4 dwelling also. With 2 towns we are properly somewhere in month 5 before such a army can be mustered.
So offcause it needs to be extreame combinations if a sole might hero should be able to be a force to recon with against that. Up against 7-10 month of production! But it can be done, exstreame unlikely, but posible, this is my conclussion looking at the list of artifacts!!
The point there is more interesting is if a might hero can be developed at same pace as creatures is procuced.
Properly his frontline abillitys would be faded out with more towns contributing to the produktion.
But where does it tip. Because when it tips, he would be in there just for his bonus to armys,hiding behind the lines but can he then survive for long enough, for the army to benefit?- asuming a dead hero don’t give bonus to the army!!
So the 3 factors to look at is the pace he would gain level, the artifacts he can aquire, and the numbers of towns (especially same towns) the map gives players! Big maps with few towns and a lot of artifacts does look like the paradice of the might hero! And the other way around. Small maps, with alot of developed towns and few artifacts, just not a place for a might hero. (thinking of the barbarian it all sounds logical to me !!)
Towns can be counted on a map , and to some degree our experience from the other homm maps can gives us an idea when there is to many towns, for a might hero to be on his own, or just in the front line.
The speed of the hero gaining levels is quite dificult to predict, I won’t do that
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About artifact
I’ll like to discuss what I found from http://www.mmportals.com/h4/h4artifacts.html.
Just one word of warning. I am aware that this numbers are not final , or reliable , so i have tried make exsample there reflects whats possible with different combinations, because i think that the general picture might be a little more trustworthy then.
from their list on treasure level artifacts. the second lowest artifact class. Lovest Item level looks like mostly shopitems.
Dwarven Hammer - +6 damage in melee fighting, with an additional +2 damage for each level of the hero.
Dwarven Shield - All units in command radius get 10% health point, 10% chance of Blocking an attack (no damage)
Ring of Protection - All units within the Hero's radius of command get a 10% bonus in Health Points.
Ring of Strength - +6 damage to all attacks by Hero, with additional +1 damage per Hero level.
Elven Chain Mail - Hero's health points are increased by 25%.
Nothing special, But it all adds up! I am not sure it would be that difficult to collect artifacts to keep a might hero in there for a long part of the game. And he could have good spinoffs , like luck bonus, the blocking bonus above, from other artifacts. Now too a closer look on how fast it ads up, and the consequenses!
The term I am looking att is how developed is a battle hero is.
The math in it comes down to that a hero can increase his defense, his attack , his damage and his health. And if he doubles all he is 2x2x2x2= 16 times as developed, or 16 times as strong.
This offcause is of not importance if he is killed in one blow anyway! (coming back to that!)
From earlier post we know that he have skills to take his attack and defence ahead of everything else.(se earlyer post in tread). So he needs artifacts to get his health and damage high.
exsample
lets asume that an hero reach a level where he can fight on equal terms with 1 avarage level 4 creature. He would ned to have expert melee and expert combat. This means defense 30 and attack 30, health around 250 and damage around 40. (no idea of if there is a hero level this fits. The numbers might be a lot different.- but how they increase with artifacts does not differ because of that, and thats what the exsample is about.)
But instead he could have 60% defence and 60% in attack Grandmaster combat, Master Melee suported with GM Defense,is needed.(not counting the reducing of monster defence in this exsample). For simplicity he is still thought of as having 250 health and doing 40 base damage
Lets give him some minor level artifacts
Giant Slayer - Doubles melee damage against Level 4 Units. Damage inflicted against hero is reduced by 5%. (choosen for simpicitys sake, a weapon increasing his damage to 80 could do!!)
Golden Plate Mail - Hero gains 75% health point bonus.
And 2 treasure class artifacts from the exsample above!
Dwarven Shield - All units in command radius get 10% health point, 10% chance of Blocking an attack (no damage)
Ring of Protection - All units within the Hero's radius of command get a 10% bonus in Health Points.
This turns into close to 2x attack , 2x defence, 2x health, 2x damage! Or 16 times as strong a hero, or should I call it 16 times as combat developed or 16 times as combat able! He would (maybe) survive 4 times as long and deal 4 times as much damage. If getting a hero up there early , he would chruch opponents stacks ! but it also requires quite a few levels to get there.
With GM skill levels at combat , melee, defense and offense he would reach 3x attack (or close to, but up to 8x more if counting in defense reduction) , 3x defence. (se earlyer post in this thread for this) , uh forgot his double strike.
And the first question is then how much would artifacts do then.
To get to the 3x damage in the exsample he needs to do 120 damage. This means properly items together giving +4/+5 damage each level. And to have 3x health, he could have the relic adamantium armor providing +200% health.
Or the major artifact. Scale Mail of Strength - Incerased Hero's Health by 50%. All damage is reduced by 50%.
meaning exsactly the same!! Or he could have other combinations, reaching 3x health. Not easy, but posible to come across (good armor and shield, then ring or helmet would.do ) There is no garanty that the artifacts can boost health and damage to 3x base level on a given map, but the requirements to get there or get close with some combination , does not shake me! And if not able to find weapons to boost a heros damage I will be surprised!
3x att, 3x defence 3x htpoints , 3x damage turns into an 81 times as ”developed” a hero as before.
Or 9 times as long survivance potential and (at least ) 9 times as much damage
But the cruical point is if he can survive long enough to deal damage? If he does not survive 9 times as long then the effect of being 81 times as developed , does not turn into being 81 times as strong! And he would not stand 1 stack with 81 avarage 4th level units, they do around 1000 damage to him in 1 shoot! But he would maybe destroy a lot of few to a lot if they where split in 7 stacks!!
But there is other protective ressources. So the hero might be even better off in the battle.
Wards , blocking , luck, and reduced damage, (no retaliation too) and increased hitpoints, from artifacts all add to the safety of the hero. And he might even cast or get a protective spell or 2 , and drink some potions before joining the fray
And this can all translate into a higher safety, or in effect higher hitpoints. And finally the hero might have gained some levels there gives him more base hitpoints than the 250 from the base exsample. So with some of these effects achieved from all sources, he might even take the first couple of hits against the 80 creatures big level 4 stack. He does not need to survive that many attacks, before his supirior damage kicks in. The exsample of 40 basedamage turns ito 360 , (potential around 1000 with the defense reduction counted in!) First strike and double strike then to be added from GM melee.
My conclussion is If GM skills development, good preparetion , and a little artifacts luck, a spell or two , some potions , can make a hero hang in there for some rounds against 80 level 4 creatures , he is actual close to be too strong!!
And if he can´t be killed in 1 round , his damage can be healed if healing is avaliable , (dread if he had the life steal item).
A healing magic hero troops would have to be killed first , because he would maybe heal him right up! Or the might hero could maybe run from the action, be healed, drink potions and come back. A couple of spellcasting units (genies, magis and others) could be a really strong company for this hero , if their spells suit him. (blur comes to my mind!! 50% increased defense). Also if angels can resurrect heroes, haven is going to be very very strong with the might hero. What does it help to kill the maniac might hero , if he comes back when you don’t have power to kill him anymore just to turn the tide of the battle.
So a Might hero could gets to weak in the long endgame, against massed stacks, but he could also get lucky as well and get to strong in the mid game , if getting the lucky artifacts and right skills . And woe to opponents , if facing him in such a situation, where he is ahead in the race!
And with all this I just realize that this post is so long that it properly wont get a response! I might learn something for that, what most people know here that ” the game would tell shortly”.
Greatings
Jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted March 12, 2002 07:11 AM |
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Wow! sure is good to see this thread back alive
A few things I have thought of reading this:
number of heroes limited? From all info I have read, you will be limited to 8 mobile armies, no matter what their composition. This could be 2 heroes, plus 5 creature stacks per army, or in an extreme case, a grand total of 56 (7 stacks x 8 armies) heroes in action.
artifacts: Lower level heroes will want to use lower level arifacts, which is good, as those will likely be the ones they CAN get. Higher level heroes will want percentage based or level based artifacts, and should be able to get them.
large stacks of "low level" creatures: I think these will be harder to come by, as has been pointed out, zero loss battles will be much rarer.
overall: strategy will beat tactics more easily in heroes IV than in III. Just my opinion here.
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 12, 2002 10:27 PM |
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Heroes, Artifacts, and other Bonuses in Battle
Interesting topic, I'm sure all will be revealed when the game finally graces our shores, but until then, the discussions need not cease. (They need not cease after, either )
"Last hero standing would not only decide equal battles, no they would turn them in to a massacre! Spells would rule. And so would Combat skills."
Hmmm. So if they both rule... Does there really need to be another 'powerful' hero backing him up? I would opt for a weaker hero to work alongside my stronger hero, but I would not flounder the chance to have not one, but 2 strong armies exploring the map. I agree that it is good to have to strong heroes in the one army, but not at the price of sacrificing a whole army without a strong hero.
I believe it is much more economical to have one powerful hero, leaning towards one side, but also have at least some mystical knowledge, too. It is good to have a hero with 800 HP, but then, on the other hand, it isn't good to have a hero with no spells. You see, one would be helping the other, at the price of something that can be resolved a different and less costly way, in terms of gameplay.
"One might hero with a huge stack of 4 level creature against an equal huge stack of 4 level creatures and a migth and a magic hero!."
Now this: Because of the lack of available experience in small to medium sized maps, there obviously will be a lack of powerful heroes. This also calls for smaller armies. While having to heroes in a powerful army is excellent, just think that your other army is there without a strong leader, or without one at all! You are actually handicapping your other army as you can't spare a relatively powerful hero.
"Back is the might hero, being hunted. now what if the magic hero last spell, did haste or slow so the might hero can evade the enemy,"
While That is a correct visualisation, the easier solution is to spare one hero a level up, and instead of teaching him advanced offense, teach him a basic magic field, therefore he will be able to cast those simple, but vital spells that you mentioned there. Thus, resulting in the enemy getting hindered, in the same way as it would have been with your method.
"(now if army bonus is added for the whole battle it would be different case.. but would it change the conclussion)."
Nope, you're right there, it wouldn't change the conclusion. But another point is, would the conclusion have changed significantly if one had taught those simple spells to the hero? No, the array of spells needed there didn't require a whole hero to cast them.
Maybe later in the game, a 'junior hero' can be enlisted in helping the army in simple matters, and also if you like playing with 1 or 2 armies, which really wouldn't be a great strategy. Although, most of the time, a well balanced hero could take care of most matters.
"But who would dare to let his main army only be supported by one hero"
I don't see a real problem being supported by only one hero in the middle-latter stages of the game. Now, indeed, Heroes III only allowed for 1 hero per army. And all it could do was cast spells and give bonuses. Then, wouldn't it be fair to say that only one more is needed to balance out these turn of events, and even with both capable of those previous abilities and more!
I don't think i'll ever place 3 heroes in one army. Its just not economical enough. With a limit of 8 heroes I think, I would rather not limit my heroes.
"will cut down the number of parties u can have out there."
Yep, that is a vital, hopefully known fact. I think that 2 heroes would be adequate for a powerful army later in the game. Having more than that would, as you mentioned, cut down the number of armies possible. And from what i've heard, the maps are a fair sized larger than they used to be.
"I doubt anyone can find the best solution,too many "if" out there."
Well, if you are talking about strategies which you have a considerable amount of information on, it would probably be best to use more reassuring words, other than 'if'.
"Bigger is the map,the less it will be possible to have that"super party"."
Indeed, that will probably be the case in most instances, although it is still possible to have many armies, just very weak ones which can be used as 'scouters'. But generally I would have thought that would be the formula.
More heroes in one army = less armies.
"During that time,a hero with stealth or small creatures will explore a bit more.Also having a hero with nobility couldnt hurt.Also,heroes you can recruit is a factor."
Yes, that would be a general strategy, although these games are much more complicated than any other Heroes versions previously. Fog of War would hinder one's progress throughout the map, even with the stealth ability active.
But, yes, this strategy seems to be sound enough.
"Not only your choices,but your ennemies choices too."
It would be wise in Heroes IV to pick a hero that excelled against a certain enemy. Such as the Necropolis would be thwarted by Life and so on. The skills chosen also affect the heroes in more ways than one.
1: The Heroes are able to develop through the levels and having GrandMaster status in some areas.
2: The skills one chooses determines what class one would be classified under. For example: a certain combination would have you listed under a Warlock.
3: These classes in fact do have special bonuses, which can be vital to the type of game you're playing.
"Thats an awfull lot of dragons! 40 weeks of production or 10 months if only having production from 1 town."
Yes, I admit that this figure is unrealistic, and sometimes could be considered as inconceivable. But, I believe it would be the amount of level 4 Black Dragons that could be mustered in the time it takes to build up such an army like you suggested. I would have it as a guess that the game would be more diverse, and therefore taking longer periods of time, maybe even years is possible before a kingdom reaches an outcome.
"So the 3 factors to look at is the pace he would gain level, the artifacts he can aquire, and the numbers of towns (especially same towns) the map gives players! Big maps with few towns and a lot of artifacts does look like the paradice of the might hero!"
This event is extremely unlikely, as a large map, I expect would contain at least 15 castles or towns. I would rather see a wider variety of towns on the map, as in some maps, there needs to be variety in order for certain strategies to work. I believe it is good to take a bit from every castle, and then channel it towars 2 heroes, so they can both have the benefits.
"The speed of the hero gaining levels is quite dificult to predict, I won’t do that"
Yes, although what I can see coming out of this is that Hero development in Heroes IV will be much more difficult and will take a longer duration of time than it did in Heroes III. This is mainly due to the number of possible attributes a hero can possess. Another valid reason is that there are many classes that are the result of skills and other enhancements throughout the game.
"And he could have good spinoffs , like luck bonus, the blocking bonus above, from other artifacts."
Well, as I see it, a might hero would have to be very lucky to collect the artifacts he wants. Also, if you want you might hero to be good at magic. (Even though I would pick a balanced hero like paladin) But saying this, artifacts that have to do with spells would generally go towards helping the main spellcasting hero. But, in a case where skills are nearly balanced, I would just a small necessary portion of them going towards my other hero. This will give the small boosts he needs to be proficient in both areas.
"So he needs artifacts to get his health and damage high."
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to prove here, but it sounds interesting...
Having a powerful might hero is good, but having another strong hero with him isn't. I think one might orientated hero would be able to fend for himself until the mid to late game. Providing that he had some mystical knowledge, too. Once in the endgame, you can put another novice hero to help him, who is good with the mystical side of things, but also possesses some martial knowledge.
That is just my view on things at this point in time.
"To get to the 3x damage in the exsample he needs to do 120 damage. This means properly items together giving +4/+5 damage each level. And to have 3x health, he could have the relic adamantium armor providing +200% health."
This is too coencidental for me. I don't think I'd be able to obtain all these boosts and enhancers to make my hero stronger...All in one game. Yes, the strategy does work, I'm pretty sure, but these instances are just too unlikely to happen. Its good that you proved your point in some way though.
"My conclussion is If GM skills development, good preparetion , and a little artifacts luck, a spell or two , some potions , can make a hero hang in there for some rounds against 80 level 4 creatures , he is actual close to be too strong!!"
Yes, but the combination and the availability of experience and other such artifacts and spells are just not there. Grand Master skills development takes a very long time, and I would find it hard to find more than 3 GrandMaster skills. The process for hero experience is an extremely long process. Also, by this time, the enemy would have at least 3 castles, and have a selection of 3 level 4 creatures, having around 40, 30, 20 creatures. Then you must take into account the number of other level creatures in their army.
I think that you're asking too much to do all this work with one 'super' hero in the latter stages of the game. The era of the super hero is over, as mentioned previously in this thread, what's needed is to spread your experience over 2 heroes, as it would be a much quicker process then.
Thankyou for this discussion, Tristan, I think I've said something about the points you mentioned, too.
Sorry for the length.
My apologies for drawing this post out even futher, I have a few comments to make on the below discussions.
"As I've said before, you don't want any of your armies to be without heroes, because it means that you won't get any XP if you defeat monsters. Heroless armies are mainly used to pick up freebies and to scout areas."
Yes, that is a vital area of the creature-hero link in battles. As Heroes were compulsory to have with an army in Heroes 1,2, 3, some of this has rubbed onto Heroes IV, because of the change that creatures may roam free.
This point, when you think about it more, was inevitable and a very logical conclusion.
"That super barbarian of yours may be stronger, but if the enemy can outrun and outmanouever your hero each and every turn, then you will have very little use for that strength"
I believe you were referring to jondifool in that statement. Hmmm. It's not so much a question of outmanouevering, it is a question of whether the Barbarian, being martially orientated can stand up to mystical enthusiasts like Warlocks. Each side of Might and Magic has thier ways, if a spell was cast on a hero of that stature, there would be great problems, as he would not be able to counter them.
Its a difficult strategic part of the game, battling is.
"It is quite possible to get 3 high level hero I would guess however"
Hmmm. I have my doubts. On small maps, I'd think it would be extremely difficult to get 3 heroes over level 30. You are talking about 90 levels in total. I think that this is a large total if you ask me.
I think you'll find people struggling to get 2 heroes over level 30.
{Edited}
It has been confirmed that the maximum level for heroes is level 99.
Thankyou for your contributions.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Helias_GR
Hired Hero
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posted March 13, 2002 03:41 PM |
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Combat Primary Skill - Hero can defend more effectively. Higher levels allow a greater reduction in damage taken by combat.
GrandMaster - Increases the parameters Melee Defense and Ranged Defense to 60.
Magic Resistance - Hero gains increasing resistance to all magical attacks.
GrandMaster - The hero is completly immune to all magic spells.
Dark Priest: Hero gains Vampirism: for every 2 HP Damage to the enemy, 1 HP is recovered.
Combine this with GM combat
Holy snow!!!!
Does this means that the dark priest will be a very tough motha f**** ???
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Helias_GR
"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right."
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 13, 2002 03:48 PM |
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Dark priest=life+death skill.Add combat,melee,.... you end up with a very high level hero.
Combo of life and death wont be easy to get,two opposite magic.
But yes,this could be a very strong very.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted March 13, 2002 05:25 PM |
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Quote:
Dark priest=life+death skill.Add combat,melee,.... you end up with a very high level hero.
Combo of life and death wont be easy to get,two opposite magic.
But yes,this could be a very strong very.
Actually, this is not true at all. If you look at the town buildings you will find the Seminary and the University. If you look at the skills taught there you will find all Magic Disciplines except Chaos Magic. Both Life and Death can be found in the University (Academy).
The conclusion is that if you start with an Academy it will be dead easy to become a Dark priest. First of you can recruit the Magic Heros who has Life Magic and Death Magic in Academy Tavern and secondly because you can build the University which tutors the missing skill.
Similarily if you start with Haven (with the Seminary) it will similarily be very easy to combine Nature and Order Magic Hero and get that advanced class.
The other opposing Magic combinations will be more difficult to obtain.
Overall I believe you overvalue the benefit of developing one single Hero or even two Heroes. The XP which is placed on the Map is limited, so all you can do is divide it between your heroes.
As I've said before, you don't want any of your armies to be without heroes, because it means that you won't get any XP if you defeat monsters. Heroless armies are mainly used to pick up freebies and to scout areas.
In Heroes 3 you didn't need to give your Scout any XP. In heroes 4 that same scout won't be nearly as useful if you don't let that hero develope. That means however that your best hero gets fewer XP.
In Heroes 3, at the end of a scenario with an L map, I usually end up around level 20-25 before the final battle with the best hero. It's actually fairly difficult to develope a hero beyond this level, as level up is usually gained by visiting a Tree of Knowledge.(In the early game Learning Stones usually provide 1000-3000 XP, depending how many are placed in the vicinity.)
Because (late-game) most of the XP actually is provided by this map structure (and not through combats), it is beneficial to develope many heroes. And then we're not talking 1-2 Heroes but rather 10 or more Heroes.
In Heroes 3, only swamp, snow and rough gave terrain penalties. In heroes 4 there are artifacts to remove terrain penalty for all the basic terrain types, so unless you have a Scout/Pathfinindg Hero with you to remove the penalty you will now find travelling tedious in enemy terrain.
That super barbarian of yours may be stronger, but if the enemy can outrun and outmanouever your hero each and every turn, then you will have very little use for that strength. You may take their castle after struggling five days through the swamps, but what then ... if you leave the castle the enemy will attack and retake it, and if you stay then what happens if the enemy attacks YOUR castle with some of their army?
It would otherwise be intersting to know if and how terrain penalty will apply to heroes. A basic class can likely have the corresponding terrain as native... But would an advanced class have two native terrains, and an archmage even more?
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted March 13, 2002 05:47 PM |
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interesting discussion
What it all comes down to in the battles and such is not totally known until game is release, but I would agree using only 1 hero in a battle is extremely risky. More than 2 is quite possible, more than 3 unlikely since it would be difficult to get that many high level heroes.
It is quite possible to get 3 high level hero I would guess however. A might hero is a small army in his own right, sending out 1-2 of these guys soon as possible lets you explore quick and also gain them levels, the magic guy stays with your creatures and gains levels in standard H3 way. Alo how effective potions are compared to spells is really an important point... and how easily they are gotten and used.
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted March 17, 2002 01:38 PM |
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more on "the super hero"
First, I read some rumours about a battle where 6 Devils had teleported over and killed a level 18 mage in 1 hit, before the mage got his turn! Reflecting on this, I hope that this history is somehow untrue , or that they have tweaked heros to have more hitpoints. The point that hitpoints losses carries over from one battle to another, maybe from one week to another, makes room for a hp beef up and still not having heroes being to powerfull in start of the game.
On sceenshoots I sav recently a level 1 mage with 220 hp dam 22-35.
A level 1 barbarian had 330 hitpoints, 33-49 in damage.
I quess that it would be reasonble to expect a 10% increase in thesse stats for each level increase
Now its better numbers than earlyer where as I expect somewhere around 100 starting hitpoints, and an increase like 10 hp each level. Much of my concern around a heroes ability to goes up against large stacks of level 4 creatures, have been focused if the hero had Hitpoints enough to withstand more than 1 hit.
If the quess about around 10% increase for each hero level holds true, we are looking at heroes having up to 3 times as many hitpoints as in the exsamples from my earlier post! And the Damage ranges looks also quite bigger also! It looks like this puts the heroes in the leaque of a level 4 creature immidiatly, except for attack and defense!
This means that all the speculation on how to develop a hero from being on equal terms with 1 avarage level 4 creature to be 16 as developed (the 2x2x2x2 exsample), and further to be 81 times as developed (the 3x3x3x3 exsample) can come around without the effects froms artifacts! What can then artifacts bring it to!
With thesse numbers in mind I actual hope that Hydra are right that it would be difficult to beef this a lot more with artifacts, because if not the Might hero could then get too strong!
Now the Super barbarian is properly still unrealistic, because he needs a very high level to get there!
But the point that he doesn’t need that much from artifacts makes him a lot more possible! (good news for the barbarian!)
Now their is some different subjekts this thread have resolved around lately! Mine have been 1) the abillity for 1 might hero to stand up against a large level 4 creature stack (adressed in first part of the post)
2) the question about having 1 or more hero in your main army. The second came for me as a offspring of the closer look on artifacts abillitys to make a difference on the first subjekt!
The points to have 2 (or more heroes) had been for me that if only a ”might” hero can stand in there for more than 1 round against the strongest opponent stack, 2 heroes would be mininmum to let the heroes have some impact on the battle.
Thorman writes a reply to me
”To focus on battles only is to forget everything around them.If your overall strategy is bad,even if you have a good mage with a good barbarian at his side.The pack of dragon you have may be facing a horde of behemoths.
Sure if you both have 12 angels,the party having two heros will surely win.More possibilities.But if your strategy is based on this,you might end up facing more troops then you think. ”
And to hydra (talking about a might and magic hero in battle)
”Hmmm. So if they both rule.. Does there really need to be another 'powerful' hero backing him up? I would opt for a weaker hero to work alongside my stronger hero, but I would not flounder the chance to have not one, but 2 strong armies exploring the map. I agree that it is good to have to strong heroes in the one army, but not at the price of sacrificing a whole army without a strong hero.”
And I agree, with both of you. But, to answer the questions about a hero’s role in a battle I need to focus on battles, and that is not a recomandation about how to play the game. It’s an exploration about what might be possible. I think you are right hydra, that 2 armies would be needed at least in a long part of the game. And you came up with a lot of interesting arguments about that!
When thats said, I like to say that when fighting the main battle, deciding the game, youre need one or more heroes with the strenght to survive more than the first round (or two) to let your hero(es) have some impact on the battle! And if they have no impact there is not much reason to bring them!
Maybe the game is balanced in a way so there is no longer is one main battle! But on the other hand, there will be big battles( at least on some maps !!) and the point is still then that the hero needs to have impact to have role there! And if 1 hero goes down to fast , 2 could make the day! Because there is no doubt about that heros can have a big impact! (look at the developed tactics hero as an exsample!).
But it looks like in the screens I saw that a hero would have hitpoint to hang in there a little longer, making the dire need for a second hero a little less! And if a hero can survive a round or 2, he might as just protect himself with a few spells, (good point hydra). On the other hand against a high number of devils a hero might just be plain dead, before anything else! ( or after a wait, then hit , and teleport into safety again, this gives the hero 1 round to act in!).
There is a lot of things to make comments on, but I won’t do that! Because I think we are close to have covered the topic to a level where whats left is mainly ”IF”s about thing we don’t have any way to know!
Thanks for the exchange of thoughts
With regards
Jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted March 17, 2002 05:04 PM |
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Advanced Classes
If I'm breaking the flow of conversation here(which I hope I'm not), forgive me. On the Advanced Hero Class Bonuses thread, it has been said that in order for a Hero to become an advanced class, they must have a weight of 2 in two skill families. Weight is calculated by the level of skills, for example, Basic Chaos Magic is a weight of 1, and Advanced is 2, so on and so forth, up until Grandmaster, which has a weight of 5.
Now, if this is true, then it is theoretically possible for a Hero to become an advanced class at Level 3. Let's take the Hero Mayweda, for example:
Mayweda is recruited as a level 1 Sorcerer. She has Basic Chaos Magic, along with Basic Sorcery. This gives her a weight of 2 in that skill family already. Then, at Level 2, Mayweda learns Basic Nature Magic. At level 3, she learns Basic Herbalism, making her a Level 3 Warlock.
Is this right? Or are some people extremely confused(they say that this info came from heroes.ag.ru, and so I wonder if something messed up in the translation?)?
If so, then do Heroes have to have a, say, weight of five or something in a class? Or do they have to have Grandmaster in the Primary Skill?
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 21, 2002 08:55 PM |
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While it might be easy to be dark priest with academy(and only academy),does it worth it?
First,these two skills need to be the two highest in "weight",dark priest=leech hp's.....
In order to leech,you need to get into melee range(?),if death and life are your top two skills,there is good chances you wont have any or very few skills in combat....in other words,you'll be some crappy "might" hero and your advanced class really doesnt benifit ya well other than few exceptions.
Also,even if you start with academy,will you go for life-death combo? Means you wont go for order magic? Going for life-death means you need to build your mage guild and two annexes(if you want to cast some spells).Costly choice.
Annexes(2):4000gold,22wood,22ore,5gem,5crystal,5mercury,11sulfur
University:5750gold,5wood,5ore,2sulfurs,2gems
Skills:2000gold each
Not counting mage guild.
Might be "easy" to get basic skills....at what cost? And that is with academy,only town offering both life and death magic.
Anyway,i wouldnt build my heroes based on advanced classes,i dont see any that worth it that much.Sure you can "play" with your skills,but chosing two skills only to get that advanced class doesnt worth it.
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted March 25, 2002 03:06 AM |
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I see what you mean. You prefer to build your Hero statwise, not skillwise. But, seeing as you get better stats as you increase levels, and since with levels come skills, you might as well become the advanced class as early as possible, since it won't hurt you, nor will it pull you off track your other strategy.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted March 28, 2002 06:06 PM |
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If you want to add something new and interesting please don't just edit a previous post(Unless it is the same day, or no other posts follow your post) It's not user friendly, when you edit a post that is a week old and 8 posts up. It's hard to find the new info, so it won't make people respond.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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