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| Thread: Congresswoman shot |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Aculias
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posted January 10, 2011 07:16 PM |
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With Mionion asking about the real targets.
The Killer had many beliefs about Politics & the real target was Gafford, but also was everyone associated with that meeting.
He hated her & found her politics unsatisfactory.
From years he followed her views. Disagreed with them & seeing her becoming more successful to his liking.
Since this was premeditated, This may of been a mass killing he has planned ahead of time.
As he is known to scare many people from his emotions.
So therefore he knew about the meeting, he knew anyone associated with the meeting would be harmed.
He knew where the first shot was going to go.
So yea she was the main target but so was the others.
his unsatisfactory of her politics was the main target.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 10, 2011 07:22 PM |
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What I mean is, that it is a deeply UNPOLITICAL deed.
It's an INSANE deed, and in the end it has nothing whatsoever to do with politics.
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Aculias
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posted January 10, 2011 08:21 PM |
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Why yes at first this was all because of political views.
Then it just turned out to be just hatred of one person & her views.
A built in hatred
It just turned out to be mass murder which was premeditated.
Which means this is no different then any other mass murders that has happened in this world.
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bLiZzArdbOY
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posted January 10, 2011 08:32 PM |
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Except for the part where a member of Congress was shot in the head.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 10, 2011 09:49 PM |
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You just follow the insanity of the killer.
What he thinks why he shot her is nullified by shooting on every available target, a little girl included.
First and foremost the killer is INSANE. Everyone could have been in the focus of his "interest"
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Binabik
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posted January 10, 2011 10:25 PM |
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Myt, you can delete my post if you want, but doing so is like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the issue.
This was not a personal shooting, it was a political shooting. At the personal level, yes it's a very sad thing. But that's not what it's about. Focusing on the personal side is ignoring the real issue. Focusing on the guy probably being insane is ignoring the real issue. Focusing on Sarah Palin's supposed role, or the role of conservative talk show hosts is ignoring the real issue.
There is a very strong undercurrent that's been around before this guy was even born, before anyone ever heard of Palin or Limbaugh. People blame Palin for instigating this sort of thing. She didn't instigate it, she merely reflects what already exists.
People are PISSED, and they are pissed for good reason. This is nothing new. Killings like this were predictable and even expected. I'm surprised there hasn't been more of them.
People can put their heads in the sand if they want, but it won't make the issue go away.
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Adrius
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posted January 10, 2011 10:36 PM |
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You saying that better politics will keep insane people from hurting others?
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del_diablo
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posted January 10, 2011 11:00 PM |
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He is saying that Palin is a symptom, a big one.
And there must be a disease for there to be a symptom.
Careerism politicians amd stuff like the the snowed up bill voting process I have heard about over here seems to be part of the disease.
Binabik is more or less saying: If there was not to bloody much amount of corrupt politicans around, and the people got their votes in, and IT WORKED, there would not be that many random attempts at killing polticans.
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Binabik
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posted January 10, 2011 11:03 PM |
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I said it's not about this guy being insane. (Have you heard they saying "liquid courage" in reference to alcohol? Maybe insanity is similar to "liquid courage"?)
As far as "better" politics? Hmmm, not really, depending on your definition of politics. Politics implies working within the system. But if the system itself is broken, then politics is not the answer.
Let me ask a question. When you have two political parties that are almost always opposed to each other in almost every way; then the population kicks out one of those parties to be replaced with the other one; then turns around in a very short period of time and kicks the second one out to be replaced again by the first; do you think people change their fundamental political views in that short time?
This is only a portion of what's going on, more like a symptom than anything else, but what are the implications of such rapid swings from one extreme to the other?
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Elodin
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posted January 10, 2011 11:16 PM |
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Quote:
He is saying that Palin is a symptom, a big one.
And there must be a disease for there to be a symptom.
The shooter's favorite writings are the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kamph. Obviously he was inspired by the extreme left, not by Palin. His actions have nothing at all to do with the Tea Party movement. The tea pary wrath is expressed through rhetoric and voting not through violence. No conservative candidate called for violence.
It is unfortunate the left wiing media has tried to tie the shooter to the right when in fact he is one of their own.
I do agree that there are a lot of angry voters because Washington has been extending the middle finger salute to them and has been passing legislation that the voters are opposed to. Such politics is the reason for the rise of the Tea Party.
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Aculias
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posted January 10, 2011 11:32 PM |
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It's just like in here.
it is the same as debating religion.
Debating Politics is the same thing.
it causes the hatred & determination to get his point across.
He was insane but it was premeditated & planned.
Basically Bibanik said it better then i did!
They need security with meetings like this.
This was a political shooting like i was saying, but this was also personal towards Giffords. It was personal for many years, not just recently.
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Vlaad
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posted January 10, 2011 11:36 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 23:37, 10 Jan 2011.
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Quote:
The shooter's favorite writings are the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kamph. Obviously he was inspired by the extreme left, not by Palin. His actions have nothing at all to do with the Tea Party movement. The tea pary wrath is expressed through rhetoric and voting not through violence. No conservative candidate called for violence.
It is unfortunate the left wiing media has tried to tie the shooter to the right when in fact he is one of their own.
The Communist Manifesto is far left, but Mein Kampf is far right. Which is all completely irrelevant, because the shooter was mentally ill.
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Elodin
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posted January 10, 2011 11:53 PM |
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Quote:
The Communist Manifesto is far left, but Mein Kampf is far right.
No, The National Socialist Party (Hitler's party) is far left, not far right. Mein Kamph is far left.
The point is that the leftist media tries to tie the shooter to Palin when in fact his political viewpoints are those of the left, not those of conservatives and thus his motivations are from the left, not from the right.
Also, if anyone has any doubts about "inciteful" rhetoric from the left I'll be glad to give some from today's American left-wing politicians or I could go futhur back if you wish. Certainly much futhur back than the tea party.
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Vlaad
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posted January 11, 2011 12:28 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 06:51, 13 Jan 2011.
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No, The National Socialist Party (Hitler's party) is far left, not far right. Mein Kamph is far left.
In theory Nazism as an ideology combined far left and far right, but in practice the Nazi Party was mainly far right. Mein Kampf is far right. The standard definitions agree that far right politics usually involve supremacism, segregation, authoritarianism, racism and xenophobia, and reject social equality as a norm. The ideologies usually associated with the far right include fascism, Nazism and other ultra-nationalist, religiously extreme or reactionary ideologies.Quote:
The point is that the leftist media tries to tie the shooter to Palin when in fact his political viewpoints are those of the left, not those of conservatives and thus his motivations are from the left, not from the right.
The point is you're doing the same thing you're accusing "the leftist media" of - tying the shooter to the opposite side.
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Azagal
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posted January 11, 2011 12:44 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 00:44, 11 Jan 2011.
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Thanks for clearing that up Vlad. I'd know you're all clever people but I to make it perfectly clear: "Mein Kampf" was far right aswell as hitlers NSDAP. The NSDAP did (as Vlad already explained) bring the far left and the far right together but the left elements were for the most part just to get the left-oriented people to join their programe. It was a "Volkspartei" spanning a huge demographic. So Eldin my apologies but Hitler and his party were far right. I know the terminology for "left" and "right" is a bit different in the US but there is no mistaken Hitler and his book. They're far right. And now I'll tip toe out of this again...
(I really only just posted because my history teachers would kill me if I hadn't said anything... as a kid in a german school you hear all about this stuff all the time )
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Binabik
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posted January 11, 2011 12:52 AM |
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*ignores Elodin*
Quote:
He is saying that Palin is a symptom, a big one.
And there must be a disease for there to be a symptom.
That's part of what I'm saying, yes.
However the part about Palin can easily be misconstrued. Consider her relationship with the tea party movement. The original movement was bi-partisan to a large degree, with support from both sides of center. It was the result of a lot of pent up anger (understatement). Palin was an opportunist who took advantage of the movement. Her role was not bi-partisan like the original movement, and therefore does not represent the widespread anger of the people. The result was that it bascially diluted and masked the underlying problem, and made it appear to be just another far right group. As just another far right group they became a part of the problem, furthering the alienation of the people and their underlying anger.
The portion of that movement that was already on the far right might think it a good thing. However the real strength of the movement was the bi-partisan grass roots aspect of it. The portion who were not from the right saw their dreams shattered. Not that they were under any illusions that the movement would result in effective change, but the movement was grass roots and it was THEIR'S - only to be stolen from them by the entrenched politcal machine.
Quote:
Binabik is more or less saying: If there was not to bloody much amount of corrupt politicans around, and the people got their votes in, and IT WORKED, there would not be that many random attempts at killing polticans.
No, that's not what I'm saying. OK, the if "IT WORKED" part is true. But what I'm really saying is that it DOESN'T work, and that it WON'T work with the current system. Voting for different politicians is not going to work, because the system itself is severely broken. People can vote all they want and it's not going to change a thing. It makes people feel hopeless and frustrated as hell when they have a non-functioning government and there's not a damn thing they can do about it. They begin to feel (rightfully) that more extreme measures need to be taken.
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Corribus
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posted January 11, 2011 12:56 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 00:57, 11 Jan 2011.
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Most left-right classifications are pretty much meaningless in any case when it comes to real-world ideologies. Trying to define nazism or fascism or communism or whateverism along single, left-right axis is like trying to describe the geographic locations of major metropolitan areas as being only a matter of north or south. Sure, you might be right to say that New York is north of Mumbai, but if you were trying to give someone directions to either one of these places from their current location, would this really be sufficient information?
That said, the traditional view is that nazism and fascism are far-right ideologies; this view is adopted by most scholars and anyone who knows anything about political science or doesn't have some pre-existing political agenda.
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Vlaad
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posted January 11, 2011 01:18 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 01:22, 11 Jan 2011.
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Quote:
Most left-right classifications are pretty much meaningless in any case when it comes to real-world ideologies. Trying to define nazism or fascism or communism or whateverism along single, left-right axis is like trying to describe the geographic locations of major metropolitan areas as being only a matter of north or south. Sure, you might be right to say that New York is north of Mumbai, but if you were trying to give someone directions to either one of these places from their current location, would this really be sufficient information?
Well, there are various multi-axis charts, although none of them is perfect, of course. There's also the Horseshoe Theory, which states that far right and far left are closer to each other than to the center. Not sure if those are any good, but I'm afraid Nazism, fascism and communism are very much real-world ideologies. You're just lucky you haven't seen any of it.
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Elodin
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posted January 11, 2011 01:23 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:35, 11 Jan 2011.
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Of course "scholars" on the left love to lie and say Nazis were right wing. But Nazi=Natinoal Socialist Pary. Socialists are left wing.
Hitler was only following the progressive idea of the white race as being the superior race and other races as being inferior. Progressives since the 1880s had pushed for eugenics. Hitler gained the power to force eugenics on the population. He was a progressive. A leftist.
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Ultimately, 60,000 Americans were coercively sterilized — legally and extra-legally. Many never discovered the truth until decades later. Those who actively supported eugenics include America's most progressive figures: Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Holmes.
American eugenic crusades proliferated into a worldwide campaign, and in the 1920s came to the attention of Adolf Hitler. Under the Nazis, American eugenic principles were applied without restraint, careening out of control into the Reich's infamous genocide. During the pre-War years, American eugenicists openly supported Germany's program. The Rockefeller Foundation financed the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and the work of its central racial scientists. Once WWII began, Nazi eugenics turned from mass sterilization and euthanasia to genocidal murder. One of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute doctors in the program financed by the Rockefeller Foundation was Josef Mengele who continued his research in Auschwitz, making daily eugenic reports on twins. After the world recoiled from Nazi atrocities, the American eugenics movement — its institutions and leading scientists — renamed and regrouped under the banner of an enlightened science called human genetics.
Since eugenics is not the subject we are discussing, please google progressive and eugenics and you will see that Hitler was only practicing what the extreme left preached.
Anyways, I think it has been clearly estgablished that the shooter was not at all following any conservative agenda and indeed did not have conservative ideas. His ideas were left-wing.
The Congresswoman who was the target is a Jew. Marx was anti-semite as was Hitler as were the founders of the modern progresive movement.
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baklava
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posted January 11, 2011 01:36 AM |
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But Nazi=Natinoal Socialist Pary. Socialists are left wing.
The "National" bit doesn't imply anything at all, though.
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