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| Thread: How are all the games connected? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 31, 2011 04:04 AM |
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Well, at this point we can only speculate how it would have turned out.
This is unsure as it goes.
However this is how things went during that era. It might be coincidental, and it might not. That is one more thing we will never know.
1. - prior to AB expansion NWC was revered as great developer by their player base. Earning the trust of many (myself included).
2. - when forge was announced, fans forgot to trust NWC, even though they did no mistakes in the past to warrant it. This is the step where fanbase got split. At this point we should have trusted them as before, in my opinion at least.
3. - as a result, NWC plan and strategy goes back to drawing board, losing reputation and valuable time. According to some, it went downhill from here.
Rest is history.
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I would felt much better if fans let them create the forge. No matter the result, we would have someone to either continue worshiping, or to blame. Improvement over today's case of countless fan argues 
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 31, 2011 04:27 AM |
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As it never happened, I don't know if I'd have liked the forge or not.
I'd like to point out that when I, and probably many other younger players, played heroes, I had no idea that games such as might and magic even existed, only the heroes series were known to me.
I believe I saw it as a medieval setting, a kind of turn based red alert game and if my memory serves me well, I'd probably dislike the concept of "machinery from the future" as much as I disliked the later red alert games.
First some years later did I play might and magic 7 and completed it. At that time I didn't mind the parts with alien technology, actually I liked it quite a lot and thought it expanded the world in a way that seemed to create and endless amount of opportunities.
I was dissapointed when I played might and magic 8 and I was not going to travel the stars!
Which is also the reason I abbondoned might and magic 8 for several years before completing it.
Now, as mentioned earlier, I might had disliked the concept of "future machinery" in the heroes series, but that by far does not in any way mean that the developers could not pull it off in a way that I'd actually appreciate and realise I actually enjoyed!
I've seen many different concepts I at first really thought were bad ideas that made very good impressions on me and I've seen awesome concepts that did horribly, at least with me.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 31, 2011 06:46 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 07:29, 31 Jan 2011.
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The Forge might have been better received if H3 (and the previous games) had made the sci-fi elements a bit more visible from the beginning, rather than suddenly introducing, what, to many fans of the HoMM series - but not well up on the MM series - looked like a discordant element, advanced technology in an otherwise magic driven fantasy series.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 31, 2011 08:50 AM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 08:55, 31 Jan 2011.
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@Vicheron
I could go on and post the harpy artworks from many other sources and games, only to show you how differently each design is in detail, except for the H3 and AD&D 2e ones. Same goes for Basilisk. Just because these creatures existed in mythology, it doesn't mean that 3DO should copy them just as they see them in TSR's manuals.
Same goes for the architecture of the lizardmen. So having both in Warhammer and H3, bluescaled finned lizardmen who live in Aztecan style pyramids, wasn't an intentional copy? Is that what you're saying.
And I'll be damned if TSR based the Gnolls on Cynocephali, but anyway, it's no excuse, since 3DO not only copied the design, but also called them Gnolls.
As for the Orcs, don't start me there. Tolkien's orcs weren't pig-faced. They were not even green. First TSR comes up with the pig-faced Orcs, then 3DO copies that design. Then TSR reboots their 'worlds' with the new edition, and creates green Orcs. And 3DO without any kind of rebooting or reason, copy their new design and paint their Orcs green too. I say it's a copy.
In the end of it all, 3DO copied more creatures from D&D (and Warhammer) than Nival did from Warhammer. So don't blame Nival for a trend started by 3DO.
Now let me give you one very good example of what I think of NWC's and Ubisoft's stories. NWC's is like watching a movie that's been superbly directed and acted but the whole plot don't make sense. Ubisoft's on the other hand, is just one of the same, but the story is simple and coherent.
Now wether how many or few different characters with the same were there and how many worlds have been changed, destroyed or otherwise, it doesn't matter. What matters is that to me and probably many others, 3DO gave us the impression that they did not know what they were doing.
@Cepheus
You're right but by popular demand, it was rejected. Many of us, me included, who started with H3, would not have been here now if the Forge would made it. Having some sort of Steampunk technology would be nice, but hi-tech energy weapons would drive a lot of us away.
Sure the story would turn out to be more well written than it was with the Conflux. But even so, it was the concept that was being hated on, not the story.
MatII is right. No matter how a few of you were very familiar with M&M universe, having played the other games too before the HoMM series; the most of us were not, and when all of a sudden we saw a Hi-Tech faction threatening to destroy our fantasy setting, we did not want it. If it had been made clear from the beginning, perhaps it would have been more acceptable. Such as League of Legends for example that I've been favoring lately, where they do blend sci-fi with fantasy but I don't reject it because this is how it was from the first day of its existence.
So I admit I am wrong on saying that Sci-Fi doesn't mix with Fantasy. What I wanted to say was this all along. You can't force such a violent change in a concept we've familiarized ourselves with and expect us not to reject it.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 31, 2011 09:41 AM |
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I think NWC's major mistake was to take the risk of creating a "steampunk" faction without checking how the community would welcome it. Instead they spent monthes working on developping the Forge, its storyline, campaigns and heroes and when the game was almost ready to be shipped, they officially announced the Forge. In the end, they wasted monthes of work by taking an insane risk and this could (or even should) have been avoided.
Personally, I hated the Forge. I'm not strongly against steampunk, but this was just too extreme. The whole faction and units were totally out of place in the universe that was set in the Heroes saga. But, to be fair, I hated the blasters and spacesuits in Might and Magic RPGs as well, they always wasted the whole game for me.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 31, 2011 09:54 AM |
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Quote:
I think NWC's major mistake was to take the risk of creating a "steampunk" faction without checking how the community would welcome it. Instead they spent monthes working on developping the Forge, its storyline, campaigns and heroes and when the game was almost ready to be shipped, they officially announced the Forge. In the end, they wasted monthes of work by taking an insane risk and this could (or even should) have been avoided.
Personally, I hated the Forge. I'm not strongly against steampunk, but this was just too extreme. The whole faction and units were totally out of place in the universe that was set in the Heroes saga. But, to be fair, I hated the blasters and spacesuits in Might and Magic RPGs as well, they always wasted the whole game for me.
No, you're mistaking steampunk for futuristic science fiction. The Forge was aiming for the latter. Steampunk would have been very nice to have, actually. Flying ships and zeppelins in Warcraft 3 is steampunk, for example. The various units from Warhammer 40k armed with laser rifles and power armors, is more or less the kind of sci-fi that they were aiming for with the Forge. That's more unfitting than steampunk in a fantasy setting.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 31, 2011 10:10 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:13, 31 Jan 2011.
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And to make a long story short and continue from the last post: ...And so the story of the M&M and HoMM saga was so complex that Ubisoft who had only a very general idea what HoMM is and no idea what Might & Magic is decided not to spend time on research and to start from a scratch.
That's better. The FUBAR thing is mostly in the heads of those who haven't played the games.  There are discrepancies, but far fewer than you think.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 31, 2011 10:18 AM |
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Quote:
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And to make a long story short and continue from the last post: ...And so the story of the M&M and HoMM saga was so complex that Ubisoft who had only a very general idea what HoMM is and no idea what Might & Magic is decided not to spend time on research and to start from a scratch.
That's better. The FUBAR thing is mostly in the head of those who haven't played the games. There are discrepancies, but far fewer than you think.
I know all that but still call it FUBAR. For a newcomer, the series loose their charm immediately when he just can't connect to their short lived worlds and stories. They feel lost and since its hard to get into it then they don't care either. And probably this is what Ubisoft had taken into consideration and decided to create a new world from scratch. A research on the storyline on 15 or so games is very easy for a company such as Ubisoft to make. It's not ran by idiots after all. It's not out of laziness that they did not make it, it's because they thought that the previous saga would not sell anymore. Besides, you do know that Ubisoft is all about money. If they had thought that continuing the previous stories would give them more profits, they would have gone for it.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 31, 2011 10:33 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:37, 31 Jan 2011.
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Short-lived? Won't sell? What the...
The planet of Enroth includes: Heroes II and Heroes III (don't know about Heroes I, it has next to no storyline) + Might & Magic VI - VIII.
The planet of Axeoth includes: Heroes IV and Might & Magic IX. Here's when 3DO gave up the ghost and when most of the discrepancies were created.
The so-called "old world" had an enormous fanbase, far grater than the generic abomination Ashan has to date. A refined continuation of the story on Axeoth or basically anywhere within the old Web of the Worlds would have sold just as well as the new thing, if not better. If they competently return to the "old universe", I'm 99,99% certain that the sales will increase significantly - many people want it back and next to nobody cares about Ashan.
As for the Forge - my only complaint about it is that it was supposed to have low-tech armies according to the screenshots. The JVC M&M universe was about far more advanced technology and the pieces produced in the Heavenly Forge were supposed to be not so rough and blatantly technological. As obviously you haven't played the M&M games, you don't know that some of the high-tech stuff looked exactly like medieval weapons. Some of the artefacts in Heroes II and Heroes III are very likely to be high-tech stuff as well. But that's not the entire point - they could have made a technological faction which wouldn't have scared so many people if they just followed the M&M lore completely and made this technology more refined. Blasters are unavoidable though.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 31, 2011 11:07 AM |
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As obviously you haven't played the M&M games, you don't know that some of the high-tech stuff looked exactly like medieval weapons. Some of the artefacts in Heroes II and Heroes III are very likely to be high-tech stuff as well. But that's not the entire point - they could have made a technological faction which wouldn't have scared so many people if they just followed the M&M lore completely and made this technology more refined. Blasters are unavoidable though.
Some people aren't interested in RPGs you know, and others don't have the money to spend on a dozen games from one series in the hope of it making a jot of sense.
Also, an expansion pack is not the place to introduce a dissonant note in a beautiful, if slightly repetetive harmony. If you want dissonace you write it in at the start.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted January 31, 2011 11:15 AM |
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Imho, forge could have worked great if it wasn't Unit X from Faction Y + Guns or other techo crap.
Tier1: Goblin + Laser Gun
Tier2: Zombie + Chainsaw
Tier3: Human + Flamethrower
Tier4: Ogre + Rocket Launcher
Tier5: Minotaur + Jetpack
Tier6: Naga + Tank treads
The Tier 7 unit, as a purely mechanical and brand new, built from sctratch model was the only one that didn't reek of lazy design and horrible style clash.
I think, if the mechanical style was more clean and fresh, say sleek, MAC style design, to make it seem truly otherworldy, to the point where to the natives it might even look like magic or enchanted steel, even though the player is very much aware of it's actual nature, that would help.
As well as a more uniform species line-up, not talking HoMM6 Fortress, but more HoMM3 Stronghold sense of uniformity.
Quick stab at how I think Forge might have worked better.
Tier1: Kobold Infantry, Kobold Trooper.
Small, blue skinned goblinish looking unit with clean uniform and gun.
Tier2: Assault Warrior, Assault Soldier.
Genetically enhanced human, armed with stunrod and combat knife, similar uniform to the Kobold.
Tier3: Pyro Squad, Incinirator Squad.
Two Kobolds handeling large fuel tank and flame thrower respectively.
Tier4: Stinger, Buiser.
Ogre sized humanoid, full body suit, Bazooka and hand gun.
Tier5: Jump Trooper, Elite.
Sleek, long limbed blue skinned humanoid, slightly alien look, jetpack and armed with sophisticated looking fist weapons, possibly close range dart injecting fists.
Tier6: Enforcer, Overseer.
Humanoid robot on tank treads, attacks with lighting charged whip like coils.
Tier7: Juggernaut, Dreadnaut.
As they intended, but with matching design.
Bear in mind, I never played the Might and Magic games other then Heroes of Might and Magic.
So I don't knowhow well this would mesh with actual established Forge lore, but what I've seen of this rogue guardian bad guy, they seem to have advanded beyond the "industrial" technological style.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 31, 2011 11:17 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:23, 31 Jan 2011.
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It is dissonance only for the people who don't like it, but this boils down to personal tastes. And you can learn the stories of the series indirectly if you want, it is not necessary to have a direct interaction with something that interests you in the world of Internet. So in the end you are either not interested enough or you are too interested to be content with the info supplied by external sources - in which case you find the games and play them.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 31, 2011 11:30 AM |
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The so-called "old world" had an enormous fanbase, far grater than the generic abomination Ashan has to date. A refined continuation of the story on Axeoth or basically anywhere within the old Web of the Worlds would have sold just as well as the new thing, if not better. If they competently return to the "old universe", I'm 99,99% certain that the sales will increase significantly - many people want it back and next to nobody cares about Ashan.
Keep on dreaming, don't let me wake you up.
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As obviously you haven't played the M&M games
Yeah, I haven't played M&M games, never said I did. And most of the fans right now are like me in this. I'm not in the mood to go through forgotten and outdated RPG's to learn about worlds that exist no more.
Ubisoft did what's best for the series by starting a new world. The fact that the new story was poorly written, is another matter. But the previous story could not and should not be continued.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 31, 2011 11:41 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:44, 31 Jan 2011.
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Keep on dreaming, don't let me wake you up.
My dream world is then a good reflection of the reality where you real world is a wishful dream. Yeah, don't wake me up please.
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Ubisoft did what's best for the series by starting a new world. The fact that the new story was poorly written, is another matter. But the previous story could not and should not be continued.
Oh yes, this is exactly the same as saying that the story of some movie sucks so hard that you can't stand it, but this is irrelevant. What is relevant then, the good intentions? Kind regards, Chris Rea.
The "could and should not" part is nothing but your personal opinion, I hope you realize that quite too many people think otherwise.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 31, 2011 11:44 AM |
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It is dissonance only for the people who don't like it, but this boils down to personal tastes.
And the outcry suggested that the personal taste of a lot of the fans oh HoMM3 was against the Forge
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And you can learn the stories of the series indirectly if you want, it is not necessary to have a direct interaction with something that interests you in the world of Internet. So in the end you are either not interested enough or you are too interested to be content with the info supplied by external sources - in which case you find the games and play them.
And the people who aren't really that interested in the huge amounts of lore make up a good proportion of the fans, which angers some hard-timers, but how much can they do?
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Short-lived? Won't sell? What the...
The planet of Enroth includes: Heroes II and Heroes III (don't know about Heroes I, it has next to no storyline) + Might & Magic VI - VIII.
Morglin is father of Archibald and Roland, you go figure which world it's on.
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The planet of Axeoth includes: Heroes IV and Might & Magic IX. Here's when 3DO gave up the ghost and when most of the discrepancies were created.
Yes, Axeoth left a bitter taste, which would probably have hurt sales a bit, but then the question comes, if you're going to prune an old storyline, how far back do you prune, just H4, or Sword of Frost, or, hells, do you take it right back to H3, and reshape it from there?
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The so-called "old world" had an enormous fanbase, far grater than the generic abomination Ashan has to date.
Um, H3 was pretty generic as well, I mean you get medieval humans, tree-hugging elves, life-hating undead, barbaric orcs, hellish chaotic demons, uppity arcane wizards, cthonic horrors, etc. How many of those postdate WW2?
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A refined continuation of the story on Axeoth or basically anywhere within the old Web of the Worlds would have sold just as well as the new thing, if not better. If they competently return to the "old universe", I'm 99,99% certain that the sales will increase significantly - many people want it back and next to nobody cares about Ashan.
Nobody much cares for Axeoth either, which brings up the pruning question how far back do you go?
You also forget a couple of perfectly legitimate reason for the big reboot:
1. Putting their own touches on the series.
2. Rebooting a haemorrhaged series with a new beginning.
Of, course, they failed dismally in coming up with a decent, unique mythos, but do you really think they could have done any better with the old series?
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted January 31, 2011 11:55 AM |
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Pardon me for raining on the parade, but aren't we basically rebooting a discussion from a few years ago?
A discussion that didn't have any constructive benefits back then, and probably won't this time around either?
The OP's question has been awnsered, maybe we can just let this thread die, it's borderline flamewar now.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 31, 2011 12:04 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 12:11, 31 Jan 2011.
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And the outcry suggested that the personal taste of a lot of the fans oh HoMM3 was against the Forge
You can find just as many, if not even more, who like the idea. What's the point in measuring whose "Forge" is bigger here? Like I said, the Forge concept could have been refined but it wasn't, end of story.
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And the people who aren't really that interested in the huge amounts of lore make up a good proportion of the fans, which angers some hard-timers, but how much can they do?
Those who are not interested in the lore do not care if the stage is Ashan or Axeoth or whatever.
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Morglin is father of Archibald and Roland, you go figure which world it's on.
True, but the game itself doesn't tell you that or at least I don't remember anything like it. Still it should be Enroth.
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Yes, Axeoth left a bitter taste, which would probably have hurt sales a bit, but then the question comes, if you're going to prune an old storyline, how far back do you prune, just H4, or Sword of Frost, or, hells, do you take it right back to H3, and reshape it from there?
When I say the "old universe", I mean the "old universe". They can stage the game on XEEN if they want - or on a totally new world - what's important is the background.
Moreover, the story of Axeoth wasn't bad at all, I think you are mixing lore and gameplay. The latter is where Heroes IV failed. Axeoth has nothing or very little to do with it.
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Um, H3 was pretty generic as well, I mean you get medieval humans, tree-hugging elves, life-hating undead, barbaric orcs, hellish chaotic demons, uppity arcane wizards, cthonic horrors, etc.
Yes, and they are the remnants of a space colonization that pre-dates an interstellar war (humans, elves, etc.) and high-tech aliens (the demons)... The list goes on. Below the generic surface there is much less generic background, that's what I'm talking about all the time.
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You also forget a couple of perfectly legitimate reason for the big reboot:
1. Putting their own touches on the series.
2. Rebooting a haemorrhaged series with a new beginning.
Of, course, they failed dismally in coming up with a decent, unique mythos, but do you really think they could have done any better with the old series?
Like I said, they failed to make a good impression with this move. Nobody cares about the intentions, but about the results. And the results are worse than what we had before.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted January 31, 2011 12:20 PM |
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Pardon me for raining on the parade, but aren't we basically rebooting a discussion from a few years ago?
A discussion that didn't have any constructive benefits back then, and probably won't this time around either?
The OP's question has been awnsered, maybe we can just let this thread die, it's borderline flamewar now.
It is pointless but still interesting to go through. As I've been a member of HC since only recently, never had the chance to discuss them.
It's not meant to be a flamewar either, unless every time someone disagrees with another, it is considered flaming.
Anyway, I did say all I wanted to say. From there on, I'll be just repeating so I kindly withdraw with only summarizing everything into one sentence: Ubisoft knows that new fans in their majority don't care about old games.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 31, 2011 12:34 PM |
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Those who are not interested in the lore do not care if the stage is Ashan or Axeoth or whatever.
They will however raise a ruckus if they see something they don't like, and the Forge was sufficiently disliked to be dropped.
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True, but the game itself doesn't tell you that or at least I don't remember anything like it. Still it should be Enroth.
Well you don't think 'Ironfist. was an unusually common name do you?
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Moreover, the story of Axeoth wasn't bad at all, I think you are mixing lore and gameplay. The latter is where Heroes IV failed. Axeoth has nothing or very little to do with it.
Following on from H4 would have meant dealing with Infernopolis, which is by no standards a popular town.
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Yes, and they are the remnants of a space colonization that pre-dates an interstellar war (humans, elves, etc.) and high-tech aliens (the demons)... The list goes on. Below the generic surface there is much less generic background, that's what I'm talking about all the time.
Casual gamers (the majority of your audience) don't care much for digging around for lore, they play the game as a way to escape reality, to relax. If you want lore to be an important part of your game you write a manual of lore and include it in the box, you don't expect people to own a half-dozen titles just so the story in your latest title makes sense.
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Like I said, they failed to make a good impression with this move. Nobody cares about the intentions, but about the results. And the results are worse than what we had before.
And you'd have crucified them if they'd pulled this level of failure on the old universe, so they couldn't have won with the amount of work they put in, regardless of the universe they decided to use as the foundation.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 31, 2011 01:06 PM |
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They will however raise a ruckus if they see something they don't like, and the Forge was sufficiently disliked to be dropped.
The notorious Forge aside, the rest of the sci-fi elements that were hidden inside the Heroes games did not bother them, they just didn't know that they exist. We are not talking about the Forge here but about the entire game world.
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Well you don't think 'Ironfist. was an unusually common name do you?
Yes, unusually common in the M&M games that come before the introduction of Enroth as well, if I recall correctly.
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Following on from H4 would have meant dealing with Infernopolis, which is by no standards a popular town.
That's a problem? The Kreegans already had one rebellion against the undead in Heroes IV and they always follow their own agenda anyway. Separating these factions would've been the simplest task of all.
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Casual gamers (the majority of your audience) don't care much for digging around for lore, they play the game as a way to escape reality, to relax. If you want lore to be an important part of your game you write a manual of lore and include it in the box, you don't expect people to own a half-dozen titles just so the story in your latest title makes sense.
Like I said, you can find substitutes for these manuals on-line if you want.
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And you'd have crucified them if they'd pulled this level of failure on the old universe, so they couldn't have won with the amount of work they put in, regardless of the universe they decided to use as the foundation.
You mean I like the current situation more than, say, a potential failed attempt to continue the old story? No damn it - the root of the failure of Ashan's story is the same as the root of Ubisoft's unwillingness to continue the old story - they just put next to no work in the development of this element. Meaning that if they did care, Ashan would have been a nice world and I wouldn't miss the old one so much; or, on the other hand, they could have continued the old storyline well if they really wanted.
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