|
| Thread: Perceptions |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
posted February 28, 2011 11:22 AM |
|
Edited by Azagal at 11:25, 28 Feb 2011.
|
I haven't gotten the chance to read all the replies until now but it's an interesting subject even if I find it a bit hard to "discuss" since by nature it's a highly subjective issue. But some people make some interesting observations here.
Just one quick thing:
Quote:
They say don't judge a book by its cover but I consider it equally wrong not to. No doubt what we show on the outside is but the tip of the iceberg but it also tells a lot about our person. The signs are there, it is up to the observer to pick them up.
While you're not wrong in theory I believe you are in practice. The facade people put up does indeed say a lot about them but it requires you to know that what they're putting up is a mask for you to draw the right conclusion about the person. True, a person that is good at reading people might find "tells" or even see through the act entirely but that's one thing I would be very careful about... it's very easy overestimate ones abilities which will only lead you to failure and make you see things you want to see. Reading people is by no means an exact science and quite the delicate matter being too confident will not help in the slightest.
It's by no means equally wrong not to judge a book by its cover. Some people really are what they seem to be there're no disguises no masks but the point is you will never know until you've been able to observe a person. Taking things at face value might end up biasing your future observation of the person and thusly prevent you from actually observing their behaviour objectively (spelling lol?). Face value is ok for a first impression it shows you a piece in the puzzle that is the person, whether that piece ends up being but one of many or the actual puzzle depends on the person and how good he/she is at manipulating the way you perceive him/her.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted February 28, 2011 12:33 PM |
|
|
Just breaking the book cover trend everyone seems to follow these days  Often enough people miss the obvious that is in front of their eyes. Obviously I mean that as in keep an eye out for said person being x than brand him/her as x.
People think too much - Why someone would do that, why he didn't, why it cannot mean what you'd think, what he said, how he said it.. Sometimes all that is but a diversion to what they really should pay attention to. It's the little things that betray our intentions.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted February 28, 2011 12:50 PM |
|
|
Well sometimes trends are trends because they've been proven right again and again over time. I'm all for going against popular beliefs but I'm not one to be unreasonable simply for unconventionalities sake.
And no people don't think too much, they don't think nearly enough! "It's the little things that betray our intentions" a little melodramatic don't you think ? It's true yes they do but depending on who you're interacting with spotting those "little things" require a whole lot of observation and thinking.
Quote:
Sometimes all that is but a diversion to what they really should pay attention to.
Apart from sounding all wise and mystical I have no idea what that means. That when obsessing over trivia you lose touch with what's really important? I'll get more into it later when I can think a bit clearer but I don't see how carefully observing a person while talking to him/her is "thinking too much". Of course it's moronic to go into every conversation with the idea that every word means something and that you have to found a way through the maze of lies yoou just need to learn to differentiate.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted February 28, 2011 01:00 PM |
|
|
Well my best friend is a girl. I don't know if you've had any discussions on the way they think but man sometimes my mind is blown away  Naturally I have known guys who do that too but you'd be surprised how much thought goes into things we consider ENTIRELY pointless.
Like a wise man said if you want to understand a woman just look at her, don't listen to what she says ^^
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 28, 2011 02:46 PM |
|
|
it might be better to not think too much if you want to understand someone. it's as if you are discussing with a 2nd person at the same time.
I think, the least you think, the more you are yourself, unless maybe you got so used to lie that you do it spontaneously 
I indeed suppose most people use a mask (even with close relatives, or their wife/husband) but I don't know if many people are conscious about that, it looks like most people don't notice it.
or maybe they know it, but just prefer lying to themselves.
we prefer conforming ourselves and act the way people expect us to. everyone wears the mask other people expect him to wear, and if we don't see it, it might be because that revelation may cause lots of trouble.
people are afraid that we discover that they aren't what they show, but it might not be the biggest problem, people are also afraid to discover that they aren't what they thought (I mean that seems silly, they think that as soon as they remove their mask of mr Jekyll, they will turn into mr Hyde, or what?)
and why do people put masks? maybe because people seek security, and security implies total control on your environment, which means knowing everything about it. but how do you know everything about someone? I mean, it's impossible, our possibilities are infinite, you could be a "different" person every day if you wanted. I guess that's the reason why we label ourselves, we put ourselves in lockers, because we can't stand all that unpredictability.
of course, you can see the funniest part of this, it just doesn't work, the fact that people have a hell of a lots of problems proves it.
there are many people who say something silly which is directly linked to what I said "don't disturb other people"
well, actually that doesn't sound like a bad advice at first, but usually, it just means "don't be yourself, conform yourself"
or it might as well mean "never do anything because you can never please everyone"
|
|
Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 10:01 AM |
|
Edited by Jabanoss at 10:06, 01 Mar 2011.
|
My own perception is a bit clouded. I have always consider myself an observant of others, as I have never been the social type. I have always been able too see thing from multiple perspectives, both when it comes to philosophies and opinions. However lately I have became somewhat paranoid. I still retain the ability to "see clearly" but it feels like I'm only pay attention to all negative things.
Let me give an example, if I for instance write a reply in one of the many threads here I will imagine that the response will be the worst possible. I will spend time on thinking on what ways people can find bad and offensive messages from my words to turn against me. Paranoid and insecure much?
So I guess my point is pretty much that since people have such varied and different perception, I fear that they will interpret my words and action in the most negative way possible. I am person that Elvin would say "thinks too much".
Sorry for taking this to such a "personal level".
@Dagoth
About acting differently amongst different people, well in my opinion it's only natural, I do it all the time.
Please ask me anything about my replies so that I can explain more so we can avoid confusions and misunderstandings.
(this goes for ALL my posts...)
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 10:54 AM |
bonus applied by Mytical on 02 Mar 2011. |
|
What is the first thing you notice about a person when you see them? Boobs! aka, is it a he or a she. Then you will change your acting accordingly and expect the person to act accordingly. A man sees a man you talk about sports, cars, bikes, fishing, women, business and all your usual stuff. Woman sees a woman you talk about clothes, hair, men, women, jewelry and all your usual stuff.
Now imagine a woman walking to a woman and the first thing the other one starts with is asking has she had any good fishing catches since last time seeing her. Or about how she bought a new car which handles like a dream on the track.
Now imagine a man walking to another man and the first thing the other one starts with is how good he looks in his suit. Or starts gossiping about how Jack was seen wearing a pair of mismatching socks one day.
Now the first thing coming to mind? What the hell is wrong with him/her? Is s/he gay?
Next thing you notice about a person? Probably his/her looks, does s/he care about his/her outer appearance. If you see a man looking like a hobo on the street, you expect him to be a hobo. Now this man offers you a job in his multimillion dollar company, how do you react? You laugh your ass off. Then he calls his driver to pick him up and drives away in his limousine and you are left standing on the street cursing for losing the chance of your life becasue you assumed he was a hobo.
Quote:
Well my best friend is a girl. I don't know if you've had any discussions on the way they think but man sometimes my mind is blown away Naturally I have known guys who do that too but you'd be surprised how much thought goes into things we consider ENTIRELY pointless.
Like a wise man said if you want to understand a woman just look at her, don't listen to what she says ^^
I disagree. As the lyrics say:
"From the minute that I met here she was different than the rest
But I didn't hear her talking I was staring at her chest
And I wish I would have listened 'cause I think I might have seen the signs
Now it's been a couple months and I can't take another word
She's been pushing every button she's been working every nerve"
Of course, I'm an upholder of the "Don't hear, don't answer"-theory, so maybe I'm inherently flawed.
Now, more seriously. It's got nothing to do with being woman or man. It's a cultural thing. If your average guy had grown up in a group with only girls, he'd pay attention to those same pointless things. Now, throw a finn into a group of spanish people and you'll notice the spanish people laughing and wondering why on earth is this finnish person worrying about pointless things, like being on time in a meeting or working when it's midday.
Same thing goes for women and men, why don't most men worry if the colour of their socks is right for the tie? Why do most women worry about their husband's socks' colour in relation to their tie when going to a company party? Because in the men's culture, the colour of your socks in relation to your tie has absolutely no meaning at all but in the woman's culture it does. The woman wants to show around her husband and brag about him, now if her husband has nonmatching colours on his tie and socks, that will drop his value as a bragging subject and in relation, her rank will drop too because women's rank is in direct relation to their husbands at such parties.
So why some men worry about the colour of their socks and tie at such parties while most don't? Either they're mamma's boys or otherwise involved in the women's subculture, like say, a good friend whom they've grown up with or they're gay. Most likely, it's because their wife told them to wear matching colours and he remembers the nagging.
Little off topic but be it man or woman, most pointlessly stress over things just for the sake of stressing because they don't know what it is to be without it.
Why do you stress if it rains tomorrow? It's not like you can do anything about it. If you're worried about getting wet, just bring that raincoat, end of worries.
Why do you stress about your kid's football game? It's not like you are playing. Tie his shoes well and let him do the rest, end of worries.
Why do you stress about your exam results after you've returned your exam? It's out of your hands now. Nothing you can do anymore, time to relax, take it easy, go party.
Too much text already, I might go into actual perceptions in my next post.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 11:06 AM |
bonus applied by Mytical on 01 Mar 2011. |
|
Quote:
Now imagine a woman walking to a woman and the first thing the other one starts with is asking has she had any good fishing catches since last time seeing her. Or about how she bought a new car which handles like a dream on the track.
Now imagine a man walking to another man and the first thing the other one starts with is how good he looks in his suit. Or starts gossiping about how Jack was seen wearing a pair of mismatching socks one day.
Now the first thing coming to mind? What the hell is wrong with him/her? Is s/he gay?
That's not true at all. It's not weird for guys to not care about fishing or sports, and it's not weird for women to care about cars or bikes (or women). It's these arbitrary stereotypes - these unnecessary gender roles - that keep getting reinforced by this sort of attitude. My male friends and my female friends all talk about the same things.
There's no reason for it to be considered weird for a woman to enjoy activities stereotypically considered to be masculine, and the same is true for men. What's wrong with a woman who enjoys sci-fi, technology, and computer games? Those are stereotypically associated with males. What's wrong with a guy trying to look fashionable? Personally, it's not my thing, but if someone wants to do it, they should be able to go ahead and do it without being considered any stranger than a woman doing the same thing.
So, what's the first thing that comes to mind? "Okay." And that's all that comes to mind.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 11:22 AM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 11:28, 01 Mar 2011.
|
I agree with Mvass. Labels are obsolete, and probably were never really relevant. Also, how did I miss this very great thread?
____________
Message received.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 02:10 PM |
|
|
|
that's still the favourite weapons of politicians (A bunch of pretentious old men playing at running the world) their strategy of communication is always based on labels. it is a great way to alienate some groups
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 03:47 PM |
|
|
I see no problem in labelling people, and I'm not certain if labelling was joonas point at all. I see a problem in using force upon people, no matter the excuse. I suppose the labelling is a very often used excuse.
Of course there are some social norms, ways of behaviour that we've learn while growing up. If I am going to communicate with someone, it'll depend greatly of how I percieve them.
Joonas is right. Is it a man, or is it a woman? I'll certainly behave differently. It's not something I do on purpose, but emotions within me, my guess, an enforced response through repitition, means that I'll be doing some things different.
If a man comes over to me and start talking to me, like the two women I can hear are talking to eachother, I'd be repelled by him. Getting the thuoght that he maybe were comming on to me.
I have tried to be madly in love with a girl and keep it to myself for years. Then when I finally spoke with her, everything she said, I did my very best to answer the best possible way, so she'd like me. In stead she was repulsed. Every time we talked, I could not remember anything we had talked about before. To me, she was the same girl from years back that I had fallen in love with for the first time, knowing nothing about. Everything disturbing this picture the slightest way would be cut off from my perception of her.
|
|
bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 05:08 PM |
|
|
Labeling is a useful, inherent function of the human mind. It's how we distinguish threats preemptively and avoid them. We label poisonous plants, insects, animals, and... poisonous people, so that we know to avoid them, or we just get a gauge of what they're like so we know how to deal with them. How do we do this? We put people into categories - we stereotype - and stereotyping continues to be wonderfully useful in our modern age. If anything, it has become more useful than ever. It helps us navigate through our personal and business lives. Construction workers are physically fit and have vulnerable egos. Programmers are intelligent and uncharismatic. Accountants are soulless automatons. Lawyers are spawns from the depths of Sheogh. Writers get dragged through life by their emotions. Politicians are powergamers. Social workers are empathetic and stupid. Etc.
Or we can get more general.
Women are workhorses obsessed with their appearance. Men are prideful and bottle up their emotions. Asian people are smart. White people are kind of smart. Black people are stupid.
The problem isn't with the labellings - a world without labeling would be more dangerous, more cumbersome, and far more chaotic. The entire business & marketing world survives on labels. Everything we encounter gets a mental label slapped on it whether or not we care to admit it. The problem is with how you label and how you assess those labels. Are black people and other "low-end" minorities stupid just because they're inherently stupid, or because of a set of circumstances? When you dig deeper, you see that it is scientifically probable that Native Americans and Aborigines are on average more intelligent than Eurasians and Africans; most of us exist today because our ancestors just so happened to have a high resistance to all the ****ed up disease they were surrounded by.
Do you treat your labels as a tool or as a law? Are you using the world to form your own conceptions or are you using your conceptions to form your own world? All labeling should be taken with a grain of salt, be based on merit, and be quick to surrender itself. When you stray from this, labeling converts to its evil cousin: prejudice.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 05:54 PM |
|
|
Exhibit A:
Different insurance rates for women, men banned by EU March 1st, 2011
'The Belgian consumer group Test-Achats, which brought the case, said the decision is a "historic ruling."
"The equal treatment of men and women must be absolute," the group said in a statement.
Even if women are considered safer drivers, the question remains whether a man should be punished by paying more despite taking special care to drive safely. Test-Achats says there are other ways insurance companies can make a distinction, for example, by taking the accident history of a driver more into account. '
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 06:50 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Lawyers are spawns from the depths of Sheogh.
They come from the law schools and universities actually
And even if this is a stereotype, what's the problem? Who cares? I do not. If I became a lawyer one day people are going to not like me - big deal And actually it's a stereotype that most people think that lawyers are spawns from the depths of Sheogh. No one really hates them. Just tiny part of all.
If someone think that black people are stupid, do black people care? No. Do the people that think them as stupid to something bad then? No.
Why we care?
Whatever someone calls you, whatever they think you are, if you are not it doesn't matter.
You don't know it, but here the "n" word is the normal way to speak about black people. And it's the most common way. But we do not mean any harm, it's just the normal word for black people. Do we care - no. Do black people care - looks like no.
____________
|
|
bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 07:18 PM |
|
|
It can and often does matter, because if they think differently of you, they will treat you differently. And if the treatment becomes disadvantageous enough for a group of people, the negative stereotypes will become more and more accurate. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
evinin
Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 07:46 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You don't know it, but here the "n" word is the normal way to speak about black people. And it's the most common way. But we do not mean any harm, it's just the normal word for black people. Do we care - no. Do black people care - looks like no.
Calling people with black skin black is the same as calling them "the "n" word". It comes from the Latin word "niger" which means "black". There's nothing wrong in looking different or having a different skin color. I see nothing offensive in white and black people as long as "white" isn't used as something supreme which is really wrong.
____________
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 08:33 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 20:34, 01 Mar 2011.
|
|
the problem with labelling is : imagine you labelled someone as stupid, and he actually says something clever. you won't even listen to him, you will just label everything he says as stupid without even thinking about it and then reject it all.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 09:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If someone think that black people are stupid, do black people care? No.
Actually, yes, they do. Because that is going to affect how they're treated - for example, if they're applying for a job.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 10:20 PM |
|
Edited by Lexxan at 22:21, 01 Mar 2011.
|
I hate admitting it, mainly because I prefer to *know* people sufficiently on a personal level before I make any major judgements, but there's a reason why things like "labels" and "stereotypes" and "prejudices" exist. They are built on the general truths surrounding the group they label.
Of course Generalizations like that have their flaws, mainly because their are shallow devices to spare ourselves the toil of profound ponder... but they wouldn't be used so liberally (or exist altogether) if they didn't have a solid base of verity to stand on. Same with most "perceptions" or "first impressions" people have. They are of the same mould.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
|
|
posted March 01, 2011 11:24 PM |
|
Edited by VokialBG at 23:30, 01 Mar 2011.
|
Quote:
Quote:
If someone think that black people are stupid, do black people care? No.
Actually, yes, they do. Because that is going to affect how they're treated - for example, if they're applying for a job.
They do not need to care, same does to you. Why?
1) If someone beliåve in that stereotype, he can be very, very hard changed. Beliåve in it is basically stupid, since you can't say that someone is stupid by reason of his skin colour or race. Even if the right thing is to judge the man on his individual quality, the employer who beliåve in that stereotype will never change.
2) Black people can not change the guys mind if he do beliåve in that stereotype very hard. In place where you can find a job very hard, he may find a new worker in minutes. Rejecting you for a reason of being black, is not a big deal for his business. So he simply doesn't carry, means the black guy can't change it, and he need not to care but find another employer. Also the employer will never tell him why he reject him.
3) Whatever they told you, the state or law or something can't help you, since it's all in the private sphere, the state can't make the employer to hire the black man, it can not even punish him somehow, since he can always point another reason for not hiring black people. Like individual quality. International law may help only is a state did this, not a private person.
4) Personally to you - you don't need to care since:
4.1) You can not change anything. The best you can do is not falling into the stereotype yourself.
4.2) The exact stereotype doesn't harm you.
4.3) There are much more problems, much more important and stressful for you to care for.
4.4) Only a men with not enough stress and lot of time can really care about that.
4.5) You do get no profit for fighting the mentioned stereotype. You may only get someone against you (who is beliåving in that stereotype), and how may be useful to you in the future. You may simply keep being neutral and not falling in stereotypes like this one. And thats the best you can do. It's simply the same as not to care.
____________
|
| |
|
|
