|
| Thread: Story tone, serious or not? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
posted April 18, 2011 02:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I'm hoping they'll give us some non-human (and preferably non-elven) main characters, I'd like to really crawl into the skin of something a bit more exotic for once.
Who knows 
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 03:25 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I'm hoping they'll give us some non-human (and preferably non-elven) main characters, I'd like to really crawl into the skin of something a bit more exotic for once.
Agreed. Something I highly disliked in every HoMM is that the story revolved around humans, human kingdoms or more specifically around the Haven (H3, H5)
|
|
yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 03:27 PM |
|
|
I still dream of revelation that Ashan is just another playground in Spinward Rim (or anywhere else in the galaxy  ). A special one since dragon stuff and all that, but still just another playground.
I found H5 story relaxing and ok. Full of cliches and predictable characters, yet i still found it ok. It worked for me as a warmup for learning the creatures of the game in a careless manner.
In my opinion Heroes series never had real good story. Exception being 6 Vanilla H4 campaigns which were great, even though they were written by a guy that couldn't spell Solmyr correctly
I am very interested in how h6 story will turn out. If memory serves there is 5 writers, each writing one faction's campaign. So i assume it will bring several different styles that can only help enriching the universe. And Ashan really needs that at this point if it ever hopes of becoming a setting which it's players actually care about.
____________
|
|
Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 03:31 PM |
|
Edited by Cepheus at 15:32, 18 Apr 2011.
|
I hate the terms "darker and grittier" when applied to a 25-year-old franchise. Every time I think of it I envision some executive saying "hey, let's rip the fun and light-heartedness out of the series and double the angst". In fact darker and grittier were the exact words used by the Ubisoft producers to describe Heroes V in comparison to H4, yet stuff like Gauldoth's campaign and even Armageddon's Blade was far more dramatic and enjoyable than any of the H5 campaigns.
One point I think they've succeeded on with their plans to create "grey" characters is Arantir (even though he's really just a more monastic rehash of Gauldoth). I think they were on a good track with the Arantir campaign in TotE, although even that was quite imperfect with "Asha uses all" and the whole spirit of Isabel nonsense.
While I'm willing to believe Heroes VI will have a much, much better storyline than H5 (partially because Nival is gone and partly because two people I trust explicitly have both read the H6 story and tell me as such), I think there are still two big problems with Ashan as a long-term setting:
-----
1) The Dragon Gods thing was a mistake - not a problem in any permanent way, but it creates a few problems as it stands. It's so limiting, like the creators wanted to write themselves into a corner. Including dragons who are unambiguously powerful deities means two things: you are more or less forced to tie every major story you write in this setting, in some way or another, back to either 1) - religion and spiritualism or 2) - lizards. If you don't do so, you are diverging from the creation myth, whereas if you do so, things will probably run stale before long.
It's only the fifth year of Ashan and we've already piled through a "crazy heretics take over the Empire" story arc, a "pissed-off god gets freed" story arc and an "I, Lord Evil, want to become a god" story arc. Can these plots about eclipses and fanatics possibly stay fresh for another 20 years?
It's also very easy for some uninitiated writer to repeat themself accidentally when doing Dragon storylines, since we've been having these in Might and Magic since 1988. We had already seen plots about dragon blood, dragon creation, crystal dragons, several factions of dragon slayers, dragonfathers, dragon oppression in Garrote Gorge, Dragon Pharaohs, dragon rage, two dragon queens, several dragon kings and a dragon war in AvLee before Ashan was even mentioned.
Notice that the "original" universe didn't really encounter this kind of problem since Heroes chose never to fully showcase the creation myth (Ancients) and told mostly unrelated stories from the beginning. This led to the games writing themselves into a corner too with the Forge and the Reckoning, but at least the stories never threatened to repeat themselves a lot.
-----
2) The Demons and the "Sheogh = EVIL" vibe given off in every single one of the games released so far runs contrary to the idea of a moral dichotomy, which Ashan is supposedly built upon. You might've noticed that we've never had the chance to play as an actual Demon hero in the main storylines/campaigns so far, not even once. Even Heroes VI doesn't seem to allow it - in the Inferno campaign we're a human yet again.
It seems that Demons are the "leper faction" we'll never get to use for some reason. Maybe the writers are taking their sweet time about this and we'll see some ambiguity in the Demons later on, but for the moment it is annoying me that they are the unambiguous "baddies". To be able to call a "dark" setting successful, you need to be able to empathise with or see the justification in the villains' questionable acts as well as those of the heroes.
All I can see in the Ashan Demons is as follows: these things are unkillable, have been imprisoned in the core of the earth by one of two bigoted gods for no real reason, and will inevitably consume the world or be consumed. They're even less sympathetic than the Borg. Every single one of them - without exception - seems to wish to (directly or indirectly) kill everything that isn't a Demon, so where's the remorse or depth?
All of the Demons we've seen so far are fanatics or pseudo-fanatics serving Urgash, with no exceptions. Why are they all sworn to the same cause? Are there no Demons who don't serve Urgash like butlers? A Demon who serves Elrath or Sylanna might be interesting, but I don't see any of that kind of thinking in the games as of yet. It seems that (aside from humans) if you are of a certain race, you serve your race's god and that is that. There's very little realism or drama or pathos in that.
-----
I'm also a little annoyed that there have been no big, credible plot twists which might shake the face of the world. The only things that come close are "Sareth = Messiah" and "Griffin Empire = destroyed". The former most people guessed before playing the game, and the latter is a waste since there has been no sequel to pick up on it yet. I hope there'll be a few bigger surprises in H6 which will have an effect on the dynamic of future games, though I'm not sure if a prequel leaves any room for that kind of thing. In other words, I hope there is a point to the storyline.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
|
|
Wckey
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 04:38 PM |
|
|
^
That is something that annoys me too. Asha created 6 races and Urgash created the Demons. So supposedly in Ashan there are the same quantity of demons as the 6 "main factions", yet while these factions can have different believes, demons can't.
About variety of believes in the same faction, at least it looks like in H6 they are thinking on doing that, since Akasha looks like a Naga that follows necromancers.
____________
Come back soon, Elvin!
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 05:06 PM |
|
|
Quote:
About variety of believes in the same faction, at least it looks like in H6 they are thinking on doing that, since Akasha looks like a Naga that follows necromancers.
Or not. Either many inferno heroes are non-demon cultists, the fact that they're there doesn't necessarily mean they have exactly the same beliefs. Also given the demon society's formation only the top of the top can afford to have their own ideology if you ask me. Rest are trapped between doing the dirty work and being killed at their master's command so the only way to be loyal is fear and/or fanaticism. It is possible that non all enjoy what they do but are trapped in this vicious circle and do not know/cannot do better.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 05:36 PM |
|
|
Quote:
1) The Dragon Gods thing was a mistake - not a problem in any permanent way, but it creates a few problems as it stands. It's so limiting, like the creators wanted to write themselves into a corner.
I'm not so sure it is that big a problem. Take for instance the Dragon-lance setting. It has a good handfull of, as you nicely put it, "unambiguously powerful deities". And it had many many fantastic stories. And there are so many more to write. Secularisation can be adressed, the subject of free-will vs divine predestination, the varying degrees of divine good and evil and their interconnecting conflicts, demi-gods and likely a whole lot more.
Where I agree that creating the Gods, sort of forces you to use them. But it does not have to be a problem, if one is creative enough.
And for one thing the existance of a multitude of varying, but limited deities can so much more intersting than they portray it. Take the rich Egyptian, Greek or Norse Pantheons. They make for a whole lot more entertaining stories than the boring all-mighty, singular Christian/Muslim/Jewish deity.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 06:10 PM |
|
Edited by MrDragon at 18:11, 18 Apr 2011.
|
What I want to see:
The Dragons Gods go classic pantheon mode!
As previously mentioned (like the post above this one) the Dragons gods COULD potentially be used a lot more effectively if they were given more personality and especially conflict amongst each other.
Also an interesting observation on Demonic nature.
Demons follow Urgash, the Dragon God of Chaos, unquestionably and dutifully, Chaos supposedly has as only redeeming trait (in Ashan as described so far) Freedom.
I'm not going to bother explaining, it should be pretty obvious what the massive flaws here are, even the Necromancers aren't that unified, and they follow Order above all else, even (or especially) life!
I've often thought of what other types of demons roam through Sheogh, and if those are also subservient peons.
Despite all that Demons have a sense of self and individuality, which is why it's a lot more jarring then say the Borg that they all have pretty much the same views.
Again, in CoH, they show a more interesting picture, where the lives Demons lead seems a lot more interesting.
If they are fine with letting Demons be individuals casually, then why not Morally and Ethically as well?
But also, please bring back the option to play a Villain from time to time, Starcraft and Warcraft III is a great example, where you shuffle around your alignment from campaign to campaign yet keeps telling the same story.
Alternatively, Warcraft I and Warcraft II (to some extent, officially bits of both campaign happened, but in the end the Alliance won.) were also great with what effectively was both a "good" and "evil" ending.
Maybe give us a nice alternate ending where we succeed as Demon Lord and break open Sheogh for once and for all.
Possibly even a whole "alternate time-line" of where things went horribly wrong.
Yes, there are games that do the whole evil thing as primary feature, but usually it goes into full cliche/parody mode then, checking the entire old "Things NOT to do as an Evil Overlord List" like it's part of the groceries. (looking at you! Overlord!)
Short version: enough with the goodie-human bias, let me do something not every game and it's prequel does!
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 08:07 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 20:12, 18 Apr 2011.
|
Quote:
Oh? What do you have in mind? A few things have been retconned mind you but I'm curious what you've noticed on your end.
The usually mentioned stuff. That three moons suddenly turn into one moon (the given explanation is more than unsatisfactory), actually THE Moon which is no moon*... The Seraphim being supreme Angels in Heroes V and pseudo-Angels in Heroes VI. The Cerberus affair of course.  And so on.
*Further to the above, without being exactly a plot hole, it would appear that the Demons gain access to the rest of the world when Asha herself - or her cocoon, to be precise - blocks the sun. This could be exploited nicely by a good author but at this point it looks like "Oops, sorry guys, my fat a$$ got in the way again, hope enough of you down there survived".
Regarding the Demon issue: I'm 100% against the "villain of last resort concept" which is overexploited in Heroes V and uses Inferno as its tool but it is very likely to be used for the future as well. The redskins are doomed to be defeated from the start as they are the only marginal factor and as such don't fit in a world which explores (or actually tries to explore) how many shades the grey can have. They will be defeated in Heroes VI as well, there is no other option, otherwise Ashan just ceases to exist and the Heroes V events never happen. They are just a plot device and nothing more than that - they appear to give a start to some story and disappear when the story is told and their presence is no longer required. In Heroes V, the Demons appear to allow the idiotic stories of several idiotic characters to be told and not to do something themselves. In Heroes VI they will appear for the very same reason, just hopefully this time the characters and their stories won't be idiotic. As long as they go out of Sheogh with the sole purpose to destroy everything which is destructible, they will be defeated and everything will start again - until they finally succeed (which is very unlikely, because, you know, bad guys almost never win in the fictional worlds, only in the real one) or are completely wiped out after a successful invasion in their prison realm (which is the most likely outcome). In my opinion, they can be redeemed only if Asha and Urgash turn to be NOT what they seem to be and the whole conflict is re-defined.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 08:47 PM |
|
|
Maybe in H7 the Demons will be freed from Sheogh and start a rebellion against the Demon Lords and the Sovereign to become a free race and set up a shop and their own little nation on the surface of Ashan?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 08:52 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Maybe in H7 the Demons will be freed from Sheogh and start a rebellion against the Demon Lords and the Sovereign to become a free race and set up a shop and their own little nation on the surface of Ashan?
I had the same Idea once. Since the Demons will likely get released at the end of DMoMM, they can swipe over the Free Cities and the rebel against the sovereign. Perhaps lead by the reincarnated Demon Overlords. A Demon Civil War might be just the thing to break their stereo-type.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 09:34 PM |
|
|
|
Hardly possible without creating an even more difficult situation. The Demons are creations of Urgash and the means to get him out of his prison. If they don't help him, why the creations of Asha would? And if Urgash just remains imprisoned with no chances of escaping, what good is he for the story?
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 09:46 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Hardly possible without creating an even more difficult situation. The Demons are creations of Urgash and the means to get him out of his prison. If they don't help him, why the creations of Asha would? And if Urgash just remains imprisoned with no chances of escaping, what good is he for the story?
Why would it be wrong to create a more difficult situation?
There could be a faction among the Demons that whish to destroy Ashan, so it can act as a catalyst to release Urgash. Another Faction strives to keep Ashan intact, so once Urgash is released, he may destroy it himself. (Becoming the bad-guy that helps the good-guys because he doesn't want another to get all the glory) Or a faction who embody the total freedom of Demons even more and want to free themselves of Urgash and the Demon Overlords/Sovereign and want to become their own anarchic society.
Or the Demons could escape Urgash' graps, because their link with Sheogh is broken.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 10:10 PM |
|
|
Also why would the story have to involve Urgash as the driving force of the bad guys?
Ashan could be made into more then a one trick pony.
(It's current one-trick being eclipses that potentially set in motion the release of all demon kind and their various lords and god, despite the fact that you see demons outside Sheogh all the time in all of Ashan's games.)
What if the Necromancers uncover the secrets of a spell that could wipe out all life on Ashan?
How about a corrupt human/elven king bent on conquest? simple but it's doable.
A group of giant monsters are released and rampaging across the world.
Or how about we go a much smaller scale instead, not every story has to be about saving the world, a country will suffice, or a town, or heck even a single individual life.
Or how about we don't save anything at all, maybe we're doing it for our own gain, fame, fortune, glory, honour, love. Plenty of other motivations besides "Evil" Dragon God Bent on Domination/Destruction of entire planet.
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 10:35 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Also why would the story have to involve Urgash as the driving force of the bad guys?
It doesn't have to. As I see it, the only prerequisite is that the story involves more than 1 faction or that you've a story for each faction.
So the Demons of Inferno could come round eventually, though they needn't initially.
But what I was discussing was that Demons do not have to be one-trick-ponies.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
TwinMatrix
Hired Hero
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 10:36 PM |
|
|
I WNAT GRIFNFN ETNRAL PART 2!!!11 BD
No, not really. Back to the HoMM3/4 style please thank you good.
____________
|
|
Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 10:39 PM |
|
Edited by Cepheus at 22:39, 18 Apr 2011.
|
I should mention that I don't think text boxes are back in the official campaigns of H6, but they are in the game and I believe mapmakers can add them at will.
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 10:42 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I should mention that I don't think text boxes are back in the official campaigns of H6, but they are in the game and I believe mapmakers can add them at will.
That's fine.
Textboxes are one way of getting a message across, not necesarilly THE way.
They're functional, but there are so many more ways.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
|
|
posted April 18, 2011 11:19 PM |
|
|
To be honest, I prefer voice acting to text boxes usually (when the voice acting doesn't cause me to burst out in laughter or cringe due to it's quality or delivery that is.)
A classic rule of video games is that people don't want to wade through lots of text, of course short text boxes used carefully and cleverly can be a very powerful communication tool in the narrating arsenal.
It's also proven that a simple sound whilst the text slowly appears on screen letter by letter that people can and will pay more attention to written text, which is why so many RPGs use the textbox with character art back-and-forth conversation, like Fire Emblem. (though there the story cutscenes usually drag on a little long for my tastes, which I blame on the usual needless complexity and depth those games have.)
Course even older games like Secret of Mana (go play it, seriously, DO IT!) used the good ol fashioned text box, with sprites animating slightly or just names attatched to the text box being more then enough to make a conversation followable.
in HIII some I read, some I didn't, but I always liked the ones that kinda reminded me of DnD, like a DM narrating and describing the enviroment in detail for example.....
.....
ok... text boxes are pretty damn good actually (not always) but GOOD voice acting still has it beat, it's just so very hard to get GOOD voice acting....
Anyway I'm going to nurture my little brain-child, the OTHER Sheogh faction! (about the 4th Ashan faction I've come up with, but this one I might just put up on this forum, (others being a Faceless/Elfless-Dungeon, Elfless-Sylvan (for laughs) and Only-2-Dwarves-Fortress(HV)))
|
|
admira
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 19, 2011 03:00 AM |
|
|
ummmm in Plot driving case, I think there are several alternatives:
1. Children of Asha went mad (especially Ylath after his creation left him) and gave birth to an anti-human race that mysteriously pilot some weird plot against Humans Empire.
or
2. Some ancient race that actually the origin behind the creation of beast-man, the actual race that teach the Wizard in silver cities of "Human Modification"
or
3. Asha's went mad and plotting to end everything by creating an elite powerful undead force (you know the spider goddess face one), the only weapon that works against them is Urgash's eternal Chaos Flame
 though I must agree the Dragon Gods concept is very limiting in many cases.
|
| |
|
|
