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| Thread: The perfect villain |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 20, 2011 08:59 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:07, 20 Apr 2011.
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The perfect villain
All right people, we have another delay of the release date and as most likely this will mean another news blackout for the next few months, we can philosophise a bit. So, the conventional wisdom states that Ashan is still to find someone or something to sit on the vacant chair of the Adequate Villain and is a universe away from finding somebody suitable for the throne of the Great Villain. I thought that this is worth a discussion.
A little general meditation first. First of all, The Villain is a must for every self-respecting story which involves some kind of conflict. Without digging into the human psychology, the urge to marginalize, the subjectivity of the moral notions, et cetera, et cetera, I'd say that The Villain is just as essential for a good plot as the conventional "positive" character. In short, he not only triggers or continues certain events that form the backbone of the entire story but helps immensely for the character development of all involved participants who help or oppose him. Stopping here however provides nothing more than a support entity, which - even if it does great - can not be considered a fully developed character. This is the case with the vast number of villains in the books, movies, even the everyday political propaganda directed against someone of something and so on. This kind of villains could be pretty interesting, if presented well, but lack the integrity of these villains who are actually complete characters. The latter could pretend for their own place in the story which differs from the role of the always available plot device. However, they could appear to be too "inconvenient" characters as the exposition of their function as a reflection of the dark sides of the human nature is normally unpleasant for an audience which spends its real life in attempts to avoid, suppress and fight with these negative aspects - internally and externally. That's why a Villain with full personality is a rare animal.
Anyway, both "main types" of Villains could be turned into great contributors to the story. There are many sub-types which turn the small coterie into a whole society. Without even remotely exhausting the possibilities, here are some of the more narrowly defined categories of Villains:
The Mysterious Terror
This "sub-type" takes advantage of the built-in human fear of the unknown. The representatives have next to no personality of their own but rather receive a degree of such via other characters - usually their victims or main opponents. Their primary weapon is the psychological shock which deprives their opponents - and sometimes even the audience as well - of their rationality and thus ultimately takes from the humans what they consider their unique characteristic which makes them superior to the other known forms of life. These villains are silent, usually do not rely on brute force, stay behind the scenes most of the time and only show themselves to horrify the audience.
As a story-telling instrument, they are relatively easy to use but not universally likeable as not everybody finds the idea of being scared very enjoyable - and an effective villain of this type is pretty scary.
The Juggernaut
Unlike the previous type, this villain is straight-forward as a ballistic missile. His weapon is the direct display of enormous, nigh-unstoppable power which is supposed to demoralize his opponents and victims and crush them as fast as possible. His capacity for destruction and very high resistance to similar counter-measures bring despair. The effect is such that the audience begins to feel its physical (as opposed to psychological in the previous case) weakness and insignificance and through them - the awful odds which the protagonist faces in his/her battle against the villain. The brute force has always been the final argument of the human beings in cases where the reason proves insufficient, but the question here is - what happens if the brute force of the enemy is much greater than yours?
Although his presence can certainly be felt at any point during the story, this villain usually lacks complex character. Being a representative of something very basic - the raw power - he is very basic himself (this does not mean stupid though). As such, he is easy to use but if the focus is only on the brute force, he can quickly become tedious.
The Evil Mastermind
My personal favourite kind of villain (and that's why there are two pictures  ), this one is usually much closer to the villains in the real life than his other "relatives" from the fictional worlds. Initially he acts from the position of a potential huge force which is not yet unleashed and could be easily contained if he overreacts. As he is not the master of the situation and there are other significant factors apart from him, he relies on subterfuge and manipulation, playing with the other characters to achieve his aims. Occasionaly he may interfere directly and even display some of the characteristics of the previous two types, but most of the time he behaves like a chess player. Due to all this, this villain usually has well-developed character and can be at least as complex as the protagonist - which among other things brings him close to the "complete" main type. Thus using him in a story is not easy. The intelligent villain needs intelligent opponents to display all of his qualities and this increases the requirements for all participants in the story. Moreover, his actions have to be believable as otherwise the audience - which is provoked to think as well - will notice the transparency and will not be really charmed.
The Twisted Philosopher
Actually this is a relatively general category. This type of villain can display a lot of different qualities but the core is usually the same - a character who inspires fear, disgust and serious thinking, all at the same time. He's undoubtedly a villain but focusing only on his evil side is impossible because of the multi-layered personality which the character has. He reminds the audience that the fast and easy explanations are rarely true and the more you dig, the more you discover (and not necessarily like or hate). That said, this villain usually uses some kind of confusion - attacks the orthodox, shatters it, forces you to think outside the box but to remain very cautious at the same time because his oddity can ultimately result in not-very-nice things and you could be fooled to think that he's harmless.
Given the above, this type of villain is extremely difficult to create in a fictional world and requires a lot of talent. On the other hand though, he could be invaluable if designed well enough as such a character undoubtedly adds depth to the story.
Apart from the afore mentioned types - which are all ideal and could be mixed in many ways - there are others which I consider "insufficient villains". Normally these are characters which are not essentially negative, but are damned, blackmailed, tempted, tricked and so on to become "evil". For example - Darth Vader. Such quasi-villains have the chance to be redeemed at one point - by themselves or by somebody else - and serve as a bridge between the protagonists and the antagonists. They can have quite a neat place in the story, even dominating over the main villains in this regard, but ultimately they are not complete villains themselves.
OK now, if you are still here focus on the following task - what should one main villain look like? And the main villain the world of Ashan? Does the latter need main villain at all or just a group of episodic villains (more precisely main villains but only during one particular story for each of them)? What emphasize should be put on him as opposed to the other characters? And whatever else you want related to the topic.
Bring it on!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted April 20, 2011 09:13 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 21:15, 20 Apr 2011.
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I prefer anti-villains. Arantir, Gavin Magnus and the like.
And, of course, magnificent mongrels such as Sandro.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted April 21, 2011 02:00 AM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 02:06, 21 Apr 2011.
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Nice Post. 
I believe their should be a wide array of different villains, especially in a big universe like Ashan. Heroes is a big game with many factions, nations and groups so it would only be natually to include as many types as possible.
I'm no expert on Ashan but this is my general take, on which roles should filled:
Urgash - The Mysterious Terror
Kha Beleth - The Evil Mastermind
The Juggernaut type should be filled with certain heroes, but I don't think any of them should have any bigger role. Or rather I don't think they should act as the highest source of "evil".
The Twisted Philosopher is likely the one least fitting in a heroes universe, however he could still be there, but mostly only act as a sub-character.
However I do not like your idea of an "insufficient villain", that they should be less worthy simply because they change from good or bad. Personally I think they many times are the most deep and interesting villains. (for example Teyrn Loghain in Dragon Age: Origins)
But then again there are villains that belong in all the groups. 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Astromidas
Hired Hero
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posted April 21, 2011 02:25 AM |
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Quote:
The Twisted Philosopher is likely the one least fitting in a heroes universe, however he could still be there, but mostly only act as a sub-character.
Perhaps a Academy Wizard could fit this role.
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admira
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 21, 2011 04:55 AM |
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Is this some kind of prediction, or we are free to assume ourselves on the possibility?
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 21, 2011 05:04 AM |
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Someone that might be able to fit the twisted philosopher would be Michael. They did say that he would be (At least partially) evil, and, well, he's an angel. 
Great post, BTW. Just one question... Where would the disillusioned hero fall?
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted April 21, 2011 06:34 AM |
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I think there might be an evil mastermind behind Michael's resurrection. It's just too weird that he suddenly come back like that.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted April 21, 2011 08:20 AM |
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I would like to add to the list
the omnipotent trickster
this character's sole motivation for being evil is just to see people suffer because he thinks it's funny. a plague that causes millions to die in agony is probably what will make him smile. a sub division of the evil mastermind, mysterious terror and the juggernaut (b*tch), in that he cannot be stopped by conventional means, and must be destroyed using more esoteric methods. see, for example, Mr Mxyzptlk.
you can probably fit it into the other three.
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted April 21, 2011 10:12 AM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 10:14, 21 Apr 2011.
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Very nice write-up on villainy.
The root of the problem, the reason I guess this thread exists is because, I'd say.. Ashan's villains and antagonistic forces lack threat.
Talking here about specifically the Demons, they are Ashan's go-to villains, but they have two massive flaws which make them a lot less threatening:
First, they are seemingly outnumbered (I know the lore disagrees) but when you factor in that not only have they repeatedly been bested, usually they have been bested by an alliance of more or less every other faction on Ashan, it feels like the Demons are a school ground bully, sure they can easily beat a person by themselves given the chance, but when everybody gangs up on them, it's a rather one-sided affair.
The lore claims they have the numbers and power to overrun Ashan, but we never see any indication of this in game.
Second, simplicity, the demons of Ashan are incredibly one-dimensional, they don't have an air of mystery, we know pretty much everything important about them.
They don't (as indicated in the first flaw) seemingly have the might to steamroll over Ashan's peoples.
They lack the subtelty and tact of a good mastermind, one where even the audience is not sure what's going on untill it's to late, their plans are simple and too the point which could work if they displayed at least one other trait.
They lack the wisdom, understanding and reasoning to intimidate the audience psychologically.
The Demons of Ashan can be summed up in one sentence:
"Dudes who wants to destroy stuff."
All the complexities of Demon lore, their lords, Urgash, their prison world of Sheogh or even their creatures don't give any kind of added dimension to what they are.
A good villain can't just be "evil" he needs to be intimidating on a higher level, looking monstrous doesn't cut it.
Personally one of my favorite villains is David Xanatos from Gargoyles, he's not even truly "evil" but he's an overwhelming pressence in the series, he is immensely powerful (through money, technology and subbordinates), incredibly resourceful and intelligent, he actually "wins" repeatedly, besting the protagonists with plans that literraly cannot fail because both outcomes work in his favour.
He is in fact the trope namer of "The Xanatos Gambit", a plan which always results in victory for the plotter because all the various out-comes lead to it. (not to be confused with "Batman Gambit"or "Xanatos Roulette")
He is a charming and entertaining character and still threatening.
Xanatos is such a great villain because him winning is believable. (heck in that series it's even the most likely outcome)
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 21, 2011 11:59 AM |
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Ah, yes. Xanatos. One of my favorite chars in the world of chars and the reason I own a copy of Machiavelli's The Prince. And one of the best villains that isn't evil.
I would also like to add three more archtypes to the roster.
The ArchNemesis:
The ever returning foil of the Hero. The one that ever returns to thwart the plans of the Hero or has found a new way to achieve world domination. They guy(or gal but for the sake of argument let's assume it's a he) is practically unstoppable, because no matter how often he is defeated he will return to torment you again. Because more often than not, to the Archnemesis it is personal. To him the torment of the hero is a bigger priority that the actual achievement of the actual plan. Their means are diverse, but it is the ArchNemesis destiny and desire to clash with the Hero again and again. Either untill one of them is defeated, or to remain in eternal combat.
The flaw of this villain is that you need a Hero for this to work well.
The Mirror-Image or Evil Twin:
A villain that is everything the hero is not, yet everything that defines him as well. (again, for the sake of argument I assume it's a he) He is the polar opposite of the Hero. He looks a lot like the Hero, except for minor differences. Everything that is good about the Hero is bad in his Mirror Image. If the Hero adores kittens, his mirror image loves nothing more than putting kittens through an industrial woodchipper. Most of the time he shares the hero's quirks, strenghts and weaknesses. If the hero goes weak by the light of the moon, so does his evil twin. If the hero loves the girl, so does his evil twin. And everything you need to defeat him, defeats the hero as well, which more often than not he tries to let you do but creating confusion to who is who.
Though ofen this type of villain coincides with the Archnemesis, this is not always the case. Again the flaw of this type is that you need a hero.
The Mad Scientist:
The kind of weirdo that has the means and the mind to destroy you, everything you hold dear or everything period. And for some reason or another seems hellbent on doing just that. Not because he hates you, ok he might, but usually that's not the case nor his reason. More often than not he does this to prove himself either right, "for science!" or to the eyes of his ridiculing colleagues.
Often characterized by their labcoats, baldness or wild, messed hair, extremly bad/fake Eastern/Central European Accent and their habit of using long sentences filled with big words(often to the confusion of the rest of the room and/or comically himself).
Most often he has to be stopped of the damage he could and likely will cause and not because he is evil per se. Often the Mad Scientist is a very tragic villain.
In HoMM, this role is perfectly suitable for Wizards, Necromancers and Warlocks.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted April 21, 2011 12:17 PM |
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Edited by vicheron at 12:17, 21 Apr 2011.
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There are also the more genre aware villains like the pragmatic and the indulgent villains.
The pragmatic villain is more concerned with survival than conquering the world. They generally try to strike some kind of mutually beneficial deal with the heroes. The villain provides the heroes with monsters to fight so that the heroes can become famous and rich, in exchange, the heroes never do too much damage to the villain's property. Thus, a nice balance is achieved.
The indulgent villain pretty much knows that they're probably going to get killed by some self righteous hero and has made their peace with that eventuality. Their goal is to simply maintain their decadent living conditions for as long as they can. After all, the momentary pain of having your head cut off is a small price to pay for a lifetime of luxury, gluttony, self indulgence, ecstasy, and wanton acts too lascivious to be put into words.
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vitorsly
Known Hero
Joker!
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posted April 22, 2011 06:03 PM |
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What villain should be in H6?
Demons as the juggernaut ( not only because one of their units is actualy NAMED jugernaut) and some dark and unknow faction comanding them as the mastermind.
That mastermind goes around creating chaos between the factions and when everyone hates eachoter he unleashes the demons.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 22, 2011 06:47 PM |
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Really nice post.
I'd bet the original poster didn't play any Final Fantasy ever, though. Otherwise the Voldemort-esque "abused-child-becomes-a-cruel-monster" would have been first on the list. I hope HoMM won't have that, by the way. It tends to become cliched after a while.
I'd hope HoMM has a varied roster of good villains, though even best stories often fail to deliver multiple good antagonist character. Wait, thinking about it, it's pretty impossibile that HoMM VI manages to do so.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted April 22, 2011 07:34 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 19:34, 22 Apr 2011.
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In a story line like H6 where are the campaigns will be tied, I really hope the tense and excitement will be build up during the all the five campaigns. In a way that the main villain that has remained hidden will slowly be revealed.
Of course it shouldn't be made as simple as I make it sound, but still that general idea is IMO very fitting for fantasy game of this caliber.
(but mind you that this should only apply if they have a main villain, which I don't want them to have on a second thought )
____________
"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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thehiddeneye
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 22, 2011 07:36 PM |
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My idea
My suggestion: the Faceless, through their (willing or unwilling) puppet Michael the Archangel, setting the Demons and Undead loose on the world to archieve some mysterious and diabolical scheme.
They would be the perfect villains behind the scenes- secretive and manipulative, gathering their terrible hosts in the depths to plunge the world into darkness.
Their faction would look something like this:
Heroes:
Overlord- Dark Lord (Tears) or Tyrant (Blood)
Warlock- Dominator (Tears) or Dark Destroyer (Blood)
Core:
Thrall - Forsaken Thrall
Watcher - Beholder
Gargoyle - Wargoyle
Elite:
Minotaur - Minotaur Gladiator
Hydra - Abyssal Hydra
Drake Rider - Shadow Knight
Champion:
Hidden - Ancient
Boss:
Red Dragon
Black Dragon
Faceless Lord
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted April 22, 2011 08:14 PM |
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Quote:
The Twisted Philosopher is likely the one least fitting in a heroes universe, however he could still be there, but mostly only act as a sub-character.
What about Arantir in Dark messiah?
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 23, 2011 08:03 PM |
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Quote:
However I do not like your idea of an "insufficient villain", that they should be less worthy simply because they change from good or bad.
You misunderstand me, I'm not saying that they are inferior as characters but only as villains. Such "insufficient villain" could be an excellent character and has the benefit of flexibility in comparison with the "hardcore villains" - which makes him potentially more variegated (and usually results in more developed personality overall). The thing is that someone who converts from "good" to "bad" could evoke feelings like pity, compassion, even some sort of kind-hearted sympathy in the audience. These "positive" feelings share the same common space with the fear, the disgust, the hate and so on reactions of the spectator and reduce their negative impact. Actually the vast majority of the villains have something to like about them and aren't pitch black, but those who are made villains and not born villains so to speak, are generally more likely to receive the "it's not entirely his fault" attitude from the others.
Anyway, about Ashan. What it doesn't have is a villain who is really problematic and complex enough to be interesting. The attitude of all races towards the Demons range from "Oh brother, they again? Now we have to go and fight them instead of sitting on our a$$es. What a nuisance..." to "Woooha, demons! That's an excellent opportunity to put my shiniest armour on! Just wait to see the chicks' reaction when they see me on the street with it, going to fight bravely". Like they are the local bullies who have become too irritating and have to be taught their places - but why not have fun at the same time? Some problem... The other "episodic villains" are even less notable. On the other hand, the personality of these bad guys who actually have at least a bit more consciousness than a chimpanzee is as intriguing as a brick wall. As a result, you have supernumeraries rather than characters.
What Ashan needs is a villain who can make his presence felt - but not through the artificial cries of the pseudo-victims who are there just so you can say "OK, he killed/tortured/mesmerized/etc. some people so he's gotta be the bad guy, right?". The good villain provokes strong feelings and non-standard thinking in the audience and not in the other characters. In my opinion at least 30-40% of the entire story has to be explicitly dedicated to him and more precisely to the things which will convince the player that his victims are facing a real threat and not a dummy with a label "I'm eeevil". Kiril and Kha-Beleth hold some promise in this regard, as well as Michael if he plays his role nicely (a scenario which will present him as some fanatically righteous maniac will fail as it is too predictable, it has to be something much deeper).
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 24, 2011 02:28 AM |
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Okay, first of all I think we're going to have to separate story from gameplay and remerge them later on.
About story: We're going to have to accept that HOMM isn't a novel (likewise to all video games, except maybe the ones who want to be choose-your-own-adventure-books, like DA and most other bioware games.) So one thing we have to avoid is complex, explicit characterisation, which would involve a lot of reading and watching cut-scenes, which is lame when you're using an interactive medium. Okay, with that in mind, let's talk the other thing.
About gameplay: A story in a game is best told through its mechanics (as zenofex ha spointed out: the game sizes up demons, but they didn't feel like a big threat in-game), which admittedly is hard in a TBS, like HOMM, but it can be done. A villain, in general, can be reflected by the way you, the protagonist, have to fight him. This is, after all, a strategy game where generals duke it out, so a lot is going to have to be told through the situation they're thrown in and the objectives they're given.
The merge: There needs to be a variety of villains, who reflect certain kinds of threats which need to be dealt with differently. HOMM 5, actually has a juggernaut scenario, by the way. Second campaign, first mission of the original game. Yes, the juggernaut "villain" is Godric in that scenario, an unstoppable foe which you have to outsmart, outrun and outthink at all costs, because toe-to-toe you're no match for him.
At least, that's how I think you make a rich game. I hate to admit it, but warcraft three had a very rich campaign in that regard, though the mechanics in a HOMM-game are a lot more limited in comparison to an RTS, so they require more creativity and... Magic?
I also like to think that a serious tone ultimately cripples the game, because the cut-scenes don't suspend my disbelief for a second and burdening the player with too much reading is a viable option (but something I wouldn't do). I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with me that the melodrama in the fifth installment of HOMMV was uninvolving or laughable at the least.
Anyway, I'm totally straying off-topic.
The answer to your question is easy and should be responded to in total video game logic IMHO: There should be one boss (bowser) that is both powerful and incredibly intelligent and has several evil generals (the koopas) with various qualities (and troops) at his bidding which you will have to beat or render harmless or turn over after which you defeat the big bad himself. This should be clear from the story and from the mechanics of each campaign scenario.
So the answer is: a twisted philosopher mastermind at the top and below him everything else (I think it would be a fun scenario where you have to try to whittle down a juggernaut character through a bunch of secondary objectives or sending other generals to their deaths in order to weaken the enemy numbers and buy you more time, wouldn't that be a gripping way to lose characters, if you had to do so out of necessity of game mechanics?)
(a strategist villain would send cleverly-assembled, small, but strong forces to attack from several sides, so the player would be forced to decide whether to split up his troops amongst his generals to fight the other generals or try to rush the tactician at his HQ with a large army)
(I'm not a game designer, but even I can come up with ideas which are somewhat interesting IMO, so ubi should too) (and they have come up with interesting campaign scenarios, though not in HoF, that campaign was horrible)
You could also do it the WCIII-way and have one faction rise to power in the first campaigns and the other ones trying to suppress that one in the later campaigns. I would opt this route, if you wanted a complex story, because "good versus evil" isn't complex. It doesn't mean it can't be engaging, endearing, fun and/or epic. It's just not complex and there is nothing wrong with that, by the way.
No one blames the Iliad for having primitive characters, after all.
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted April 24, 2011 09:03 AM |
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Very interesting and valid point, BUT, there is a way to get true and deep complexity in a villain character with only minimal dialogue and cutscenes.
The villain's actions and the reprucutions of those actions.
One of the strongest ways to convey a story in a game is to follow the rules of "show, don't tell."
Still a little dialogue in the form of cutscenes or text boxes can be all that you need, when used sparringly.
As much as I like Final Fantasy games, there are WAAAAY to often extremely long cutscenes that pull me out of the action, and in the end, that's what I care about.
Particulairly annoying when I'm about to engage an extremely difficult boss for the 5th time and have to sit through 10 minutes of babble I've already heard 4 times before when even the 1st time could have been done faster, cleaner and with less exposition I was already aware of.
Yahtzee said it best I believe with: "You're supposed to weave narritive into the game-play." that should be your ultimate goal in a game when it comes to structuring the story.
Even something as simple as having the voice overs happen whilst playing the game is much better then ramming you into a lengthy cutscene.
Warcraft III (again) does it pretty well with plenty of characters actually throwing out bits of story dialogue during many missions that help characterise them, like in Undead mission 3 where Arthas and Sylvannas verbally snipe at each other back and forth outside of cutscenes, and the cutscenes themselves are usually short with a lot more interesting things happening then just dialogue.
AND ALL THE CUTSCENES ARE SKIPPABLE. <- IMPORTANT!!
Short version: Villains can be given more then enough character through little to no dialogue if their actions or the results there of can speak for them.
Then again, admittedly many games can be great games with little to no story at all.
Like the early mario games, Bowser kidnaps the princess, mario goes to save her, nothing else is or needs to be said.
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yaeliccc
Known Hero
Undead, but warm and fuzzy
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posted April 24, 2011 09:16 AM |
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Ehmm... not gonna lie, I havent really read that much but this being homm6 thread, Im certain that the blacksofty created the most hated villain of all times already....
since he started being the news (the only news) there isnt one member here who doesnt hate him  perfect villain of homm 6 
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