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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 ... 30 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted August 09, 2012 01:26 PM |
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And what would he do in prison?
Spend his time weight-training, reading a series of books on the history of different countries in the world, playing a computer game where he builds a city, and watching films on DVD, I suppose.
However, in an asylum he's first and foremost an OBJECT OF STUDY.
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Elodin
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posted August 09, 2012 02:06 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:09, 09 Aug 2012.
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Apparently, in Texas you are not considered mentally handicapped with an IQ of 61.
Of course there are a couple interpretations, jokes and conclusions possible here.
But if you read Elodin's last to verses posts, you get the impression, that it's really god's own work to KILL people, if the opportunity presents itself and they offer the slightest excuse.
Yes, there are conclusions we can draw. Those seem to be:
1) Libbies are such gullible suckers that they will cry for cold hearted carrer criminals who murder pepole who turn them in to the cops.
2) That libbies are often unable/unwilling to determine right from wrong.
3) Don't mess with Texas.
Nah, i don't see how you could interpret anything I said as God goes around killing folks. The rational conclusion one could draw from my posts is that God says it is ok to protect yourself from predators as an individual and as a society. While libbies think the victim should have to protect the predator God says the victim can protect himself from the predator.
Anyways, shall we get this thread back on topic please?
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Seraphim
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posted August 09, 2012 07:12 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 19:16, 09 Aug 2012.
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Except that mentally handicapped are not "equal" to us when it comes to distinguishing right and wrong. Ever seen a person with a down syndrome? I'm sure you did.
Except that somebody with down syndrome is genetically deficient and can be proven by science to be so. IQ tests are not reliable.
Somebody with a childs intelligence would not go around threatening the witness,killing the witness ,use drugs etc.
I refuse to believe that a manchild can do that.
Same goes for Breivik. His actions seem to be far more elaborate and with a heinous meaning.
Also,regarding the courts ruling that this murderer did not recieve his injection is at loss for me.
Pedophiles, rapists and pyromanicas are also sick people. Why dont the courts exempt these people aswell? This is pure discrimination. Since when are diseases now of different ranking?
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And what would he do in prison?
Spend his time weight-training, reading a series of books on the history of different countries in the world, playing a computer game where he builds a city, and watching films on DVD, I suppose.
However, in an asylum he's first and foremost an OBJECT OF STUDY.
I am sorry but that is a weak point you got there. Asylums are not places for experimentation.
Even if he was to become a piece of study, why not imprison him and have him take "Medicine" in prison? Would not that be cheaper?
It seems to me that western laws are biased towards offenders and I find myself agreeing with Elodin here, at least partly.
Being too liberal towards offenders is never a good idea because you risk creating holes in the laws(Meant to be equal) ,thus promoting actions such as those from Breivik.
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Point is, you don't really need capital punishment for someone that's mentally challenged. Life in prison would seem a better idea, don't you think?
I cant really believe that they use all that carefully injected poison on criminals so that they can die peacefully...
A bullet would be much cheaper. But yes, a prison is still better than a mental hospital with DVD's, Training rooms and so on.
No, prisons should not be Ibiza hotels like in Norway.
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Doomforge
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posted August 09, 2012 07:38 PM |
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Quote:
Except that somebody with down syndrome is genetically deficient and can be proven by science to be so. IQ tests are not reliable. Somebody with a childs intelligence would not go around threatening the witness,killing the witness ,use drugs etc.
I refuse to believe that a manchild can do that.
It's not about our beliefs - let me state the official :
In Texas, the benchmark for mental retardation is an IQ of about 70 or below.
By official rules, he's retarded. Period.
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Same goes for Breivik. His actions seem to be far more elaborate and with a heinous meaning.
Breivik is deluded, not retarded.
Elodin: what about this?
Campos, the professor, said the circumstances of Wilson's conviction left significant room for doubt about his exact culpability in the crime. The lack of any aggravating factors -- the murder was not especially heinous or cruel, and did not involve multiple victims, a child or police officer -- also made it a good case for leniency on the basis of Wilson's mental deficits, he said.
"Obviously all murders are serious, but we're talking about a drug murder under ambiguous circumstances," he said. "This is just a very ordinary homicide, with a clearly mentally disabled defendant."
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del_diablo
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posted August 09, 2012 08:24 PM |
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Low IQ != Retarded
IQ is just a measuring stick that may or may not corrolate with one of several parameters for learning, wisdom, pattern identification, and the ability to recall. Hard autists usually have high IQ, but may be deemed retarded due low ability to function without some help-
I would assume the man is retarded and lacks legal protection, or just a normal person charged with murder. Flip a coin and pick one, I am not reading tabloids to find out.
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Doomforge
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posted August 09, 2012 09:01 PM |
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Quote:
Low IQ != Retarded
IQ is just a measuring stick that may or may not corrolate with one of several parameters for learning, wisdom, pattern identification, and the ability to recall. Hard autists usually have high IQ, but may be deemed retarded due low ability to function without some help-
I repeat again
In Texas, the benchmark for mental retardation is an IQ of about 70 or below.
I did not made those criteria. That's how it is in Texas.
The man was officially retarded there.
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Elodin
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posted August 09, 2012 09:13 PM |
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Quote:
It's not about our beliefs - let me state the official :
In Texas, the benchmark for mental retardation is an IQ of about 70 or below.
By official rules, he's retarded. Period.
Nah, Texas refered to tests showing him to be over 70 IQ. And that he acted in a cold hearted and calculated manner. He was in fact a career criminal, having served time twice before as a robber. And he was a drug dealer who got angry when someone snitched him out so he kidnapped the person and murdered him.
Sorry, those are not the actions of a mentally incompetent person.
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Elodin: what about this?
Campos, the professor, said the circumstances of Wilson's conviction left significant room for doubt about his exact culpability in the crime. The lack of any aggravating factors -- the murder was not especially heinous or cruel, and did not involve multiple victims, a child or police officer -- also made it a good case for leniency on the basis of Wilson's mental deficits, he said.
"Obviously all murders are serious, but we're talking about a drug murder under ambiguous circumstances," he said. "This is just a very ordinary homicide, with a clearly mentally disabled defendant."
He confessed to his crimes. Kidnapping is and murdering the victim is not an "ordinary" murder. He abducted his victim and killed him. This was also not a "drug murder" between competing drug dealers. It was one drug dealer killing a person who tipped off the cops about him dealing drugs.
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Texas and federal courts, however, rejected Wilson's claim that he was mentally retarded, siding with prosecutors who argued that his actions showed him to be a street-savvy criminal. Prosecutors also declared that other intelligence tests showed Wilson's IQ was in the low- to mid-70s.
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Wilson was convicted of murdering 21-year-old Jerry Williams in November 1992, several days after police seized 24 grams of cocaine from Wilson's apartment and arrested him. Witnesses testified that Wilson and another man, Andrew Lewis, beat Williams outside of a convenience store in Beaumont, about 80 miles east of Houston. Wilson, who was free on bond, accused Williams of snitching on him about the drugs, they said.
Witnesses said Wilson and Lewis abducted Williams, and neighborhood residents said they heard a gunshot a short time later. Williams was found dead on the side of a road the next day, wearing only socks, severely beaten and shot in the head and neck at close range.
....
At Wilson's capital murder trial, Lewis' wife testified that Wilson confessed to the killing in front of her, her husband and his own wife.
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Doomforge
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posted August 09, 2012 09:16 PM |
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Looks like you don't get the point here, Elodin. Why do you put what he did in bold? I don't see people writing "omg he's innocent". We're all aware he's a criminal.
The question is: does a retarded man deserve death penalty?
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Seraphim
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posted August 09, 2012 10:32 PM |
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The question is: does a retarded man deserve death penalty?
I dont think that being IQ 60 == Mentally retarded.
My answer is yes or at least send him to prison,life long.
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Breivik is deluded, not retarded.
Lets start nitpicking.
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).
Wiki
Quote:
"Obviously all murders are serious, but we're talking about a drug murder under ambiguous circumstances," he said. "This is just a very ordinary homicide, with a clearly mentally disabled defendant."
Let me rationalize, that rpofessor does not even understand that having a low IQ =/= being mentally deficient
Not to mention that IQ is a vague term and any IQ based test is based on logical-math based questions. Its not like maths or logic will determine if a person is retarded and thus in need of psychiatric care.
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Doomforge
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posted August 09, 2012 10:36 PM |
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Quote:
I dont think that being IQ 60 == Mentally retarded.
Again, it doesn't matter what you or I think on the matter. The Texas laws I cited state everyone below 70IQ qualifies for retardation. Those are the rules they set there, no? Opinions don't matter here. We're not debating on the subject of retardation boundaries.
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A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).
Wiki
Not sure what your point is.
Everything in this definition fits Breivik's manifest.
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Let me rationalize, that rpofessor does not even understand that having a low IQ =/= being mentally deficient
Not to mention that IQ is a vague term and any IQ based test is based on logical-math based questions. Its not like maths or logic will determine if a person is retarded and thus in need of psychiatric care.
See my answer above.
It doesn't matter what you or me believe in. According to law, he's retarded.
Should a retarded guy be subjected to death penalty?
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Seraphim
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posted August 10, 2012 12:14 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 00:16, 10 Aug 2012.
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Not sure what your point is.
Everything in this definition fits Breivik's manifest.
I disagree but breivik is another issue for another thread.
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Should a retarded guy be subjected to death penalty?
No because it is forbidden according to Texas laws. But then, laws are made by humans...
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Elodin
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posted August 10, 2012 07:18 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 07:21, 10 Aug 2012.
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The facts are:
1) Multiple tests showed Wilson to have an IQ of over 70 over the years. One test showed him lower.
2) The courts ruled that he was not retarded.
3) Texas determined he was not retarded.
4) Wilson's actions proved he was not retarded.
5) Wilson was a sly and crafty criminal.
6) Wilson served two terms in prison for robbery. (Actually he was on parole when he committed the murder.)
7) Wilson was a drug dealer.
8) Wilson kidnapped a man who snitched on him.
9) Wilson beat the snitch.
10) Wilson stripped the man naked and shot him in the head and in the neck.
11) Wilson dumped the body on a road to a refinery (not traveled much that time of the day.)
12) Wilson confessed his crime to multiple people.
13) Wilson, at his execution talked to his own family and ignored the family of the victim that had come to witness his execution. He had the opportunity at that time to express remorse for his crimes but did not.
Wilson was a cold blood career criminal who wanted revenge for the man snitching on him. He had already gone to prison twice on robbery conviction. A conviction as a drug dealer would be the third strike, meaning he would get a minimum sentence of 25 years + the time left on his probation for the second robbery. He figured he would get in his revenge before he went to prison. And he did. He just did not count on the death penalty.
Saying over and over that Wilson did not deserve the death penalty will change nothing and is only your wrong opinion on the matter. Texas and federal courts rejected claims of retardation because of multiple studies that showed he was not and because of Wilson's actions though the years proved he was not.
In my opinion and in the opinion of the state of Texas and in the opinion of the jury who convicted him Wilson was competent and deserved to be put to death.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 10, 2012 08:43 AM |
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Spoken like a true disciple of Jesus Christ.
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Seraphim
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posted August 10, 2012 11:21 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 11:26, 10 Aug 2012.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 10, 2012 11:44 AM |
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What I find amazing - generally, not specifically for this thread - is the FIRM OPINION on all kinds of things people have no connection with whatsoever.
I, for example, have an opinion on the death penalty in general, but not an absolute one. Meaning, while I tend to be generally against the death penalty as a means of justice, I accept that a majority of the society I live in may see this differently, especially for certain extremely heinous crimes. However, I would link certain prerequisites with a death penalty, because I do think, that it's better to leave 9 perps alive who "deserve" to die for their crimes in order to save 1 who doesn't, than killing 1 innocent in order to put 9 to their deserved death.
That is, death penalty should be - for me - possible only, if there wasn't a SHADOW of doubt.
But what I actually want to say is, I cannot understand how people who have absolutely NOTHING to do with a case at all, have such a firm opinion on whether a person would DESERVE to die. I'm reminded of the "thumbs-down" mentality of circus games of old in combination with the "eye-for-an-eye" justice which is certainly NOT what Christ preached.
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angelito
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posted August 10, 2012 01:19 PM |
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Quote:
...I'm reminded of the "thumbs-down" mentality of circus games of old in combination with the "eye-for-an-eye" justice which is certainly NOT what Christ preached.
But wasn't that exactly around the time when the bible was written? So what do you expect then....
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JollyJoker
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posted August 10, 2012 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
...I'm reminded of the "thumbs-down" mentality of circus games of old in combination with the "eye-for-an-eye" justice which is certainly NOT what Christ preached.
But wasn't that exactly around the time when the bible was written? So what do you expect then....
I underlined what I expect.
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Elodin
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posted August 10, 2012 08:05 PM |
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@JJ
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Spoken like a true disciple of Jesus Christ.
Yes, it was. By your backhanded insult I see you have no rational counters to my arguments.
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...I'm reminded of the "thumbs-down" mentality of circus games of old in combination with the "eye-for-an-eye" justice which is certainly NOT what Christ preached.
But wasn't that exactly around the time when the bible was written? So what do you expect then....
I underlined what I expect.
You lack a working knowledge of what Christ preached and what his apostles preached. And you lack any rational encounter to the facts that I posted and did not address them at all.
Both the Old and New Testament preach against personal vengeance. Punishment for crimes is to be left to the government according to both Testaments.
The government is to be a "terror" to evildoers according to the New Testament. It has the "power of the sword" to carry that out. Executions of criminals.
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Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil
Before you pass judgment on my Christianity you need to get a clue about Christianity and about what the Bible actually teaches because frankly you are sorely lacking in that department. Which is not surprising since you are an atheist and atheists quite often are ignorant about the religions that they love to condemn.
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Salamandre
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posted August 10, 2012 09:49 PM |
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I indeed think you are right, atheists know not much in detail about the bible, who can read it if he firmly believes it is fairy tale?
But the deep point is that atheists actually know what is about and most of them have respect for christians, because if there is one thing it amazes us, is the christians ability to advocate peace, good and humanity is every unimaginable situation. Of course we also know that there are christians and just opportunist christians, the second category using the bible as an hide out, they take what it serves them and ignore or subjectively interpret the other.
Suddenly the government has a power in the bible, to punish criminals and you throw some very vague phrase which is supposed to claim so. In hundred other situations, suddenly the government has not a single right to take over your freedom or decide of anything and of course, the corresponding phrase is in. This is why it is a so "complete" book, you find inside everything and its opposite. Not so hard to disable it using rationality, but then you will claim atheist have no idea what is rationality.
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Seraphim
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posted August 11, 2012 12:11 AM |
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