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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted April 30, 2011 08:02 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 08:05, 30 Apr 2011.
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Here you can selfdefence only with the same type weapon as the attacker, or you'll be the killer. If someone attack you with cold weapon, like a knife, you can defence your self only with a cold weapon too, so another knife, axe, hammer etc. works, but if you fire him with a gun, you go to jail. That's just idiotic.
Also you can't go in public with gun unless you are a cop or in the army, or some bodyguard with special rights thanks to your work, you can have only a knife with maximum length of 12 centimetres  in public. Of course noone is checking you even if you go out with a 2-hand sword
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted April 30, 2011 08:19 AM |
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Should people be allowed to carry fire arms?
Yes, ofc. Not allowing them to could potentially put them in more harm.
But id say there should be some kind of tests to prove that the person is responsible enough to own a gun.
Should people be allowed to have fire arms in their house?
Yes. That is IMO a very good place to store them in.
Not to mention how the gun would be in a close reach if someone tries to forcibly enter your house.
Does gun possession by an innocent person help prevent that person from being a victim?
Id say that depends on where you live.
in my country it's quite unlikely but I still like to be prepared 
Should a person have the right to defend himself or should everyone be forced to rely on the government alone for self defense?
The government is the worst means of self defense. They got nothing more than incompetence running.
In a real situation you would be more protected by a gun than by a government
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OHforfSake
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posted April 30, 2011 10:03 AM |
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I believe there's at least one major reason why you don't see home invaders using guns in certain countries very often. My apologies should it have been brought up before.
I think it's a matter of risk while traveling combined with higher level of punishment. If you perform a home invasion, without using a gun, or something of similar power, I'm pretty convinced there's a huge difference in how the court will judge, should you be caught.
Basicly, at some point, depends on your own situation, the risk of getting caught, the punishment you'd get, the difficulty of the target and the total gain, it simply is not WORTH it to bring a gun to a home invasion. The only situation where I can imagine it gets worth is, has nothing todo with the risk of getting caught, the punishment, or the total gain, because you're in such a bad situation already that no matter how difficult the target is, you're basicly forced to either bring a gun and go for it, or succumb.
That's not a problem with gun policy, but with a failure from the state to take proper care of all of its citizens. I might be mistaken, but is it not so, that USA is one of the few western countries in the world, where people actually can be poor like in non-western countries?
There will of course always be people who'll refuse all possibilities of help.
Now should people bring a gun anyway, despite it not making sense, then I'm pretty convinced it's either a psychopat, or some "kids" (can be of any age) who think it's all just "oh so fun". I think both of those are the unusual cases.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 30, 2011 10:19 AM |
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Quote:
I might be mistaken, but is it not so, that USA is one of the few western countries in the world, where people actually can be poor like in non-western countries?
You are mistaken. Unlike in poor countries, in the US, poverty is mostly a choice.
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Eccentric Opinion
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 30, 2011 10:27 AM |
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Quote:
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I don't see the need for guns, even if it is to defend your house and property, when doing something much simpler would be just as effective and won't entail murder charges.
something called "locking your door", heard of it?
How about a sign? Wouldn't that keep out the bad guys?
That would be completely missing the point.
But take a look, they are armed with UZI's, a automatic weapon of immense firepower.
They are wearing masks.
The fact they have uzis instead of knifes or normal guns implies that the gun enforcment is really lacks too.
I could point out even more faults too about the logic.
However, the problem is that you must first get the police AND the civilians to not carry not spread paranoia about firearms.
Just getting inn a "ban" would not work over night, it would take 10-20 years of slow cultural change if the cultural change was at a rapid rate.
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OHforfSake
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posted April 30, 2011 10:28 AM |
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Quote:
You are mistaken. Unlike in poor countries, in the US, poverty is mostly a choice.
Can you justify that statement?
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
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posted April 30, 2011 10:30 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I might be mistaken, but is it not so, that USA is one of the few western countries in the world, where people actually can be poor like in non-western countries?
You are mistaken. Unlike in poor countries, in the US, poverty is mostly a choice.
Example please.
I want something a bit tangible to read.
I can think of the fact that you can by accidnet move into the wrong place, and then be unable to get a job that pays more than just going on the dole.
Going on the dole or social security is by my definition included in "poverty".
Unless you are talking begger level, that is in roughly all cases self cuased.
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OHforfSake
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posted April 30, 2011 10:41 AM |
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Quote:
Unless you are talking begger level, that is in roughly all cases self caused.
The level of poverty I was refering to was one were said person at some point would either have to do something criminal (such as home invasion), or wouldn't survive.
What level that is, or how dependent it is on the environment around said person, I haven o clue.
I personally would just fint it awkward that some would go for home invasion, before social service (due to pride?). Though it's a different culture, so I suppose it could be the case. Then again, I might be all wrong and people don't commit home invasions, because they (at some point) have to do so, to survive. However, if that's the case, then something is really really odd, as I see it.
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Doomforge
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posted April 30, 2011 10:55 AM |
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Not to mention how the gun would be in a close reach if someone tries to forcibly enter your house.
Who would be stupid enough to go on a frontal assault against alarm-protected house? If you're not from mafia, you're pretty much safe.
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in my country it's quite unlikely but I still like to be prepared
No off, but I find this a bit paranoid. If someone is breaking in, I'd say it's either night and you're asleep, or you're on vacation somewhere. In both cases the gun will do you absolutely no good. It's as useless as a piece of metal.
But, if you have kids, and they somehow borrow your gun, there's a really big risk someone will die.
if there's no benefit, but a risk - why to take an action like getting a gun?
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In a real situation you would be more protected by a gun than by a government
In a real situation, provided you're from mafia or something, you'd be dead before thinking about your gun locked in a cabinet three rooms away.
I love it when people picture it like the movies: the big, stupid thug trying to break your door down, making so much noise it wakes up everyone on the street, and doing it so slowly you have time to get up, brush your teeth, have sex with your wife, take your gun and take a sniping position in front of the door. Then, the stupid meat shield busts in, and you headshot him to oblivion, then go to a happy sleep, having sex with your wife before that.
This is at best naive; Life ain't a movie; a scenario where you're absolutely unaware of someone breaking into your house is a trillion times more likely.
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Ohforfsake
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posted April 30, 2011 11:03 AM |
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I think Doom is right. Unless the intruder isn't going for your life to begin with (then why break in why you're even home? Unless no other alternative and no other target to choose..), or you expect said person to be incredible stupid (which would make you stupid as well..), then no way is a gun going to be sufficient defense, at all.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 30, 2011 11:05 AM |
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Ohforf and del_diablo:
Too many poor people spend their money on big-screen TVs and drugs instead of trying to get ahead - or at least budgeting wisely. I have shown in a previous topic that someone who makes $20,000 a year (and this is something that only very low-skilled immigrants and new entrants into the workforce make) can live without lacking any "essentials". Of course, that means no big-screen TV, no buying expensive clothes, and so on - but it's livable.
Ohforf:
You're assuming people are turning to crime because they're trying to make money.
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OHforfSake
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posted April 30, 2011 11:30 AM |
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Not quite. I'm assuming people originally turn to crime, in most cases, because that's what they percieve as their only option to survive.
Later on, they may be criminals out of habit (bad jail system putting them in the wrong environment, combined with being criminal is the only thing they "know" how to do, and feel comfortable with, etc.).
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Darkshadow
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posted April 30, 2011 11:31 AM |
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Quote:
No off, but I find this a bit paranoid. If someone is breaking in, I'd say it's either night and you're asleep, or you're on vacation somewhere. In both cases the gun will do you absolutely no good. It's as useless as a piece of metal.
But, if you have kids, and they somehow borrow your gun, there's a really big risk someone will die.
if there's no benefit, but a risk - why to take an action like getting a gun?
FYI I live alone and keep a gun at a very close reach when I sleep (and considering my house it is VERY unlikely that you could break in without making noise).
again it is very unlikely that anyone would try to break into your house in this country but you never know.
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OHforfSake
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posted April 30, 2011 11:36 AM |
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Why a gun then? Wouldn't installing something like the shops use to know when people enter be a better idea? (The little laser detector, when the laser is broken a bell rings). In stead of having a bell ringing though you can have yourself woken up, without the intruder knowing you're know awake. Heck there are probably a lot of other stuff that can be done.
If you've played counter strike, I am certain you know that it's more often about knowing where the target is, than who's best with their weapon and who's the best weapon. You've all the advantage, because the invader has to come to you, if you're truely scared of what might happen, isn't a gun not just false promise of safety, when in reality, what you need are tools to interact with your house, without the criminal being aware?
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 30, 2011 01:02 PM |
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Quote:
I'm assuming people originally turn to crime, in most cases, because that's what they percieve as their only option to survive.
Burglary isn't a good option for that. Suppose you break into someone's house and steal their TV. What do you do with it then? Sell it to a pawn shop? Put it on ebay? These options won't get you much money/are time-consuming/require other resources. Better to get a job at Wal-Mart or a fast food place.
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ohforfsake
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posted April 30, 2011 01:11 PM |
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Yes, but there may be a ton of reason why it's not possible to get a job, even there. Doesn't these kind of place not also only majorly hire teenagers, like yourself?
Of course you don't become rich by finding a diamond, because then you've to prove that it's a found diamond, not a stolen one, that you've rights to the area it was found in, etc., etc.
Further more, you don't go for heavy stuff, it is a huge risk for you, only someone truely desperate would do something like this, I would imagine.
Easy sellable, found in lots of quantities, and easy transportable, such as toiletpaper, that's your target.
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JoonasTo
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posted April 30, 2011 01:52 PM |
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Only in special cases. AKA, every single person has a gun. You, (the mugger) have no idea who has a faster draw than you. Thus, muggings go down. Problem is, not everyone has a gun...
Won't work this way. It would just change muggings to killings. If they know you have a gun they'd shoot you before you can do anything and only rob you after that.
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Doomforge
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posted April 30, 2011 02:39 PM |
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]Burglary isn't a good option for that. Suppose you break into someone's house and steal their TV. What do you do with it then? Sell it to a pawn shop? Put it on ebay? These options won't get you much money/are time-consuming/require other resources. Better to get a job at Wal-Mart or a fast food place.
I agree that burglary is risky, but saying that fast food is better for money is ridiculous.
Just by stealing someone's wallet, a pickpocket can get a few hundred bucks. For a simple hand movement. And how much do you get in mcdonalds for an hour, five bucks?
Stealing a plasma TV worth 2000$, along with money, jewlery, laptop, everything valuable - that's not a lot of money to you for a single night at "work"? let's even say it's a total of 5000$ - that's not much?
And obviously, theives won't pick a place where they can steal and old TV and a broken down PC.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted April 30, 2011 03:31 PM |
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That would be completely missing the point.
But take a look, they are armed with UZI's, a automatic weapon of immense firepower.
They are wearing masks.
The fact they have uzis instead of knifes or normal guns implies that the gun enforcment is really lacks too.
I could point out even more faults too about the logic.
However, the problem is that you must first get the police AND the civilians to not carry not spread paranoia about firearms.
Just getting inn a "ban" would not work over night, it would take 10-20 years of slow cultural change if the cultural change was at a rapid rate.
Why do some people want to say the problem is with the police and the citizens? The problem is with the criminals. If every person in the world had 35 guns each but each person were honest there would no problem.
The problem is not with the honest people who have guns. The problem is not with the "paranoia" of people who don't want to be raped or mugged or murdered. The problem is not with the victim of crime or potential victim of crime being armed. Honest people don't rob stores or break into homes either with or without guns. The problem is with the people who chose to prey on other people. The human predators. Criminals.
A ban of firearms is not the way to stop crime. The majority of crimes are committed by repeat offenders. The solution is to get tough on crime not to restrict the ability of honest citizens to defend themselves.
Locking your door will not stop a criminal from breaking into your house. A "no trespassing" sign will not stop a criminal from trespassing. Criminals do not respect your locks and signs.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted April 30, 2011 04:30 PM |
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Ban of firearms is pretty important to avoid people of getting false impression that they can defend with a puny gun.
Some have no clue and think pretty highly of themselves just because they have a shotgun tucked under their bed.
Not allowing such people to get that shotgun in the first place is actually better than explaining to them how useless this weapon is in their hands, as we see on an obvious example.
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