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| Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 40 ... 51 52 53 54 55 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 03:04 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 15:11, 18 Jul 2013.
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What an ignorance - ignoring someone because you don't want to understand their point. I wanted you to read my whole post before responding and you can't do that. No wonder I can't understand you - because you DON'T WANT TO DISCUSS.
Maybe this will work: it was two on one, I could DIE easily and still no matter how many guys there were I wouldn't want to use any weapons in such situation. So yeah, here you go - I can't "understand that BASIC of principles of survival", yet somehow I'm ALIVE after a fight knife vs. bare hands. Now read my previous post, please, and THEN respond to what I say.
Or maybe you really want to ignore me, but that would be just plain stupid.
fred said:
i started actually reading the rest of your post. you are obviously TROLLING, hobbit.
Of course, because when you say that you're ignoring me that doesn't mean you're ignoring me, and you obviously can't wait with responding before reading the whole thing. But no, nothing wrong here - I'm just trolling. Brilliant.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 03:17 PM |
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Of course you're not from Poland, Fred - and you're lucky because of that  You know, I'd rather be forced to buy a shotgun than to earn 500 $ per month. Care to trade places? 
Still...
Genetics, training and such, fine, but you do sleep, don't you? You go on vacations? You get distracted, or even catch a flu sometimes? You know that home robberies are USUALLY well-scouted before, precisely because the robbers a) want to rob you b) want to live through it c) don't want to go to jail, so they pick those exact moments that give THEM the advantage, and not you?
Which brings me to a point. Against a well-planned thievery, your gun is simply.. useless! If someone can go through your alarms and dogs, really, do you think he's that dumb to NOT prepare himself for a situation where he encounters an armed home owner?
And against not-well planned thievery, alarms and dogs should easily suffice to make them look for an easier target.
You said it yourself: you were robbed when you were on vacation. Was the gun/shotgun of any use?
I see no reason to troll you. I believe that guns are simply overrated in home defense. They fail against schemed robberies, and can only help vs. retards. And here I'd still put more faith in dogs and alarms, against retarded criminals they should work just as well. Your experience seems to back up my claims, ironically...
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 04:36 PM |
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To be honest you seem to have the same logic criminals have - "Kill before I get killed", "I have to look tough", "No one dares to fight me because I have a better weapon", "Fight fire with fire"... Seriously, it's like you WANT to act like criminal just to make sure you won't be the victim. And that's as sick as being one of them. If this discussion wasn't on the internet but rather in real life, in one room, I'd be too scared to even disprove your points - I'd rather just escape from this freaking place as quickly as possible before you get too angry.
I think your behaviour is one of the reasons why I think guns without permission should be banned.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 04:37 PM |
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Hobbit, there's a huge moral difference between using power to defend oneself and using it to attack others.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 04:46 PM |
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Sorry, definitely not in this case. The whole fred's logic is about "Do the same thing they do but more effectively". That's pretty much how e.g. mafia works, and that's where many crimes come from.
When I see posts like that, I wonder when someone would actually ask the government to legalize tanks.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 04:53 PM |
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Quote:
The whole fred's logic is about "Do the same thing they do but more effectively".
Criminals breathe oxygen and eat food, so is it bad to do that too?
Criminals do many things. Some of them are armed, but the central problem with them is that they're aggressive - they take what's not theirs, and destroy other things. As long as you're not doing that, you can be as powerful as you like, but not dangerous except to those who threaten you. And that's fine.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 18, 2013 05:46 PM |
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Hobbit said:
"Do the same thing they do but more effectively".
I don't think there is something wrong with that. A weapon is a symbol of virility, like having a big organ, a big car, a big house or dating a top model. There is nothing wrong with men trying to affirm their virility using every available tool, it is and it always was their nature. Survival is also natural, like properly adapting to a threat. If you are threated with a weapon, better you have a better weapon and act quicker, it is survival. Denying this will lead you in grave, or you live in poney's land.
My disapproval about weapons legalized is that they may affect the aggressive chemical level in our brain, by suggesting us that we are invincible or close to. For 10 sensed and responsible humans, you find 200 who just can't control themselves then go berserk or have their natural inhibitions tweaked, like Zimmerman. A society allowing guns is a society which will have to deal with tremendous and brutal criminality then economical issues at long term. Because humans are very unpredictable and dangerous by nature.
Give them the proper tools and they will bite the bait.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2013 05:53 PM |
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Quote:
Criminals do many things. Some of them are armed, but the central problem with them is that they're aggressive - they take what's not theirs, and destroy other things. As long as you're not doing that, you can be as powerful as you like, but not dangerous except to those who threaten you.
I'm sorry, I can't believe that being aggressive and dangerous to those who threaten you will be a good solution. My experience says something completely different - that it's actually provoking them to become even more aggressive and even more dangerous.
But I already said that.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 19, 2013 05:08 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 14:11, 19 Jul 2013.
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All:
Let us please remember the Code of Conduct rules about provocative posting. There is no reason to respond to posts in a hostile way. Before you whip off an agitated post: take a breath, close your eyes, and think of butterflies and the smell of fresh-baked chocolate chip cookies. Then your words will be music instead of thunder.
EDIT:
Fred, your very next post completely ignored what I wrote above. Feeling provoked does not invite you to provoke in return.
So let's try this again: please remember that this is just a forum dedicated to a computer game and there is no need for combative, insulting language. If you are angry with someone, simply not posting at all is the best way to deal with that anger. Otherwise, I will have to penalize both of you for breaches of the Code of Conduct.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 02:16 PM |
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ok, corribus. so you deleted my post, where i was explaining myself. and yet, none of hobbit's posts are deleted? he clearly is provoking me. but whatever. that post you deleted was the most polite way i could respond to such deliberate provocation, since nothing was done.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 19, 2013 02:35 PM |
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You are free to send any explanation you want via HCM. It has no place here. A general warning about provocation has been issued and that should settle it. Now let's get back on topic, please.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 07:58 PM |
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Since, I'm not Mr. Shiny Happy People myself, I feel comfortable to say this, you DO have a temper Fred. According to statistics, almost anybody who kills people with guns are already criminals and it's seldomly seen that a regular guy with a temper shoots you in the heart just because he's pissed. Still, I think people with a temper should think twice before getting a gun.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 08:28 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 20:35, 19 Jul 2013.
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fred said:
i didn't, and NOWHERE did it say i did. i just walked during the entire thing
fred earlier said:
hey continued after me, and i was about to pull my knife again, now getting really angry at their persistence, when i saw a 4th guy, who was coming to the right of me, and THIS one had a gun in his hand. i was able to get to my car and get out of there safely
fred said:
i didn't lay a hand on ANY of them in the entire altercation, and NOWHERE in that post does it state otherwise
fred earlier said:
instead, he put the tire iron back(not sure why), and advanced on me with his friends, empty-handed. that's when i remembered i had a butterfly knife in the little pocket in the front of my jeans. without them noticing, i pulled it out, and opened it quietly behind my back(something i had never done until then). i had the blade ready, just behind my pantleg, still out of sight. he came closer, and i was going to ram the blade into his stomach, and rip upward. then i realized what i was about to do, as he only had to take 3 more steps to be in range. so, i let them see the knife. he and his 2 hoodlum buddies came to an immediate halt, and backed up quickly.
fred said:
i did not. they provoked ME and MY GROUP by following US.
Actually let me quote Corribus here:
Corribus said:
Feeling provoked does not invite you to provoke in return.
fred said:
and i didn't fight anyone, i merely stood my ground.
And that's what provoking is actually. Why didn't you leave with your step-brother or anywhere else? Standing like nothing's wrong doesn't mean you're acting bravely - that actually means that YOU want to fight them, because, the hell, why would you want to stay there anyway? Did you have ANY reason to NOT leave apart from still fighting these guys?
That's not how self-defense works - that's what provoking is.
fred said:
does a nervous person STAND HIS GROUND when threatened by people, when he has a chance to run?
This has nothing to do with being nervous or not.
fred earlier said:
they continued after me, and i was about to pull my knife again, now getting really angry at their persistence
This, however, has.
I'm afraid if it wasn't about that one hood having a gun, you'd kill someone and be in an even bigger trouble right now.
fred said:
in your story, you didn't run. you were surprised by the hoods, and you were sitting down when he put a knife to your neck, so YOU couldn't run
I actually could just after he pulled his knife back. I didn't because of my gf - this is were they started to beat me up seriously. In advance, however, it's THEM who ran away - it's because some people saw the whole accident and tried to catch them. After that I just stood there bleeding and hugging my gf for a minute until some woman asked me if I want to go to the police station.
So in the end they escaped, I did not, I had no weapon, and I'd regret it if I had any weapon. THAT would be an instant death for me. Not having any weapon saved my life.
fred said:
at the end of the altercation, i still did not run. i merely walked back out to my car, and left.
Yeah, because one of your enemies had better weapon. So you actually retreated. Semantics.
Of course - you're not stupid, so in the very end you did the right thing, but your story doesn't prove that you needed a gun to protect yourself. It actually proves that if you're responding to someone provoking you and trying to fight him just because he annoys you, you'll eventually get into more trouble anyway. That's where banning guns is actually a pretty good thing - it gives less opportunities to get involved into a real fight, and that's where more murders come from.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 08:29 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:30, 19 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
do you still think someone like me should think twice before owning a gun?
I don't know, owning a gun is an irregular situation for me by itself. Ask a yankee
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 09:29 PM |
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Fred, no offense, but you're the last guy I'd give a gun to, seeing that you literally take stuff written on a gaming forum extremely personally and you'll write very long and insulting posts at the very sight of provocation, even if there isn't any and you just misread or misunderstood the poster you're answering. Then again, I wouldn't give you a kitchen knife either, and those obviously shouldn't be banned
Either way, I don't think that emotions are a good argument for banning of guns. Family tragedies happen a lot when someone just grabs a kitchen knife and stabs someone in fury. Guns are not necessary because (in my 100% personal opinion) they are useless unless you actually aim to kill the "threat" at first occasion. If you ever attend to combat seminars, like Krav Maga seminars, you'll learn why - simply threatening a guy with a weapon rarely works. If you pull a weapon, you need to be 100% sure you're going to use it. No pretending.
If you don't want to kill... like me... better find a different way.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted July 19, 2013 11:14 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 23:14, 19 Jul 2013.
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fred said:
you said that i was beating these guys up. THAT'S why i repeated that i didn't lay a hand on them. and btw, "i was going to ram the blade" doesn't mean actually DOING anything.
First of all: where did I say that? Oh, you mean when I said that you WANTED to beat them up? Well, you did say that you wanted to attack them. And, you know, saying "I just wanted to kill them, but I didn't, so I'm a normal guy" isn't really helping you.
fred said:
they obviously wanted to fight, i did not. i was just watching them, like i would a nature show, or an animal. it was interesting, i found myself intrigued by their behavior, up until they thought it would be a good idea to try and fight ME.
...what's wrong with you? You were watching a fight involving your stepbrother (not just some violence) as it was something interesting? I mean... Not only just you didn't care about the whole situation (yeah, pretty common thing to let someone see your knife in self-defense, of course), but you were actually WAITING for them up until they attacked you! Of course, like you didn't expect that.
And that's what I name PROVOKING. Seriously, you just wanted them to fight you, whatever the reason was. You can take it personally, I'm sorry,
Imagine this: you got beaten up by some guys. Some of them go away after that but there's one guy who's just looking at you like you were some animal in zoo. Would you be quiet in such situation? I'm not suggesting that you would attack him, but think about it - would you really not consider attacking him just because he's standing here and watching you? Would you think that you're interesting for him or that he wants to fight you?
To be honest, I would be really pissed off in such situation. Even if I wouldn't try to fight him, I still would be angry.
fred said:
notice how, even though i had the absolute ability(and chance) to gut the main aggressor, that i did not.
I wasn't stabbed by these guys who attacked me, even though they had the absolute ability and chance to do so. Are you going to justify them just because I'm alive?
fred said:
if i had had a gun in that incident, i might have indeed been killed. but so might've they.
You'd be either dead or still in trouble.
DoomForge said:
Family tragedies happen a lot when someone just grabs a kitchen knife and stabs someone in fury.
That's actually harder to do than to pull a trigger. That's why using gun is the most common suicide method and, apparently, the most common murder method.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 20, 2013 07:01 AM |
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Hobbit, fred, I believe this line of discussion between the two of you has reached the end of its relevance to the thread's topic and the limit of its ability to provide entertainment to the community. Mostly, I do not care for the hostile turn it has taken. If you want to continue discussing this, please do so over HCM. Otherwise, please return to the topic of gun control.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 08, 2013 02:24 AM |
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i deleted most of my posts here. what i left, were the statements that had to be said. it looks like neither side reaches the other, on certain subjects.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 08, 2013 03:09 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 03:09, 08 Aug 2013.
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fred, and this goes to everyone, for the sake of the community, please do not delete large tracts of old posts from threads. All this does is make it virtually impossible to understand the line of conversation for anyone who wants to go back and read it. We've had users do this before and it just makes an absolute mess of things. It also shows a complete lack of respect for community members who spend time engaging in a conversation and may like to have a record of that effort here.
There is no mechanism, of course, to prevent you from engaging in this behavior (other than the block on editing posts older than 1 year). Therefore I'm asking as a favor to me for you to refrain from doing this kind of wanton destruction. Appealing to your sense of honor and respect, as it were.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 08, 2013 03:37 AM |
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Quote:
We've had users do this before
Oh forfy.
Surely the new quote system would counter the core negatives of mass post deletion.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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