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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 26, 2012 09:55 PM |
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Thing is, once you've went past making a char (and a proper build), all that's left is right/left clicking 
And the only thing you've to do to beat any computer games is to hit the right combination of buttons at any specific moment in time.
The only thing you've to do to accomplish anything you want is doing the right things at the right time.
Statement like mine and yours are oversimplifying because they do not actually yield any information about the environment of the task. If you told me I could beat diablo by right/left clikcing with a "correct" made character, I'd be in no better state at beating the game.
Further more, it depends wildly on playing style. Going from normal act1 and through normal, nightmare and finally standing on top of baal's corpse in the world stone chamber in act 5 at hardcore hell difficulty after 4.5 hours of playing time is something that does not allow for the same playing style that allows you to complete the game with nothing but a hired merchant doing everything for you in a couple of months, while your own character runs around having spend no skills, no stats and aren't using any items.
No matter the simplicity of a game you can always add subjective layers of complexity, meaning you can make anything challenging, if you want to.
As an example, captain comic is what I often percieve as my first game. I replayed it in marts 2009 and I wasn't very good at it. I hadn't figured out the patterns of opposing monsters yet and it took 7 tries before I completed the game.
Later on, I could complete the game without shooting any monsters, which is quite a bit more challenging. Then that became to easy.
I managed to complete the game with the minimum amount of items possible. Which was quite difficult, because it more or less required memorising three areas that required you to jump on platforms, all three completely dark, and only through retry after retry would I come closer.
Finally I completed the game not only without shooting any monsters, but without exterminating any monsters (in other words, not getting hit or hitting anything at all), which I found the most challenging of all and most satisfying way to complete the game, as it coresponded best to my own world view.
In any case. The game, which I once found difficult, became very easy with practice. I found my own challenges, which of course interested me or there wouldn't have been much point in it, and thereby the game became more difficult, despite it being the same game.
Finally, talking about proper character play in diablo, I'd like to add you should not use left click much, if at all. It's the "stupid" button you'd want to set on throwing with no throwing weapon (unless being a Paladin and even then that's often adviceable for hardcore play).
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 07:38 AM |
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What part of it is mindless when you have to calculate every frigging thing from every single stat and skill point, item crafts, cube recipes, runewords to clvl, itlvl, item drop possibilty, block and attack animation frames, skill synergies and everything? It is an extremely complicated game. You can of course ignore all the strategic aspects of the game that actually constitute the whole game and just dive into the enemies clicky clicky, not minding anything. But then you would end up calling the game "mindless" and "boring".
If those are complicated things to you, I'd suggest to check some P&P RPGs 
Besides, I did not mean the mechanical complexness, or the lack of it. Merely the plot which is shallow like a puddle.
Yes DF, you did not mean, because "Diablo is a mindless click-fest so calling it 'one of the best games ever made' is quite a bit over the top." are not your words, they are Zenofex's! And mine was an answer to him, see my Zenofex quotation in the original post? 
So, DF and Zenofex are the same person, then. Good to know. Like the Renegade and Paragon aspects of Shepard.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 08:24 PM |
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You're telling me I've been arguing with myself all the time in the OSM?  What would that make me, a Duke? 
anyway, enough OT about my supposed doppelganger guys - like it or not this is not VW
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And the only thing you've to do to beat any computer games is to hit the right combination of buttons at any specific moment in time.
I disagree. In many games, you have to think before doing that. In diablo 2, you are free of thinking most of the time because nothing can hurt you and you kill monsters instantly (or all of the screen instantly) with a properly build character. Which means you can totally shut off your brain and just click blindly - you'll still get through the fight in one piece
Now, try the same in a game where you need a little strategy, too... you'll fail.
I still love Diablo series, though - I enjoy the carnage. It's still pretty mindless.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 27, 2012 08:58 PM |
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In many games, you have to think before doing that.
That's fair, if you'd formulated it like that originally, then I'd not have made a comment like that. So you think diablo is too easy because you're too good, is a completely fair subjective analysis.
Anyway, I'll still nitpick a little. I hope you won't mind.
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In diablo 2, you are free of thinking most of the time because nothing can hurt you and you kill monsters instantly (or all of the screen instantly) with a properly build character.
Hmmm, no, I really don't agree with that. I mean unless you "hack" up your character, but I kind of think that's doubtful knowing you and all.
Anyway, I'll assume that you're actually talking about b.net here where you can easy trade for "good" items and you're talking about those high end runewords and stuff and the common cookie cutter builds such as meteorber, hammerdin, summoner, etc. Also you're only talking about pvm (players versus monsters) and not pvp (player vs. player).
In other words I imagine the best possible preparation, character wise, but an otherwise regular player.
Of course you're talking about "most of the time" and that in itself could mean a lot of things depending on how you actually play. If you stand in town 90% of the game, or if you just play carefully enough, then sure, you're right. After all you can just teleport what you can't hurt and can hurt you or what hurts you badly.
But then you go on and say that "nothing can hurt you" and monsters are killed instantly. Now it's true there exists builds where by far most things can hurt you, but unless you're quite an experienced player, I doubt you know about these builds. These builds are not cookie cutter builds.
Things that wills till hurt you, actually "instant" kill you and any character no matter if you up your hit points to 20000, get 75% blocking and 50% damage reduction would be a pack of claw vipers that spawn in nihaltak's vault. A combination with fanatiscm/might/concentration plus extra strong and then whatever extra mod you want, is something any REGULAR person would fail at. Why? Because it's a trap and it's not an obvious trap, but it's a common encounter for anyone who are going to complete the entire game.
The reason these things are so dangerous are because they're believed to be bugged, despite Blizzard not wanting to do anything about them. They deal damage every frame (25 attacks pr. second) and their damage attack is invisible. There are ways to get around this, but it requires knowledge of how their attack actually works, something you won't have before it's too late, unless you actually go to forums to prepare, which is nothing the REGULAR player would do, so even using a lot of common sense, this is a situation where someone can't "think" themselves out of, here it's not a mindless click fest, here you actually hardly have a chance of surviving.
Of course there are easier yet dangerous encounters, such as the typical archer pack on hell, aura enchanted + extra strong + multiple shot and your 6000 hit points 75% blocking and 50% damage reduced hammerdin will die quickly, while not able to actually simply teleport in and start creating a hammer zone, because
1) teleport on top == stun locked for a few frames
2) during stun lock every archer runs a little bit away
Now you've to target each of these archers one at a time. But you're already rather low on health.
Even the more sane approach such as charging, not teleporting, around and creating a hammerfield is so dependent on no lag on b.net that it's still a "suicide" mission.
Of course these monsters aren't in any way invisible for a hammerdin, but even for a top end hammerdin an opponent like these should be approached with caution.
If we move a little further up in difficulty, the typical cookie cutter builds, which does not use physical melee damage, due to these attacks often being single target attacks, are the only option for doing stuff like übers, etc for the REGULAR player.
There are players who are smart, who apply revive from rare runewords and therefore suddenly can do these quests with, let's say, a sorcerers, but this is not something the regular user who doesn't even know urdars have crushing blow would, or how crushing blow works, would think about applying.
Further more, the idea that you'll kill anything instantly is completely incorrect. Unless you just ignore immunities, hell difficulty, pandomium/ubers "quest", etc.
The standard monster in hell difficulty have around 30000 hit point. The standard damage of a top end pvp hammerdin (which is known particular for the high damage) deals around 25000 damage pr. hammer. In other words, the hammerdin wouldn't insta kill an area, it'd take the ability to create a hammerfield, each attack taking about 8 frames, so we're talkinb about more than half a second to create this field. Half a second is a long time in diablo 2. It's certainly not instantly and it certainly doesn't remove the entire area.
There's actually only one build that does that, removing an entire area at once. If you want it to do it on hell you've to exploit a bug, i.e. creating a character which wasn't intended by blizzard.
This bug is about using runewords that apply damaging auras, holy fire and holy shock (and if you want holy freeze, with 3 auras you can damage anything not über related). Then you exploit a lame bug so you have multiple auras on top of eachother, do this for ~30 minutes and you hit the maximum damage output the game can register in a single frame before it rolls over (~90000 damage, diablo on hell has about 500000 hit points, btw.)
Now you can walk around and kill entire areas instantly.. except those who've more hit point than you can damage in a single attack (not counting poison and multiple no next delay attacks), and yet each aura pulse is ~50 frames, or ~2 seconds, so if you want to actually clear every place you go, you've to stand still for 2 second. Imagine that, move ~25 yards, stand still, move, stand still, move, stand still, and all you get in return are monsters falling left and right using a build that most people don't know about is possible and was never intended for the game.
So either your memory of the game is quite false (or did you play in v.1.09, that's before 2004? In that case you'd be quite correct), or you're seriously underestimating the actual difficulty.
It's true the game is not particular difficult, it really doesn't take much consideration, but it takes some consideration, after all, and the most tricky part is because it's so easy throughout many parts, the difficult parts may really take you by surprise. It's easier to be ready if you always see the danger, this game can put you to sleep and bam the next challenge you underestimated too much.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 27, 2012 10:16 PM |
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Things that wills till hurt you, actually "instant" kill you and any character no matter if you up your hit points to 20000, get 75% blocking and 50% damage reduction would be a pack of claw vipers that spawn in nihaltak's vault. A combination with fanatiscm/might/concentration plus extra strong and then whatever extra mod you want, is something any REGULAR person would fail at. Why? Because it's a trap and it's not an obvious trap, but it's a common encounter for anyone who are going to complete the entire game.
1. they are bugged and never fixed, like you noticed yourself. Just like mana burning monsters that burn 256 times more mana that they should (on hell mode) because someone used one line too much in coding.
2. A spell like dim vision or cloak of shadows disables non-unique vipers permanently
3. They have 50% chance (iirc) of spawning in a single location of the game in a single difficulty setting. So they consist of what, 0.01% of the game or something? it's like saying mice are typically white since white mice exist.
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Of course there are easier yet dangerous encounters, such as the typical archer pack on hell, aura enchanted + extra strong + multiple shot and your 6000 hit points 75% blocking and 50% damage reduced hammerdin will die quickly, while not able to actually simply teleport in and start creating a hammer zone, because
1) teleport on top == stun locked for a few frames
2) during stun lock every archer runs a little bit away
Now you've to target each of these archers one at a time. But you're already rather low on health.
Even the more sane approach such as charging, not teleporting, around and creating a hammerfield is so dependent on no lag on b.net that it's still a "suicide" mission.
Suicide what? My friend's botdin (and it's a stupid bot) never died for two months. He constantly runs WSK. So, you're exagerrating. proper execution of teleport -> hammers = most things dead before first projectile hits you. Hint: fast left click solves again.
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If we move a little further up in difficulty, the typical cookie cutter builds, which does not use physical melee damage, due to these attacks often being single target attacks, are the only option for doing stuff like übers, etc for the REGULAR player.
Actually, unless you consider casting lifetap from a wand on ubers a very strategical thing, it's really easy for almost any build that can utilize 1-point wonder that multi-attacks. Add some crushing blow on cheap gear, voila.
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Further more, the idea that you'll kill anything instantly is completely incorrect. Unless you just ignore immunities, hell difficulty, pandomium/ubers "quest", etc.
The standard monster in hell difficulty have around 30000 hit point. The standard damage of a top end pvp hammerdin (which is known particular for the high damage) deals around 25000 damage pr. hammer. In other words, the hammerdin wouldn't insta kill an area, it'd take the ability to create a hammerfield, each attack taking about 8 frames, so we're talkinb about more than half a second to create this field. Half a second is a long time in diablo 2. It's certainly not instantly and it certainly doesn't remove the entire area.
Hey, wanna try out my chars?
My summoner after teleport has 17 skeletons that do iirc 2000 damage per hit after all the auras (pride/fana/might) and a merc that does iirc 3000-9000 damage per hit. Now if we add amplify damage that's 40000x2 = 80000 damage in a single teleport, way more than you actually need to kill a monster. Now if you consider that another body will be right next to it in a matter of seconds since those skeletons will instantly kill whatever is near them, and that those two bodies will produce a corpse explosion that will wipe out the entire screen (empowered by both amplify damage and conviction aura from merc's infinity - it's half physical, half fire...) - yes, I'm pretty confident about killing stuff with a single "hit" of sort.
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There's actually only one build that does that, removing an entire area at once. If you want it to do it on hell you've to exploit a bug, i.e. creating a character which wasn't intended by blizzard.
This bug is about using runewords that apply damaging auras, holy fire and holy shock (and if you want holy freeze, with 3 auras you can damage anything not über related). Then you exploit a lame bug so you have multiple auras on top of eachother, do this for ~30 minutes and you hit the maximum damage output the game can register in a single frame before it rolls over (~90000 damage, diablo on hell has about 500000 hit points, btw.)
Aura stacking was fixed in 1.13
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So either your memory of the game is quite false (or did you play in v.1.09, that's before 2004? In that case you'd be quite correct), or you're seriously underestimating the actual difficulty.
It's true the game is not particular difficult, it really doesn't take much consideration, but it takes some consideration, after all, and the most tricky part is because it's so easy throughout many parts, the difficult parts may really take you by surprise. It's easier to be ready if you always see the danger, this game can put you to sleep and bam the next challenge you underestimated too much.
The game is trivially easy for me. My chars are dreamer and skelemancer. Both are powergamed to the extreme and (imho) the ultimate PvM classes.
I don't do PvP, tho. it's just not fun to me. It's basically based on maphack&namelock, and even if we ignore the cheaters and dupers, there's still the issue of running around for 5 mins hoping to namelock a guy with a lucky teleport. "Fun". whee.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 27, 2012 11:26 PM |
bonus applied by Doomforge on 28 Jan 2012. |
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I understand you might dislike my examples, and I'd like to discuss further about them, because I like discussing the game.
However before doing that, I'd just like to point that you wrote:
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nothing can hurt you and you kill monsters instantly
Seeing how you could actually relate to my examples, I'm quite convinced that you know that there's not "nothing that can hurt you" despite how well you've made your character and that you can't kill any given monster instantly.
That was really all I disliked about your last post.
Like I wrote, it's completely fair that you find the game too easy for you, but that doesn't make it a mindless click fest objectively speaking. Imagine if I said the same about, let's say Supaplex. I'm quite certain you'd not agree that it's an easy game, but it's completely possible that for me, subjectively, the game would be that easy.
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A spell like dim vision or cloak of shadows disables non-unique vipers permanently
Dim Vision yes. Though it still doesn't work against the unique pack leader. Or against any in a fanatic/champion pack. Still a summonmancer is probably the safest character you can play in this game, so as long as you've a way of teleport these monsters won't be a problem, but if you don't dim vision ahead, let your summons run loosely and/or hit a nasty specific pack, you might risk having to retreat and regroup (i.e. resummon and rehire your merc).
Cloak of Shadows, well despite it works identical to Dim Vision, the spell timer means it requires practice, otherwise you risking having opposing units you can't shut down immediatedly.
In any case, the typical way to deal with non-target monsters such as these, are to ignore them. Just teleport by. That's what bots do as well, btw. But of course if you really want to, any well made character can defeat such an encounter, it might just require some "work".
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hey have 50% chance (iirc) of spawning in a single location of the game in a single difficulty setting. So they consist of what, 0.01% of the game or something? it's like saying mice are typically white since white mice exist.
Yes, but my point was not they were something you'd often meet. If I may it seem that way, I formulated myself badly. My point is that it's a group of monsters which exists, that can kill you no matter your defenses, if you do not know what you're going in to.
When I write regular player, I imagine a person who have only played through the game very few amounts of times, and if multiple times, then said person have been rushed and have thereby not met this challenge before. Unless you know what you're up against, you risk easily hitting the "invisible machine gun" which these monsters attack often has been described like.
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My friend's botdin (and it's a stupid bot) never died for two months. He constantly runs WSK.
Yes, but despite WSK being act 5 hell and archers like those I described are something you find in the pit hell (where you want to clear the entire area), you'll not find something this deadly in this final area in act 5 hell. Unless you haven't given your build sufficient resist against the black gloams, but that'd be a fault in character build.
The bot doesn't clear entire areas, unless it's quite an unordinary bot, it teleports straight to the final area, clear the few monsters there (stuff like Frenzy Mino's, Oblivion Knights, Dolls and Gloams are bad news for many characters, but not for the typical hammerdin) and takes down the spawns. Every spawn in that area is easy for a hammerdin and as such, you can use a bot for this.
You can't use a hammerdin bot to take down the pits, unless you give it instruction to recognize and deal with certain archer packs in specific ways.
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Actually, unless you consider casting lifetap from a wand on ubers a very strategical thing, it's really easy for almost any build that can utilize 1-point wonder that multi-attacks. Add some crushing blow on cheap gear, voila.
I didn't understand what you meant by this reply (I understand the game details and yes they're correct), until I realised I'd miswritten what I wanted to write. I wanted to write that the typical cookie cutter won't apply for übers for the average player exactly because these character types do not use single target melee attacks.
And because of this, stuff like life tap is useless, because you can't heal without a physical non-speel attack. That's why I wrote about revive charges, etc.
In any case, the point that these typical characters need to make serious change to their typical gameplay to take down this area clearly display that it's not a game where nothing can take you down.
PS: Since you clearly is not a regular gamer, tactics such as life tap wands is not something that a regular player would be aware of, or that you even can get charges of life tap, but not e.g. mind blast.
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Now if we add amplify damage that's 40000x2 = 80000 damage in a single teleport, way more than you actually need to kill a monster. Now if you consider that another body will be right next to it in a matter of seconds since those skeletons will instantly kill whatever is near them, and that those two bodies will produce a corpse explosion that will wipe out the entire screen (empowered by both amplify damage and conviction aura from merc's infinity - it's half physical, half fire...) - yes, I'm pretty confident about killing stuff with a single "hit" of sort.
Yes, a summoner is very very safe and can deal a huge amount of damage, but it's certainly not instantly. If we ignore the attack speed of summons, each summon still only attack once pr. 30 frames, which we'll just call 25 frames and thereby once pr. second.
Corpse explosion is awesome, but is more of a speed up skill, because it makes the "boring" 1 second pr. monster in an entire area into a few seconds and then you can move on. Still this in no way instant, and a summoner is actually known for being one of the slower characters. So if you think this is instantly, you'd try some other characters, in my opinion.
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Aura stacking was fixed in 1.13
No it was not. They just fixed one way of doing it. It took 5 days and a new method was out.
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My chars are dreamer and skelemancer. Both are powergamed to the extreme and (imho) the ultimate PvM classes.
Those are also extremely cookie cutters, though since you said with the right made characters and that includes items, it doesn't stand against your point. I just think it you think the game is too easy after having played through it with two of the safest known characters using items acquired through trading on b.net and applied a bot for further items, that you should tell you base your conclusion about the game on something which doesn't require skills to play.
Had you played with something that actually require skills to complete, such as the following untwinked characters which are all perfectly able to complete the game in a reasonable way, I think your opinion would be different:
Strafezon (no javelin and spears)
Dtalon/Dtail-sin (no traps)
Zerkerbarb (no whirlwind)
Werewolf/Shock Wave werebear+grizzly (No elemental skills)
Poison & Bone Necro (No summons, apart from Golems)
Vengeancedin/Converterdin/Healer (No blessed hammers)
Enchantress (melee sorc)
All of these characters are perfectly possible to deal with any situation the game has to offer, but you've to think and make a tactic againt a lot of different situations for these characters to work. If you just go into a mob in hell with the given characters, its stats and skills identical to one who can play it, any mob in hell will tear you apart, because of lack of knowledge of how to actually apply the character. That's when the game is not a mindless click fest and we're talking about around 50% of viable characters.
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I don't do PvP, tho. it's just not fun to me. It's basically based on maphack&namelock, and even if we ignore the cheaters and dupers, there's still the issue of running around for 5 mins hoping to namelock a guy with a lucky teleport. "Fun". whee.
Please don't take this offensive, but my guess is that you're actually no good at pvp.
PvP in diablo is not about being offensive at all, though that's how people will find success originally, because less experienced players go into PvP without being ready.
So there's no "lucky" teleport, it's all about applying your characters ability to the possible points where you want to duel to happen and lure your opponent there. About taking advantage of the weak battle.net server, about finding your opponents weakness and strength, so if you lose the first battle, for the next battle you'll have optimized your character even more against this specific target.
Namelock won't help, really, because it allows for sudden teleport on top, far aiming of skills (such as homing skills like bone spirit and guided arrow) and crazy offensive teleport, neither of all of these things will be any good in a pvp match against an experienced opponent, because they all leave you weak, not strong.
Of course there are the crazy cheats where you've to actually exploit how badly made pvp is and go all bad mannered, so far casting charged strikes actually won't harm you, because you have 95% resist + 40% absorb + integer absorb. But in those matches, suddenly amazons and sorcerers are worthless in pvp (which is a bit ironic considering how they were the best choices in 1.09, at least in classic diablo).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 28, 2012 12:39 AM |
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Like I wrote, it's completely fair that you find the game too easy for you, but that doesn't make it a mindless click fest objectively speaking. Imagine if I said the same about, let's say Supaplex. I'm quite certain you'd not agree that it's an easy game, but it's completely possible that for me, subjectively, the game would be that easy.
Not really. Opinion is one thing, statistics are another. If most people have no problems with finishing Diablo2 (which is true), this means it's an easy game. That can't be said about supaplex because most people can't get past the first few levels, yet alone all 111 of them.
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Unless you know what you're up against, you risk easily hitting the "invisible machine gun" which these monsters attack often has been described like.
Whatever it might be, it's a bug. A bug = not intended by the devs = shouldn't be used as any sort of example. It's like saying a (normally hard) shooter's easy because devs forgot to delete the debug gun that does 99999999 damage points from your starting equipment. Pointless.
For non-bugged creatures, I am fairly sure: with proper (i.e. perfect) gear, you can pretty much leftclick through the game blindfolded and never die.
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The bot doesn't clear entire areas, unless it's quite an unordinary bot, it teleports straight to the final area, clear the few monsters there (stuff like Frenzy Mino's, Oblivion Knights, Dolls and Gloams are bad news for many characters, but not for the typical hammerdin) and takes down the spawns. Every spawn in that area is easy for a hammerdin and as such, you can use a bot for this.
You can't use a hammerdin bot to take down the pits, unless you give it instruction to recognize and deal with certain archer packs in specific ways.
You mean the Pit from act 1? The 87 ilvl zone? The monsters there have pretty lame damage and HP compared to act 5 versions, no matter how stacked they are they are simply no threat.
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I didn't understand what you meant by this reply (I understand the game details and yes they're correct), until I realised I'd miswritten what I wanted to write. I wanted to write that the typical cookie cutter won't apply for übers for the average player exactly because these character types do not use single target melee attacks.
And because of this, stuff like life tap is useless, because you can't heal without a physical non-speel attack. That's why I wrote about revive charges, etc.
In any case, the point that these typical characters need to make serious change to their typical gameplay to take down this area clearly display that it's not a game where nothing can take you down.
PS: Since you clearly is not a regular gamer, tactics such as life tap wands is not something that a regular player would be aware of, or that you even can get charges of life tap, but not e.g. mind blast.
So you're saying that the event they added a good 9 years after the initial release (because the game was so easy they pretty much had to - people were demanding challenge all the time) is a proof that the generic Diablo gameplay isn't easy? uhh. I don't really see the point of this.
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Yes, a summoner is very very safe and can deal a huge amount of damage, but it's certainly not instantly. If we ignore the attack speed of summons, each summon still only attack once pr. 30 frames, which we'll just call 25 frames and thereby once pr. second.
Corpse explosion is awesome, but is more of a speed up skill, because it makes the "boring" 1 second pr. monster in an entire area into a few seconds and then you can move on. Still this in no way instant, and a summoner is actually known for being one of the slower characters. So if you think this is instantly, you'd try some other characters, in my opinion.
I don't know where did you come with that slower character, lol. Ever tried it? Hammerdins are slow. Necros are the fastest PVM possible. Unless you don't know how to teleport that is It is only slow before Enigma, Infinity and a couple other helpful tools like Beast.
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No it was not. They just fixed one way of doing it. It took 5 days and a new method was out.]
Shame on blizzard then.
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Those are also extremely cookie cutters, though since you said with the right made characters and that includes items, it doesn't stand against your point. I just think it you think the game is too easy after having played through it with two of the safest known characters using items acquired through trading on b.net and applied a bot for further items, that you should tell you base your conclusion about the game on something which doesn't require skills to play.
Had you played with something that actually require skills to complete, such as the following untwinked characters which are all perfectly able to complete the game in a reasonable way, I think your opinion would be different:
Strafezon (no javelin and spears)
Dtalon/Dtail-sin (no traps)
Zerkerbarb (no whirlwind)
Werewolf/Shock Wave werebear+grizzly (No elemental skills)
Poison & Bone Necro (No summons, apart from Golems)
Vengeancedin/Converterdin/Healer (No blessed hammers)
Enchantress (melee sorc)
All of these characters are perfectly possible to deal with any situation the game has to offer, but you've to think and make a tactic againt a lot of different situations for these characters to work. If you just go into a mob in hell with the given characters, its stats and skills identical to one who can play it, any mob in hell will tear you apart, because of lack of knowledge of how to actually apply the character. That's when the game is not a mindless click fest and we're talking about around 50% of viable characters.
You can also unplug your keyboard, do a handstand while playing, or pause every 5 seconds and do a lap around your room. What's the point? those restrictions, along with playing crappy builds you suggested, are user-made ways of dealing with the fact the game is too easy to be of any challenge to a powergamer. It proves nothing. See, it's like drawing a square on a piece of paper can be hard because you can actually make a rule that you can only try to draw it while driving a unicycle blindfolded.
You confuse fan-made rules (which can be unforgiving) with core rules the game came with (which are stupidly easy).
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Please don't take this offensive, but my guess is that you're actually no good at pvp.
Could be - never tried it. I watched a few youtube duels, fell asleep, and decided never to play diablo PvP because of how dreadfully boring that looked. Come on, running 5 mins around the map, randomly jumping with a barb, hoping your enemy will randomly teleport while you jump so you can stun him with leap and tele+ww? What's this, a guessing game? No thanks
I watched the best players (or at least they were called "the best" - not sure what to make of that) so I'm pretty sure you can't say that playstyle is a matter of lack of PvP skill and experience. Those 5 mins of cat-and-mouse seem actually what this game is about in PvP, which automatically makes it a "never-even-try" tier to me.
By the way - one of the arguments you're using is invalid. You're saying the game is hard because when you're playing it the first time you are helpless. But that's just a sign of fake difficulty: the game isn't difficult, but the info on what's good and what's not is scarce enough so that you are randomly playing something to learn it the hard way (probably a sub-optimal build). Lack of knowledge about the game doesn't make the game hard.
(btw, 99% of modern games have fake difficulty, not real one)
And yeah, +QP for the effort put into this discussion. Interesting read, even though I don't really agree with your points.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 28, 2012 01:11 AM |
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Like I wrote, it's completely fair that you find the game too easy for you, but that doesn't make it a mindless click fest objectively speaking. Imagine if I said the same about, let's say Supaplex. I'm quite certain you'd not agree that it's an easy game, but it's completely possible that for me, subjectively, the game would be that easy.
Not really. Opinion is one thing, statistics are another. If most people have no problems with finishing Diablo2 (which is true), this means it's an easy game. That can't be said about supaplex because most people can't get past the first few levels, yet alone all 111 of them.
But that's not my point. My point of critizising the "mindless click fest" and "requires no thought" comments were that you didn't actually speciy it sufficiently, that I could only find it a reasonable comment as based on a subjective experience.
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Whatever it might be, it's a bug.
It might not be intended, but it's still part of the game and all it's supposed to show is that there's dangers.
I could have named other stuff, like lightning enchanted + fire enchanted (every charged bolt deals damage equal to 100% of monsters hit points, 50/50 fire/physical).
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For non-bugged creatures, I am fairly sure: with proper (i.e. perfect) gear, you can pretty much leftclick through the game blindfolded and never die.
It's really not that easy, otherwise even the best hardcore players wouldn't find themselves losing their characters once in a while. A summoner is certainly very safe however and one of the few characters it may be the case with.
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You mean the Pit from act 1? The 87 ilvl zone? The monsters there have pretty lame damage and HP compared to act 5 versions, no matter how stacked they are they are simply no threat.
It's a question about behaviour and damage type more than anything. In act5 the only damage which will hit the paladin frequently is elemental damage, which is fully resisted whereas in the pit it's physical damage, which is boosted in my example to a high factor (I think a factor of 8 with extra strong + fanatiscm). The hardest part for the Paladin when it is actually in danger is the behaviour, it's like the monster flees effect, except that they flee before you hit them and it works badly with hammerdins.
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So you're saying that the event they added a good 9 years after the initial release (because the game was so easy they pretty much had to - people were demanding challenge all the time) is a proof that the generic Diablo gameplay isn't easy? uhh. I don't really see the point of this.
No it was just to display that even with the best cookie cutters there is, there are still areas wher you've to think or have some knowledge to be able to handle the situation.
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Necros are the fastest PVM possible. Unless you don't know how to teleport that is
Meteorb is the fastest character type closely followed by a blizballer.
Summoners aren't particular fast, but they're very safe, playing a summoner and you probably won't get in trouble throughout the game, maybe except against diablo in normal, but all what happens is the army goes down once or twice. Unless you're playing at an inappropiate level (I usually play again diablo on normal around level 20-22, unless I play at /players8 (singe player mode), where I'd then be close to level 30).
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You can also unplug your keyboard, do a handstand while playing, or pause every 5 seconds and do a lap around your room. What's the point?
Well those are not ingame restrictions.
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those restrictions, along with playing crappy builds you suggested, are user-made ways of dealing with the fact the game is too easy to be of any challenge to a powergamer.
You just called 5/7'th possible builds of the game for crappy builds. If you're going to ignore 5/7th parts of the game and then call it too easy due to the last 2/7th part then I don't think there's much point in continue discussing.
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You confuse fan-made rules (which can be unforgiving) with core rules the game came with (which are stupidly easy).
Well, I'd honestly not say I do. So fine, if you don't want any restriction because each class have at least 1 skill for the gamer who wants it easy and thereby in your opinion the entire game is easy,
then I can only suggest an untwinked barbarian /players8 single player. I doubt you'd say the game is easy after that, but I'd imagine you'd find it a lot more fun. Though I'd not suggest this to be honest, because such a character can be rather frustrating.
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decided never to play diablo PvP because of how dreadfully boring that looked.
It's funny how one can percieve something very different. I think it was about a half year after I had started playing diablo that I got very very tired of pvm, I found the idea that you had to go through the same "story" 3 times with every character rather meaningless. For me, the idea of pvp and pk'ing saved the game. It made the gamefield unique, always changing. Of course even in pvp there were standard stuff that worked better than other stuff meaning you'd have to go by this methods. Still it made the game much funnier for me, if only shortly.
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Those 5 mins of cat-and-mouse seem actually what this game is about in PvP, which automatically makes it a "never-even-try" tier to me.
It of course also depend on the duel type. If they were really the best players it's most likely you saw barbarian duels == BORING DUELS (in my opinion). Still I don't hope to open your eyes to diablo pvp, because I myself have become tired of it in the years I've played it. I'm just saying it requires quite a lot of understanding and tactics, in my opinion.
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By the way - one of the arguments you're using is invalid. You're saying the game is hard because when you're playing it the first time you are helpless. But that's just a sign of fake difficulty: the game isn't difficult, but the info on what's good and what's not is scarce enough so that you are randomly playing something to learn it the hard way (probably a sub-optimal build). Lack of knowledge about the game doesn't make the game hard.
Well that point, I do agree with. I've always found the lack of information regarding certain "death traps" frustrating and a poor excuse of attempting to make the game harder. But the common advice for when you know about these death traps, depending on character, is often to avoid them, not learning how to engage them. Which means they're still percieved as difficult.
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And yeah, +QP for the effort put into this discussion. Interesting read, even though I don't really agree with your points.
Thank you for the qp.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 28, 2012 10:57 AM |
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Like I wrote, it's completely fair that you find the game too easy for you, but that doesn't make it a mindless click fest objectively speaking. Imagine if I said the same about, let's say Supaplex. I'm quite certain you'd not agree that it's an easy game, but it's completely possible that for me, subjectively, the game would be that easy.
Not really. Opinion is one thing, statistics are another. If most people have no problems with finishing Diablo2 (which is true), this means it's an easy game. That can't be said about supaplex because most people can't get past the first few levels, yet alone all 111 of them.
You can be able to finish any game after many tries. You die many times during Diablo 2 regardless of how experienced you are. Most of the monster groups and superuniques alone are capable of killing you in seconds. Really, it's as if we're talking about different games
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 28, 2012 12:08 PM |
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Meteorb is fast? Faster than skelemancer? Forfy, you're out of your mind I played all the chars out there with perf or close to perf gear. Summonmancer is the king of players1 PvM. Hammerdin is the king of players8 PvM. Meteorb is extremely slow due to the meteor delay and not-so-awesome method of killing immunes (orb's fine, but it takes a couple orbs to orb through high-hp fire immunes. Whereas necro has no immunes against him and just blows the whole screen up after three seconds).
Hardcore players die mostly to... lag and pk. No joke. Not to mention that it's hard to get good gear there (not many people play that realm) so it's obviously harder.
As for the rest of your points, well, since we disagree that fan-made rules aren't really an indicator that the game is hard by itself, we can agree to disagree.
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You can be able to finish any game after many tries. You die many times during Diablo 2 regardless of how experienced you are. Most of the monster groups and superuniques alone are capable of killing you in seconds. Really, it's as if we're talking about different games
I never die early on ladders when I still play untwinked, so I don't agree with you. Sure it's not easy when you're untwinked, but it's not true you have to die every time. With some planning, you can get through most of the game's difficult parts without much of a headache.
And the more gear you have, the easier the game becomes, up to the point where it's extremely easy.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 28, 2012 01:16 PM |
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You can be able to finish any game after many tries. You die many times during Diablo 2 regardless of how experienced you are. Most of the monster groups and superuniques alone are capable of killing you in seconds. Really, it's as if we're talking about different games
I never die early on ladders when I still play untwinked, so I don't agree with you. Sure it's not easy when you're untwinked, but it's not true you have to die every time. With some planning, you can get through most of the game's difficult parts without much of a headache.
And the more gear you have, the easier the game becomes, up to the point where it's extremely easy.
Well, obviously you have extreme extra-human talents. Every person I know dies at least once. I've uninstalled the game at my first 3 tries. And now of course I can finish it, but I die 3-4 times. Especially Act 4 and 5 are never in any difficulty, easy, let alone extremely easy. So it's very absurd for me to hear that. Like Ohfor said, this is a very subjective opinion. And the way I have seen you for 1,5 years now, you called %95 of the games mentioned as "very easy", so you have to call all of them "mindless clicking", not only Diablo 2. And so, for you, only %5 of the games in existence is "not mindless".
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 28, 2012 01:55 PM |
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Meteorb is fast? Faster than skelemancer? Forfy, you're out of your mind
We might have different ideas of at what time to compare, but in every aspect of the game the Meteorb is by far the fastest character, which has been demonstrated again and again.
When untwinked, the sorcerer is the fastest followed by the assassin, because both have either early speed boosters (Burst of Speed) or an extreme speed booster (Teleport 6 levels before any other class could ever use it). Both have AoE attacks, which are effective throughout the part of the games where you need to collect experience.
When going super twinked, the meteorb is the fastest character in average to run areas. This is because when you're sufficiently twinked any cookie cutter can run most areas effectively with only few exceptions. Then it all becomes a question of cast rate and here the barbarian and the sorc dominates.
Like I wrote before, the summonmancer, is by far not the fastest. Untwinked as well as Twinked it's the safest build, if you want to go through the game without dying once, untwinked /players8 sinlge player, then a summonmancer is the by far best choice. However if you want to go through the game fast, then a summoner is not the best choice. If you want to run areas fast for when you're twinking your builds, then a summoner is only the best at a few limited areas.
I'm quite surprised you think the summoner is the fastest build, taken into consideration that in untwinked play, he's limited by the moving speed of his minions and in twinked play he's limited by the slower cast rates and the minions attack delay of an entire second (and that when running areas you usually don't waste time in clearing out mobs, which is one of the things a summoner is really good at, rather you go for specific targets).
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Meteorb is extremely slow due to the meteor delay and not-so-awesome method of killing immunes (orb's fine, but it takes a couple orbs to orb through high-hp fire immunes.
Excuse me for saying this, but then I honestly don't think you're very talented with this game after all, if you had the "best possible" gear and still found a meteorber slow.
Meterorber doesn't use meteor a lot either. It's actually mostly a fireball sorc, you throw metoers yes, but you don't try to spam them, and you only use metoers against stuff like archers or whatever is stationary. Still the typical meteorb wouldn't even consider dealing with something like this, merely teleport pass and only choose enemies which falls easily. That's the whole point of using high movability chars, they get to choose their enemies and need only to prepare against a select few.
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Whereas necro has no immunes against him and just blows the whole screen up after three seconds).
Mob of only physical immunes. They're easier to deal with for a necromancer because of enhanced safety, but not because of a higher killing power. Mages, bone spells, whatever you choose, it'll all take times equivalent or slower as using frozen orb against fire immunes.
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Hardcore players die mostly to... lag and pk. No joke. Not to mention that it's hard to get good gear there (not many people play that realm) so it's obviously harder.
On b.net, that might be true, but that just tells how much b.net sucks (though you've to be rather gullible to be pk'ed several times, in my opinion).
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As for the rest of your points, well, since we disagree that fan-made rules aren't really an indicator that the game is hard by itself, we can agree to disagree.
My point was not to apply fan made rules. I listed a number of possible, viable characters, which consists of approx. 5/7th parts of the game and I merely inform you that I think if you'd trying to complete the game, by yourself in single player, untwinked, /playes8 throughout each and every difficulty, you'd realise how much tactics by far most of the possible character combinations requires.
I mean, imagine if there is a game where there are 8 classes to pick from and 1 of these 8 have an easy times, the 7 others have a hard time. Suggestion playing with one of the 7 other classes before claiming the game to be a mind less click-fest due to experience with 1 out of 8 classes I don't find is equivalent to say we should make the game harder by inventing our own rules. I think it's a fair suggestion that demonstrate that it's too much of a generalization to call the game a mind less click-fest.
Now as you've told, you've tried a good amount of characters, but you haven't denied when asked if these were all cookie cutters and those you've listed were indeed the characters known for having a very easy time. Considering you also play twinked and you play on b.net where there are (or used to be) lots of help to get, I honestly don't find your conclusion of the game being a "mindless click fest" very likely.
That's why I suggested those possible builds, all viable, but they require you to think. I have also suggested a build with no limitation, a classic cookie cutter, which I think would also make you realise that the game is not a mindless click fest after all. A whirlwind barbarian playing through single player, untwinked, /players8.
I'm quite confident that anyone is able to complete the game with such a build, but I don't think any regular person could do it without applying at least some levels of common sense and not just click around mindless.
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I do agree that diablo is not a hard game, to be honest. But considering the amount of build possibilities, the likelyhood of what a random person, playing it for the first time, would pick, means it's very likely said person would find him/herself in a lot of situation where thinking is required even after the parts of fake difficulty which I agree about you with (such as attacking lightning enchanted monsters can be fatal early on, etc.).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 28, 2012 03:23 PM |
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We might have different ideas of at what time to compare, but in every aspect of the game the Meteorb is by far the fastest character, which has been demonstrated again and again.
There's a bunch of people who think even Hammerdin's the fastest.
He's not. And so is the crappy meteorb.
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When going super twinked, the meteorb is the fastest character in average to run areas. This is because when you're sufficiently twinked any cookie cutter can run most areas effectively with only few exceptions. Then it all becomes a question of cast rate and here the barbarian and the sorc dominates.
Okay. I've got a proposition for you. Clock your best time with a chaos run. I'll do the same with my summonmancer. I will totally humiliate your meteorb, my friend Players1 ofc.
Best time of killing everything. Not just a run to the seals and beating diablo (in run speed, of course sorc is the fastest due to lowest frame teleport possible lol. In killing speed tho, not so much).
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I'm quite surprised you think the summoner is the fastest build, taken into consideration that in untwinked play, he's limited by the moving speed of his minions and in twinked play he's limited by the slower cast rates and the minions attack delay of an entire second (and that when running areas you usually don't waste time in clearing out mobs, which is one of the things a summoner is really good at, rather you go for specific targets).
Dude, the 0.2 sec difference between cast time means nothing. Meteorb has a small AoE fireball she has to painfully target at every monster around. Nec kills one by TELEPORTING on him, then blows the whole screen up INSTANTLY. I don't know where did you get that meteorb BS from.
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Excuse me for saying this, but then I honestly don't think you're very talented with this game after all, if you had the "best possible" gear and still found a meteorber slow.
Excuse me for saying this, but I honestly think the same about you
You don't seem to understand the sheer power of enigma/infinity summonmancer. Meteorb is a weak and slow build and I am amazed anyone would think otherwise. (Twinked).
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Mob of only physical immunes. They're easier to deal with for a necromancer because of enhanced safety, but not because of a higher killing power. Mages, bone spells, whatever you choose, it'll all take times equivalent or slower as using frozen orb against fire immunes.
And this line proves you know very little of summonmancers.
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AI listed a number of possible, viable characters, which consists of approx. 5/7th parts of the game and I merely inform you that I think if you'd trying to complete the game, by yourself in single player, untwinked, /playes8 throughout each and every difficulty, you'd realise how much tactics by far most of the possible character combinations requires.
I could turn off my monitor or break my keyboard too. Would that make Diablo 2 hard too? What's the point of arguing that a single player in an environment intended for 8 people (/players8) has a hard time? In his intended environment (players1, best build) the game's a breeze. Those are core rules = players1, any build you want. They are extremely easy.
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Now as you've told, you've tried a good amount of characters, but you haven't denied when asked if these were all cookie cutters and those you've listed were indeed the characters known for having a very easy time. Considering you also play twinked and you play on b.net where there are (or used to be) lots of help to get, I honestly don't find your conclusion of the game being a "mindless click fest" very likely.
I could say the same about you - you throw untwinked (=gimping yourself) exotic builds (bear sorc or any of that stuff lol) on a difficulty intended for more than 1 player (players8) and you're trying to show me diablo is not a click fest based on those. Lol.
I'll give you an analogy. it's like saying cutting a piece of paper is hard because it's hard to do it with rusty scissors, using your feet, and doing a headstand.
No, cutting a piece of paper isn't hard. Doing that stunt is.
No, Diablo2 isn't hard by default. Beating it with self-imposed restrictions is.
When you have all the methods you want (=cookie cutters) and freedom to use this, it's very easy. Not using those is a self-imposed restriction that doesn't change the core difficulty.
Hope that clears the confusion.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 28, 2012 04:01 PM |
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When going super twinked, the meteorb is the fastest character in average to run areas. This is because when you're sufficiently twinked any cookie cutter can run most areas effectively with only few exceptions. Then it all becomes a question of cast rate and here the barbarian and the sorc dominates.
Okay. I've got a proposition for you. Clock your best time with a chaos run.
I even underscored the word average "fastest in average to run areas". It means that there are more than one area and some are the Meteorb of course not the feastest. That you used one of the few areas where the summoner is known to be the fastest on a /p1 settings doesn't tell anything about averages.
If you want to advice a person of a character, then you don't do so expecting said person will only run a few selected areas. That is up to the person, what you suggest is for a character that's as flexible as possible, in other words the character which is in average best at running different areas.
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Dude, the 0.2 sec difference between cast time means nothing. Meteorb has a small AoE fireball she has to painfully target at every monster around. Nec kills one by TELEPORTING on him, then blows the whole screen up INSTANTLY. I don't know where did you get that meteorb BS from.
I think you're assuming full clears and that's not the point here, unless we're talking about ancient tunnels. The few full clear areas you do go for, such as chaos and pit, are not something you'd use a meteorb for. The more usual areas, such as mephisto, andariel the two most common targets, are optimal in regard to the meteorb sorc.
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You don't seem to understand the sheer power of enigma/infinity summonmancer. Meteorb is a weak and slow build and I am amazed anyone would think otherwise. (Twinked).
I'm well aware of how strong a summoner is. I've taken down übers with ease, pk'ing level 80 characters with a level 28 summoner in hell WSK. The summoner is by far one of the best builds in the game.
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And this line proves you know very little of summonmancers.
Then deal with it. The typical summoner doesn't run full clears on areas where you find physical immunes, that'd just be too slow. So tell me how would you deal with this without losing time, or would you do the obvious, i.e. ignoring the monsters, like any other area runner would, should they meet something which their build is not specified to take down?
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I could turn off my monitor or break my keyboard too. Would that make Diablo 2 hard too?
Again, my example consist of above 50% of playable possibilities that are common and able to go through the game. It has nothing to do with playing, using your toes, etc. I think it's quite absurd you're going for an argument going: "Either cookie cutter, or nothing".
I even offered the possibility of a cookie cutter claiming that'd probably convince you and you just keep on going about playing in ways that has nothing to do with the actual game, diablo 2.
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What's the point of arguing that a single player in an environment intended for 8 people (/players8) has a hard time? In his intended environment (players1, best build) the game's a breeze. Those are core rules = players1, any build you want. They are extremely easy.
There are no "core rules", I suggested /players8, because it'd mean you'd be higher level when you were hitting hell. Which means that you'd not be able to go the cheap route and just re-run easier areas to overlevel your character.
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you throw untwinked (=gimping yourself) exotic builds (bear sorc or any of that stuff lol) on a difficulty intended for more than 1 player (players8) and you're trying to show me diablo is not a click fest based on those. Lol.
The builds I suggested:
Any amazon not using javelins and spears == 2/3 of any possible amazon builds.
Any Assassin not using traps == 2/3 of any possible assassin build.
Any Barbarian not using ww (or use ww if you want) == any possible barbarian build.
Etc. Etc.
It doesn't sum up to excotic builds such as a... bear sorc (seriously this would require you to twink heavily and would be an incredibly easy character to go through the game with, it's not a build in itself it's a build based on an item. When you go untwinked you base builds on skills). It sums to 5/7th parts of the entire possible playing classes in the game. Yes I said go for untwinked, because when someone tries diablo 2, they're most likely going to go for untwinked first and foremost. It's a bad habit of many diablo 2 players to assume people they try to get advice can just get enigma (and use it) from the get go, because it forces a playing style down on someone which is much more a cultural thing, i.e. it's something people get used to when playing diablo 2, but not in the stage of seeking advice.
So I try to show you that given a regular player, who might choose any given character to play through the possible combinations of skills, diablo 2 will not be a mindless click fest in most cases when this player starts up a new character from scratch.
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When you have all the methods you want (=cookie cutters)
That's not cookie cutter. Cookie cutter is a label describing a set of classes using skill combinations (and sometimes items combinations) which makes them cut through the games like it was butter. Of course you're going to use all the options you can imagine when you play, but you can't change your environment. If you don't already have an enigma, that's too bad. If you started a smiter in stead of a summoner, that's too bad. You can tell the person to only play it your way, but if it was me, I'd give advice on how to play it the way the person wants to. No matter if the person wants to play a kicksin, a bonenecro, a werewolf, or whatever.
I'd certainly not say that the game is a mindless click fest having a limited set of characters using some optimized gear in mind.
It's most often about averages. Of course it's unlikely someone will go for something completely silly, like a fire arrow amazon (which was incidently one of my first characters, a huge dissapointment, but I had no idea how she would work out then).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 28, 2012 04:16 PM |
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I even underscored the word average "fastest in average to run areas". It means that there are more than one area and some are the Meteorb of course not the feastest. That you used one of the few areas where the summoner is known to be the fastest on a /p1 settings doesn't tell anything about averages.
If you want to advice a person of a character, then you don't do so expecting said person will only run a few selected areas. That is up to the person, what you suggest is for a character that's as flexible as possible, in other words the character which is in average best at running different areas.
Fine. Pick any other location to be cleaned. Doesn't matter, I will always do it faster.
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I think you're assuming full clears and that's not the point here, unless we're talking about ancient tunnels. The few full clear areas you do go for, such as chaos and pit, are not something you'd use a meteorb for. The more usual areas, such as mephisto, andariel the two most common targets, are optimal in regard to the meteorb sorc.
I disregard boss runs as "game". I think it's a easy way to bore yourself to death by killing meph. If you meant boss running or MF running all the time though, I agree, sorc's the easiest. If you meant boss killing speed, no. The fastest is dream/enchant sorc using passion runeword, and the second best is a tie between javazon and any kind of sorc that has a powerful attack to kill the boss with 25% life after static remaining. Not necessarily blizzballer or meteorber.
Guess you have some learning to do mate.
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Then deal with it. The typical summoner doesn't run full clears on areas where you find physical immunes, that'd just be too slow. So tell me how would you deal with this without losing time, or would you do the obvious, i.e. ignoring the monsters, like any other area runner would, should they meet something which their build is not specified to take down?
Of course he does. Amp takes down physical immunity. You have mages (fire only, presumably as they deal most damage). Getting the corpse takes maybe 0.5 second longer. Once he does down, corpse explosion does its job like always - so what that you need to explode 1 guy more to kill the whole screen? that's just a fraction of second more. It's a minuscule slowdown. Now, imagine your fireorb to meet a fire/cold immune... wnow THAT'S a game over there if it's something your merc can't kill.
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There are no "core rules", I suggested /players8, because it'd mean you'd be higher level when you were hitting hell. Which means that you'd not be able to go the cheap route and just re-run easier areas to overlevel your character.
The core rules are simply: playing the game within its boundries. In MP you can't even set /players so players1 is core for a single player.
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So I try to show you that given a regular player, who might choose any given character to play through the possible combinations of skills, diablo 2 will not be a mindless click fest in most cases when this player starts up a new character from scratch.
Another stretch. And what's stoping the player to gradually learn which skills are best (you can reskill now, you know), picking them and rightclicking like I do?
And I don't need lectures on what video game terms are. Used them for years on HC if you haven't noticed.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted January 28, 2012 05:32 PM |
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Holy quote war, Batman!
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 28, 2012 05:36 PM |
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Fine. Pick any other location to be cleaned. Doesn't matter, I will always do it faster.
I already did. Andarial and Meph runs. The most common types.
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I disregard boss runs as "game". I think it's a easy way to bore yourself to death by killing meph.
I'd suggest you inform about something like this before saying something like Summoner is the fastest. Personally, like you runs bore me, but full clear runs bore me as well. I've always thought of a game to be finished when the plot part is resolved.
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If you meant boss killing speed, no. The fastest is dream/enchant sorc using passion runeword, and the second best is a tie between javazon and any kind of sorc that has a powerful attack to kill the boss with 25% life after static remaining. Not necessarily blizzballer or meteorber.
I didn't mean boss killing, I meant running, it includes getting there, taking down the target (which can be a single monster as well as several monsters or an entire area).
For fastest boss killing, it highly depends on the boss in question, but a dream sorc with zeal can never outdo a dream bear sorc, because it's the same build with the only difference the zeal attacks 5 times pr. second while the standard werebear attack hits ~9 times pr. second, which is a huge difference. Anyway, it's often more about speed and high chance to hit, than anything else exactly because of stuff like static field and probably more importantly crushing blow. As such, I'd not be surprised if a 12.5 attacks per second bearsin would be the fastest.
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Guess you have some learning to do mate.
I think that's a premature conclusion (not that we don't always have something to learn) regarding you listed options yourself of which you could find agreement.
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Amp takes down physical immunity.
With 1/5th effectivity, far from enough vs. certain mobs. Which makes amp useless in this case.
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You have mages (fire only, presumably as they deal most damage).
Waaay to little damage, mages can hardly compare with something like frozen orb.
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Getting the corpse takes maybe 0.5 second longer.
You've a huge bunch of mages (which seems to be your approach), which will target randomly within the mob, or all target one creature if you teleport on top. In both cases, your mages puny damage will take a long time. What is it? 200 damage after resist and reduction is taking into account pr. mage? 20 Mages deals then 4000 damage. That's 10 attacks from all 20 mages hitting the same monster. That would not be hard, if there wasn't the delay on half a second + the attack speed of the mages, which is already rather slow. All in all, we're probably talking about 5-10 seconds to get the first corpse, if the targetet monster is not of a fleeing type, but even if it isn't, it means the other targets aren't either and your mages will most likely change targets once every monster gets sufficiently close.
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Now, imagine your fireorb to meet a fire/cold immune... wnow THAT'S a game over there if it's something your merc can't kill.
Or you could ignore the monster. Teleport is great like that.
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playing the game within its boundries. In MP you can't even set /players so players1 is core for a single player.
And in single player you can hardly twink, unless you use stuff like extra programs or fast user switching. So is untwinked core rules as well?
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And what's stoping the player to gradually learn which skills are best (you can reskill now, you know), picking them and rightclicking like I do?
Nothing is. It doesn't mean the player will throughout that learning experience think of the game as a mindless click fest.
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And I don't need lectures on what video game terms are. Used them for years on HC if you haven't noticed.
Sorry about that, though I honestly don't know what you're refering to.
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I forgot to take into account the monsters heal as well. Which means it takes even longer time. Though it's easy to get around something like this with a single to a few poison mages.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 28, 2012 06:53 PM |
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ughh, this is getting wayyyy offtopic. Not really interested in quote wars. 9 attacks per second would require an attack time under 1 frame and this is not possible so you have something completely mixed up. Try here for reference.
I guess it's better to agree to disagree for now.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 28, 2012 06:56 PM |
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I guess it's better to agree to disagree for now.
Okay. I have no problem with this.
About attacks pr. second. The game runs 25 frames pr. second. 9 attacks pr. second is ~3 frames pr. attack. The maximum in-game possible I've heard about is 2 frames pr. attack, i.e. 12.5 attacks pr. second.
The maximum possible amount of attacks pr. second, if you could, would be 1 frame used pr. attack. 25 frames pr. second would then equal 25 attacks pr. second.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 28, 2012 08:20 PM |
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Which is true (well, almost - the game doesn't handle 2 frames attack - there's a big article about it somewhere), but a bearsorc can't reach 3 frames per attack (which is 8 attacks per second and not 9 btw). bear's minimum FPA is iirc 5 or 6. Check the calculator again.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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