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| Thread: War on the Somali pirates? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Elodin
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posted May 21, 2011 08:26 AM |
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War on the Somali pirates?
The Somali pirates have been an increasing PITA. China is calling for land attacks on the pirate bases. What say ye?
I've said before that I'd like to see attacks on the bases. Yes, some innocent civilians living with the pirates will be killed. But if the pirates bases are not dealt with innocent civilians on ships are preyed upon.
Clicky
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darkshadow
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posted May 21, 2011 08:39 AM |
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No.
Rather we should give them specific info on how to raid Chinese oil shipments from Sudan.
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Kipshasz
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Elvin's Darkside
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posted May 21, 2011 11:13 AM |
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Rather wage war on the idiots who run Somali. Their goverment is the main reason that the pirates exsist in the first place.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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baklava
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posted May 21, 2011 12:14 PM |
bonus applied by angelito on 22 May 2011. |
Edited by baklava at 15:28, 21 May 2011.
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Pirates are not stupid. They ransom back whatever and whoever they can, so they generally have neither the wish nor the need to harm their prisoners. The damage they cause is purely economical in nature. Any military action of the kind you're proposing against the settlements they live in would claim a lot more lives and would essentially spell sacrificing civilians in order to protect money. You shouldn't go for a trigger happy solution like that.
Let's think this through.
Where did these guys come from in the first place?
Somalia is one of, if not the most screwed up country in the world. If it can be called a country at all. Like I already said around here a few years ago I think, with the civil war raging inside it, and no clear authority to defend the coastline, various international companies started to misuse the situation for excessive illegal fishing and waste dumping in Somalian waters. That got the fishermen pissed off and, due to their clan-like nature, they started banding together, patrolling and protecting their own waters, which in time - coupled with general lawlessness, poverty, and the opportunities that the Somalian strategical position provided, turned into piracy. People who lived on less than $2 per day started earning unthinkably. Now they're like a higher class of people where they live. They're getting the best girls, building the biggest houses, driving the best cars, and all kinds of crap. They're freaking rock stars, as opposed to being the poorest of the poor, which was pretty much their alternative. Of course so many of them are turning to piracy.
What are they doing to their surroundings, anyhow?
Well, first of all, they're a bunch of men with guns, weed and alcohol in villages. That does make people feel uncomfortable, from one side. From the other, they're not violent to folks around them, and there's a civil war raging in the country, so it's not like anyone would be much safer without any armed locals either. Secondly, their chaotic spending gives the local exchange rates a certain dose of unpredictability, which can be a bad thing.
On the other hand, they're effectively transforming villages into boomtowns, with shop owners becoming able to get things like generators to provide full days of electricity, which was, according to the folks over there, once an unimaginable luxury. The other important thing is that, since the beginnings of piracy, the foreign fishing trawlers that were essentially stealing food from the locals have been scared away, and fishing has once again risen to acceptable levels. Local fishermen report having the largest catches in the last 40 years. As opposed to the situation in Tanzania, which also has no means of controlling its own waters, but where there are no pirates, and the foreign fishing trawlers are at large, causing near starvation.
That's all swell, but they're robbing people.
Yes. All in all, I understand that they're a growing issue. For you guys. But there's no reason to go Chinese on their ass. If nothing, because it was the Western (and most probably Eastern, as well) companies that effectively gave birth to the problem in the first place.
What do you propose then?
Well, according to Globalsecurity.org, there are four main groups operating off the Somali coast.
There's the National Volunteer Coast Guard, commanded by Garaad Mohamed, said to specialize in intercepting small boats and fishing vessels around Kismayo on the southern coast. Alright. With a name like that, you're not a heap of bandits, or at least don't consider yourself one. They have a distinct leader who can be negotiated with. They're gathered around some kind of a cause, protecting the waters from foreign fisheries. Kismayo is a large coastal town that has been left undermanned by ill-equipped units of the Transitional Federal Government forces. It sounds more than possible to strike a deal here. Guarantee a stop to international fishing in their waters, introduce some sort of cooperation between them and the city, there are all kinds of options.
The Marka group, under the command of Yusuf Mohammed Siad Inda'ade, is made up of several scattered and less organized groups operating around the town of Marka. Alright, these guys sound more like traditional pirates, right? Partially. There's a central place around which they operate - Marka - and which is, if I got it right, currently controlled by Al-Shabaab, which are essentially the douchebag Islamist side of the civil war (they buried a 13 year old girl up to her neck in the middle of a stadium in Kismayo in 2008 and stoned her to death. Accused her of adultery. Her mother claimed it was gang-rape). But the thing is in their leader. Inda'ade (White-eyes) was once, for a short period, the Somalian minister of defense. He was affiliated with the Islamists, but defected to the Transitional Government side somewhere in 2009. Then he broke off from them, too, and started his own faction in 2010, claiming they didn't "keep to their agreements". So, see what those agreements were and strike a deal with this tough-ass rebel mofo. He sounds like he can be reasoned with.
The third significant pirate group is composed of traditional Somali fishermen operating around Puntland and referred to as the Puntland group. Puntland's an autonomous and relatively sheltered bit of the country located on the top of the Horn of Africa, which doesn't seek independence or cause troubles, but takes care of itself. Its administration has been cracking down on pirates through international cooperation, social campaigning, and various security operations. The Puntland pirates have dropped in activity by some 20% between 2009 to 2010, and it seems everything's going pretty much alright up there. It'd be great if actions like these could be done throughout the entire coastline, but that'd probably be too difficult, scattered and inefficient, without investing a lot.
The last set are the Somali Marines, reputed to be the most powerful and sophisticated of the pirate groups with a military structure, a fleet admiral, admiral, vice-admiral and a head of financial operations. The most successful of all of the above, I don't really know much about their whereabouts, goals or anything else. The only thing I do know is that they have a strict hierarchy and that they are badass; both of which imply that it generally seems like a better idea to come up with a peaceful solution, since it'd be hard as hell to root them out.
In any case
If any negotiations or plans fail, you can always turn hardcore, get over there and surgically take out their ships. Puntland seems to be fighting the problem effectively without decimating civilians, or so we're told. It's not like these pirates got advanced stealth technology. I'm pretty sure you can safely take out the ships without destroying the settlements around or blowing up any random people. The question is whether you want to blow up random people, in order to send a message or something. But let's assume, for the sake of the conversation, that you don't.
Another important factor from your side, however, would be wanting to get on China's good side, so it's questionable whether you guys would be able to afford to refuse some kind of official request for cooperation.
In any case, you need stricter regulations and control of fishing and waste disposal in the waters of nations who are unable to effectively guard them themselves. That's a crime as much as piracy, and is arguably more harmful, because piracy doesn't bring people to the brink of starvation. If you're playing space cops, do it right.
My 2 cents. Or, rather, 852.
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Elodin
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posted May 21, 2011 04:51 PM |
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The pirates are not noble environmentalists trying to prevent evil capitalist pigs from dumping stuff in Somali waters. Pirate activity has existed there for thousands of years. The pirates are evil men who prey upon others.
To root out the pirates it will be necessary to put boots on the ground. Pirates should not be negotiated with, just like terrorists should not be negotiated with. Earlier this year a US admiral recommended boots dealing with pirates on the shore also. It is the sensible thing to do.
Clicky
The pirates are murderous terrorists and should be treated as such.
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Insanity
Known Hero
Brain cells killa
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posted May 21, 2011 05:44 PM |
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- They are booming the economy, rock stars and many other cool thingies ? hows the definition of a columbian druglord any different than this ?
- They are not harming the civilians in their villages ? how can you know that ? have you been there ? is it safer to assume that they are taking care of the citizens OR that a drunk, smoked up 20 yr old with a gun who lives by i take what i want when i want it, is gonna harm the citizens ? i pick option b but i use common sense
- who are they hurting ? its cool to portray them as modern robin hoods fighting the evil sherif and giving to the poor but they are hurting innocent hard working people and not rich tycoons, they are not really working with a master plan of making somalia an uber cool place but rather on getting themselves rich just like any other criminal out there
- they are terrorists and shouldnt be negotiated with ? excuse me but since when does china have any legal right to attack other country ? to me thats an act of war and a hypocritical one as well, why arent they attacking mexico and columbia and stopping the drug business which claims more victims, if they are so noble ?
- i think both of you guys, the devils advocate and the blind rusher are wrong, the solution must come from somalia itself, they must form a government, have their national waters protected from dumping and ask to receive payments from anyone who is passing through their national waters, piracy must be abolished unless it is johnny depp, foreign countries like china are only allowed to protect their boats if attacked, or stop abusing somalias national waters and change the route
pufffff serious sleeves are down its ok to go back playing with eggzie
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Doomforge
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posted May 21, 2011 06:11 PM |
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Quote:
- they are terrorists and shouldnt be negotiated with ? excuse me but since when does china have any legal right to attack other country ? to me thats an act of war and a hypocritical one as well, why arent they attacking mexico and columbia and stopping the drug business which claims more victims, if they are so noble ?
The question should be: why aren't they legalizing drugs which would greatly weaken drug cartels' power without any violence at all.
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baklava
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posted May 21, 2011 06:21 PM |
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@Elodin
What I don't understand, is how can you
a) choose to remain so stubbornly unaware of any details about the topic you're discussing, except those you desperately try to rip out of context, entirely ignoring every even mildly sensible opposing argument in its entirety,
b) insist so much on young Americans participating (of course, never you or your family personally) in violent clashes around the globe, with inevitable civilian and military casualties,
c) back up your bloodthirsty jingoism with unchecked propaganda and your own, home-brewed c-class demagogy, and then
d) expect anyone to have a sensible conversation with you.
I'm trying. I really am. You've got to give me some credit for that. Address something I'm saying in a valid manner.
What you just did, instead of addressing some of the key points in the issue, was to shove at me a man whose official statement about this problem goes:
Quote:
Al-Shabab is responsible for a lot of training activity and camps and that sort of thing (clearly an adequate rhetoric for a well-versed and informed official issuing a statement about a serious international problem) in Somalia. The pirates use these things. There cannot be a segregation between terrorist activity, in my mind, and counter piracy (let's assume he meant "counter-terrorist activity").
First of all, it's incredibly annoying how more and more officials are constantly getting away with generally irresponsible and slanderous statements like that one, or the one about Bin Laden using his wife as a living shield. Because even when they're proven wrong, the damage on the minds of fanatics is already done, as they'll keep repeating what they heard like parrots for at least a month after those statements have been successfully rebuffed.
There is no evidence of any direct connection between any of the pirates (which, believe it or not, are not a unified organization and are, much like the entire country, split in dozens of factions) and the Al-Shabaab. There have been, however, various situations (see this and this one, for instance) that they're not getting along with Al-Shabaab any more than with you. At least the majority of pirates, even if some are trading with them (which wouldn't make sense anyway. Pirates are, per se, not closely affiliated with any ideology. If they trade, they trade for profit, and there is more profit to be had in selling back the Westerners their own equipment).
Finally, other than the clicky bit, your essential reply to all the points I was trying to make was a simple "no", and that was it. Piracy everywhere has existed for thousands of years; and it pretty much didn't exist in Somalia any more than in any other countries throughout most of the 20th century, until the above mentioned incidents took place. As far as I've gathered, that's the official UN info about the piracy problem, you can feel free to check it all out (if the UN isn't too liberal and antiamerican for your taste). There have been no records of piracy problems before, and certainly not anywhere near this scale.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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blizzardboy
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posted May 21, 2011 06:57 PM |
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Quote:
The pirates are not noble environmentalists trying to prevent evil capitalist pigs from dumping stuff in Somali waters. Pirate activity has existed there for thousands of years. The pirates are evil men who prey upon others.
To root out the pirates it will be necessary to put boots on the ground. Pirates should not be negotiated with, just like terrorists should not be negotiated with. Earlier this year a US admiral recommended boots dealing with pirates on the shore also. It is the sensible thing to do.
Clicky
The pirates are murderous terrorists and should be treated as such.
If only this wrath were directed to start with a very aggressive legal campaign to sue the companies that exploited Somalian waters and use it to help give the Somalian government half-an-ass of a chance to return some order to their country, and then have a zero-tolerance policy towards future exploiters. That needs to be the priority because that's what has the best chance of actually solving the issue. Somalia isn't going to run out of emo-raging young adult men anytime soon, thus piracy will continue until the root of the crisis is addressed. You get rid of weeds by pulling out the root, not hacking off the stem.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted May 21, 2011 07:04 PM |
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@Bak
Perhaps you could lay aside the personal insults and debate like a mature person.
Quote:
What you just did, instead of addressing some of the key points in the issue, was to shove at me a man whose official statement about this problem goes:
Sorry, but I did address your points. Your main claim was piracy was the fault of evil capitalist pigs who were dumping toxins in the waters of Somalia. It was quite easy to prove you wrong and now you are saying piracy along the Somalia coast has been no worse that piracy elsewhere. Rather laughable.
The Somali pirates are operating well outside the waters of Somalia.
Quote:
Pirates are, per se, not closely affiliated with any ideology. If they trade, they trade for profit, and there is more profit to be had in selling back the Westerners their own equipment).
Sorry, but the fact is the Somali pirates are Muslims and affiliated with terrorist organizations.
Stealing equipment and then "selling" it back to the owner is not "trading." Kidnapping and demanding ransom is not "trading." People on the left have some rather bizarre viewpoints.
For a good article on the situation see Clicky Here is a brief exert from the article.
Quote:
While the lawlessness in Somalia is troubling, activities in the Horn of Africa are of increasing international concern. In addition to aiding in lawlessness and other enterprises, it is thought that pirates are also supporting extremist organizations operating in northern and western Africa.
Al-Qaeda leaders and publications clearly state that al-Qaeda seeks to “oppose peacekeeping efforts in Muslim countries, notably Somalia and Sudan,” and harm the global economy by disrupting oil production. Furthermore, “Somalia has long been a rear base for the East Africa al Qaeda (EAAQ) cell” that conducted the successful 1998 attacks on U.S. embassies. Rather than basing “its primary leaders or principal training camps” in Africa, al-Qaeda has established ties with local Islamist groups. Hizbul Islamia, a splinter group from Somali terrorist group Al-Itihad al-Islamia (AIAI), is “seeking to establish an Islamist state in Somalia.” Harakat al-Shabab, another AIAI splinter, has been working with EAAQ to establish an Islamic state in the Horn of Africa.[22]
At first glance, the terrorist and pirate activities may seem unrelated, but terrorist organizations benefit from pirates in many ways. Al-Shabab benefits from the goods and weapons that pirates smuggle into various Somali ports. Somalia is also a port of entry into Africa for foreign fighters and a transit point for terrorists traveling to other countries, including those responsible for the March 2009 bombing in Yemen.[23]
n turn, Islamist groups permit pirates to operate in Islamist-controlled areas. Pirates use the proceeds from hijacking and pilfering ships to pay suppliers. Potential terrorists and criminals use pirates not only as a means of transportation, but also as a source of financing[24] and materials (e.g., weapons, drugs, and other materials in hijacked ships) that terrorists find useful.
Some experts have argued that these illegal organizations can operate in such proximity without cooperating to a significant degree and developing strong ties.[25] In contrast, Admiral Mark Fox, Commander of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command, has observed:
Al-Shabab is responsible for a lot of training activity and camps and that sort of thing in Somalia…. The pirates use these things. There cannot be a segregation between terrorist activity, in my mind, and counter piracy. We can’t be passive and hopeful it doesn’t happen.[26]
........
Conclusion
Piracy has become a serious threat to international commerce, and the Somali pirates have been developing ties with Islamist terrorists in the region. Admiral Fox has the right idea in treating the pirates as terrorists and going after them, their supply lines, and their financial transactions with “the same intensity [the coalition members] use when targeting terrorists.”[44]
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baklava
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posted May 21, 2011 07:07 PM |
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Hey. Haven't had a threesome in a while.
@Insanity
Columbian drug lords, Mexican cartels etc are generally an entirely different issue. They differ from pirates in pretty much every aspect except the ones you mentioned, not the least of which being
1 - the cartels and their drug wars actually kill people,
2 - Columbia is no California but it's not on the brink of starvation either, and
3 - no one's talking about invading Columbia.
I'm not protecting the pirates. I'm not calling them rock stars in order to draw people to hop in their tight pants, put on a silly hat and excessive amounts of belts and head over to Somalia.
I'm trying to explain that the problem's a bit broader than what some may think, and that I'd rather try out every other possible solution before stomping down everything in my path.
Now.
The point with letting Somalia handle this is a great one, but there are a few slight impediments in that plan, for example there's been a bit of a civil war going on in Somalia for the past decade or so and the let's-publicly-stone-a-13-year-old-girl-to-death-because-she-was-gang-raped side which is holding about half the country is a bit higher on the under-equipped, scattered government forces' priority list.
There is no way in hell that Somalia can take care of this itself.
As for your other idea, protecting their national waters and changing routes: I'm not sure if the routes can be changed, Somalia's in a great strategic position, but see my first post - protecting their national waters is one of the things I'm completely supportive of. I think that'd be one of the key points in solving the problem. I just don't think that would, at this stage, be enough.
What I said about harming the local population are the attitudes of the locals that I encountered and read on my journeys throughout the internetz. A lot of them don't feel safe, of course, but as far as I've seen, they generally agree that pirates are better than fanatics, and more efficient for their economy than the government. Also, none of them mentioned being repressed by the pirates. I'm guessing they pretty much mind their own business and don't have a problem with you if you don't have a problem with them. It can't be comfortable for the locals, of course, but look at their options, considering they're living either in an area ruled by the Islamists, or one that's under constant danger of Islamist attack. And don't forget all the international companies' fishing ships and tankers that the pirates chased off - quite a useful side effect for the villagers.
I may seem like the devil's advocate but I just don't like the easiness with which the international community is launching increasingly life-costly military operations into the third world as of late.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted May 21, 2011 07:24 PM |
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I have nothing against Elodin saying Americans should take care of it.
As long as Elodin takes a m-16 and goes to do what, according to him, should be done 
So easy to send young men to their probable deaths within the comfort of one's cozy chair, behind the armor of widescreen monitor.
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blizzardboy
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posted May 21, 2011 07:30 PM |
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Because anybody that supports a military action has to partake in it :rolls eyes:
"Probable death". Hardly.
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baklava
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posted May 21, 2011 07:31 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 19:42, 21 May 2011.
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@Elodin
Uhm. This is incredibly embarrassing but I must admit, I'm just not able to see neither the proof that I was wrong over anything, nor your sources that successfully rebuff my claims about pre-civil-war piracy in Somalia...
Did you mean the "pirates are evil men" argument? Or the "pirates are murderous terrorists" one?
Maybe you posted the wrong clicky?
PS
I also don't see how anything I said of you is an untrue personal insult, except perhaps that your demagogy is c-class, which could, now that I re-read it, actually be regarded as a compliment. 
Alright, I did say you're bloodthirsty. Jingoistic was enough. Boils down to the same, really, but I'll try to be more politically correct towards vampires next time.
You need to understand that this is the OSM, not the real world (like the Tavern), and that henceforth, when I say "Screw you", I mean "I heavily disagree with your ethical and political compass".
No, but seriously, gimme something to work with here, man. Let's see some real arguments flying about. Or at least a personal attack or two.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted May 21, 2011 07:42 PM |
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Quote:
Because anybody that supports a military action has to partake in it :rolls eyes:
He probably should. Else, he's just another guy that encourages things he has absolutely no clue about, and that makes the whole encouragement pointless.
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Salamandre
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posted May 21, 2011 07:52 PM |
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A world where any leader deciding a war action is forced to send his kids in front lines. That would be great.
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Insanity
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Brain cells killa
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posted May 21, 2011 08:58 PM |
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Edited by Insanity at 21:01, 21 May 2011.
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every conflict is usually broader than what people think otherwise there would be no conflict.
country negotiating with pirates or any other well known criminal organization, gives that pirate validation and sends the wrong message to every criminal out there, your solution is unacceptable.
going in and blowin everyone to pieces will solve nothing but instead will create bloodshed and a further conflict which will likely go on for years to come, even if all pirates were killed it would be considered dealing with the symptom instead of solving the acual problem, this solution is also unaccaptable.
my solution solves the actual problem as it kicks its ass from within its a naive and unprobable solution but the only one presented so far that makes sense, u can disagree all you want but im insanity and arguing with insane people is useless 
u have your opinions, cowboy has his and i have mine, its ok to think differently, and now xcuzz me guyz but i have far more important thingz to do like hatching my antisocial eggzie  peace 
eeeeeeeeeeeeek it hatched it hatched, such a beautiful baby, thnx threadzie !!!!!!!
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Salamandre
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posted May 21, 2011 09:08 PM |
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Doomforge
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posted May 21, 2011 10:28 PM |
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Quote:
A world where any leader deciding a war action is forced to send his kids in front lines. That would be great.
exactly what I was trying to say 
This should not only apply to leaders, but also to people encouraging wars.
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blizzardboy
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posted May 21, 2011 10:29 PM |
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Quote:
A world where any leader deciding a war action is forced to send his kids in front lines. That would be great.
Yeah, I'd love to have a Head of State/Government having to worry about their kids as they are forcefully thrown onto the front line, as if the leader didn't have enough to worry about.
You could say a lot of things about a conscripted army since it is corrupt by default, but volunteer forces signed their contract with the military by their own admission, and the chances of dying in the M.E. or to Somali Pirates is immensely low compared to a real war. If it weren't for my moral grievances with recent foreign affairs, I have no doubt I would have signed up for a few years military duty for all the perks.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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