|
| Thread: War on the Somali pirates? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
posted May 21, 2011 10:40 PM |
|
|
Quote:
and the chances of dying in the M.E. or to Somali Pirates is immensely low compared to a real war.
I'm sure the family of the dead will gladly accept your explanation that their kid died with 0.001% chance of dying instead of 20% and that will be a great consolation to them.
Who cares what the probability is? You start war = your soldiers start dying. There is simply no possiblity of avoiding casualties - and it's no consolation, knowing your son died in a operation where he technically shouldn't.
It means crap when your kid is dead anyway.
Quote:
If it weren't for my moral grievances with recent foreign affairs, I have no doubt I would have signed up for a few years military duty for all the perks.
Perks are fine, but it gets difficult when they send you to Iraq and you get your legs and balls blown off on a home made mine.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2011 10:43 PM |
|
|
The point is, people in the US military have chosen to be there. It doesn't mean we should be sending them out to die needlessly, but they've accepted the risks.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted May 21, 2011 10:46 PM |
|
|
Why don't stats matter? Far, far fewer people are affected than if they were fighting another developed, competent military force. Fighting is part of a military's job; 99% of the time they just sit on their ass using up people's money to do absolutely nothing. Heaven forbid if we have a need for them that they go serve a purpose.
Not that I think Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya are serving a worthwhile purpose, but in theory if there was a need for a military, the brass should be able to use them without being obligated to throw their own kids into the fray. Do their kids get a say in the matter? There's no reason Joe the Dental Hygienist should be going to Africa.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 21, 2011 11:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
A world where any leader deciding a war action is forced to send his kids in front lines. That would be great.
exactly what I was trying to say 
This should not only apply to leaders, but also to people encouraging wars.
Unlike you two I believe in freedom. The child of a leader should not be forced to join the military and should enjoy the same freedoms everyone else does.
Also, it would be really stupid to send a four year old kid to the front lines. Or sending some sixteen year old kid who is in a wheelchair to the front lines. Unfortunately libs often respond with emotions rather than rationally.
Wars are necessary at times. No nation can survive unless it is willing to go to war unless some other nation is protecting it.
Also, someone claimed the pirates don't kill. That is false. First, they fire on merchant ships. The ammo and rockets could kill anyone. Second, there are many instances of them killing hostages.
Here is one of many examples.
Somalia is a safe haven for the pirates and other terrorists. There is no way to stop the piracy until the pirate bases are done away with.
You don't want the US to put boots on the ground? Fine. We should drop leaflets warning everyone to flee the coastal area. Give them three days. After that bomb the coast to the stone age. Leave no building in a port town standing. When the Somali government is able to enforce law in their country allow ports but until then make it a point to bomb anything and anyone that approaches the coast.
Personally I think putting boots on the ground would be better for Somalia, but there's an option for you.
|
|
Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2011 11:34 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Wars are necessary at times. No nation can survive unless it is willing to go to war unless some other nation is protecting it.
Thats true I'm afraid. Until there be more than 1 country on this world there will be wars. This is the human nature.
Quote:
Somalia is a safe haven for the pirates and other terrorists. There is no way to stop the piracy until the pirate bases are done away with.
You could make an end of piracy only if you purge the whole thing. Same for terrorism. You can't fight a war against such decentralised things like piracy and terrorism. It's just won't work.
The main problem is poverty. The utterly poor african countries will be always the basis of piracy and crime. They want to live like the american dream! But it won't work. They got in a circle where they can't exit anymore 'cause violance infested their deepest soul and their view of the world is twisted. Poverty induced crime made them less than human beings and the world threat them like that instead to make those countries' economy a bit better where those pirates and others usually came from.
Or if someone likes the shorter and easier way... Just nuke\burn them all. Jump in wars that isn't it's business is what the USA could make the best.
So why not? Burn-kill-bombing-kill-exterminate!
But that won't make an end of those things...
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 12:03 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Unlike you two I believe in freedom.
And I believe in evidence facts and I dismay propaganda leading to wrong decisions.
4770 americain brave guys died in Iraq, which is now even a bigger sh*thole then before. Now go explain to their families that their kids died for nothing, there were no mass D weapons or anything threatening your country. Just a poor land with a sick egocentric leader, as there are a bunch today. Of course the picture that a leader should send his kids in front line was a metaphor, we can dream about them becoming one day responsible. Human lives have very low price for them, despite the blabla they preach us everyday.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 01:50 AM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 01:50, 22 May 2011.
|
Quote:
You could make an end of piracy only if you purge the whole thing. Same for terrorism. You can't fight a war against such decentralised things like piracy and terrorism. It's just won't work.
Sure piracy, terrorism, baby-rappers, murderers, tax dodgers, ect, will always be around. That does not mean that such activities can't be curtailed.
The war on terrorism has impeded the ability of terrorists to carry out acts of terror. Destroying the pirate bases, hopefully with the death or surrender of most pirates, will impede the ability of pirates to conduct piracy.
Quote:
The main problem is poverty.
That statement is like spitting in the face of every honest poor person. Most poor people are not criminals. Poverty does not cause crime. I grew up in deep poverty and lived in a ghetto apartment while working my out of poverty.
Poverty does not cause piracy.
____________
Revelation
|
|
wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 02:01 AM |
|
|
You do know that the people in Somalia doesn't have the same possibilities for a brighter future you had in USA thirty-forty years ago when you got your education, right? They have to grasp onto every little chance they have to put food on the table for their family.
____________
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 02:01 AM |
|
|
Is there such a thing as crime in an ungoverned world?
EDIT: Well, we could also... You know, stop going to Somalia for fishing and dumping our waste.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 09:11 AM |
|
|
Quote:
...Poverty does not cause crime...
Of course it does. Only because you have found 2 or 3 example when it worked out well, doesn't mean it works well for all.
There are a bunch full of people who get insanely rich when participating in a Ponzi Scheme. Does that mean this is a good thing? No, because way more people lose all their money so a few can get rich. And that's why (extreme) capitalism is quite similar to a ponzi scheme.
Like a lottery. 1 million people pay 1 dollar to participate. 1 guy wins $1 million dollar in the end. So of course everyone has a chance to get that money, but it is IMPOSSIBLE all participants get it. So for 1 rich guy, you have 999.999 "poor" ones.
You can't get rich without taking money from others. The more money you take, the more people lose theirs. So for every person who become very rich, many others become very poor. Otherwise capitalism wouldn't work. And if you are poor and need to feed your kids, you will do everything when you have reached a specific point. And that includes crime.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 12:24 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
The main problem is poverty.
That statement is like spitting in the face of every honest poor person. Most poor people are not criminals. Poverty does not cause crime. I grew up in deep poverty and lived in a ghetto apartment while working my out of poverty.
Poverty does not cause piracy.
See what I just underlined there?
The Somali people have no way of doing that legally. If they did, there would not be pirates. That measn that you where never struck in poverty, and everyone could leave it. That does not apply to Somalia.
The entire fact that pirates started out as smalltimes gathering arms to do something about international fishing dumps should tell you all you need to know on how horrible the situation is.
It is not comparable to drug dealing, because drug dealing involves very little initial risk and a really high gain of money compared to that, and it takes just enough time to be a part time job in contrast to actually working.
____________
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 12:41 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 12:43, 22 May 2011.
|
Quote:
baby-rappers
Yo watch who you dissin', nigga, imma pop a cap in yo ass.
I never said no pirate ever killed anyone. I said that's not their goal, nor their practice, and that they will not do that if they get paid. They're still pirates, of course.
It's incredibly sad that someone informed and intelligent enough to believe that starving Somali villagers and a borderline impoverished American have similar options in life considers it to be his right to support murdering thousands somewhere on the other side of the world.
Your act of invading an independent country's shoreline because of an incident like that one with the missionaries would be a far greater act of terrorism on an international scale, and claim a lot more lives. You're allowing yourselves more than enough already.
Sorry, man, I've been on the receiving end of your freedom a bit too much to actually be able to believe in it. And that was a situation far less horrifying than what you're hoping to do in Somalia. Perhaps someone ought to free you like that a little, so that you can find out what it feels and looks like.
It'd be a blast.
Literally.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 01:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Unlike you two I believe in freedom. The child of a leader should not be forced to join the military and should enjoy the same freedoms everyone else does.
Also, it would be really stupid to send a four year old kid to the front lines. Or sending some sixteen year old kid who is in a wheelchair to the front lines. Unfortunately libs often respond with emotions rather than rationally.
Wars are necessary at times. No nation can survive unless it is willing to go to war unless some other nation is protecting it.
You see, the issue at hand is that you're just a big theorist. Unless you're from the Army, you shouldn't really talk about things you don't have a clue about (i.e. wars) and you shouldn't encourage sending people for their deaths because of what you think is right. Instead, take a gun and do it yourself.
People that encourage or advise something should imho have some practice in it, otherwise they are theorists who read some books and think that gives them the moral right to have their opinion. Well fine, but in reality, their opinion isn't worth two bucks. It's virtually worthless and shouldn't count.
Also, there's no freedom in army. You only have freedom to obey (or freedom to not be a soldier).
I know what's your problem Elodin. You simply lack empathy (btw: is that the correct word? not sure.). You have absolutely zero ability to imagine being somewhere else than in your rich, American home, being someone else than hardworking American civilian. Because of that, your judgement is extremely biased, and thus, flawed. What you should do sometimes is try to imagine being born elsewhere, in poverty, being raised in different culture and religion, and from there, things may actually not look as black and white to you as they look now.
You lack relativity. What you do is relate everyone to your background, your country, your life, your life choices - without ever caring for massive differences created by shifting backgrounds.
Hope nothing in this opinion insults you, because I honestly don't even see what in this opinion could offend you, but who knows, you're quick to say someone is insulting you with his opinions (easy to offend?)
btw: ever been abroad?
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Duke_Falcon
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 02:11 PM |
|
|
Quote:
btw: ever been abroad?
That's the main question. The world itself is not like the USA but quite different. Here in hungary you will be despised and become a criminalist if you born into such deep poverty (see gypsies here in hun). Gypsies are mostly criminals because they so poor that they eat the dead dog and stole not to die in hunger. Somalia is far more worse than gypsies here.
Go abroad and look other countries how they work and threat poverty! Go into Asia or Africa where you could see the real face of human social problems.
Quote:
You see, the issue at hand is that you're just a big theorist. Unless you're from the Army, you shouldn't really talk about things you don't have a clue about (i.e. wars) and you shouldn't encourage sending people for their deaths because of what you think is right. Instead, take a gun and do it yourself.
I got a standard military training and I must say that was enough! To be a soldier is hard and harsh! In a war a soldier die rather than survive. I've seen simulated combat situations and even that was sometimes frightening so what do you think real war is?
I may fight in a war as I see to die in fight is honourable BUT not the best! When you feel the pain and the end is near, honour means nothing and you just want to live. So do not encourage wars if you aren't participate in them!
And think about this: If you die in a war how will your family feel? Or if your relatives\child(ren) dies in a war how will you feel? Bet you won't care about the goals of your relative died for you will feel only that he\she is no more and do not matter anything else...
Quote:
Also, there's no freedom in army. You only have freedom to obey (or freedom to not be a soldier).
Disobedience trigger serious punishment, even execution sometimes. And you americans forgot something: Fight on your own mother-\fatherland. It is very convenient for you that your country's soldiers go to war instead of you cause they are an INVADING force. But if you must defend USA on your own land than you and everyone who can fight (not almost dead, crippled or under 15) must fight and may die. In war there is no freedom.
Don't want you to try this but sometimes I seriously think that a certain "mass" of americans must experience what is a self-defending war on their own land... Their view will change significantly, believe me...
____________
|
|
friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 03:28 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Pirates are not stupid. They ransom back whatever blah blah blah My 2 cents. Or, rather, 852.
Great post. Nice to see someone who understands the relevance of real information on a discussion.
Quote:
China is calling for land attacks on the pirate bases
I had to lol at this. Clearly China hasn't learned their African lesson yet.
Honestly though I don't see why any American should get involved at all. In fact I think American civilians should be banned from that part of that ocean just for the sole purpose that Obama doesn't get sucked into another dippy hostage fiasco like the one that did Carter in.
In fact
I'll make a prediction right now that between now and the election Fox news will spend a substantial amount of airtime on some unlucky American hostages and their media prone pirate caretakers, the implicit assumption being that if Obama doesn't get sucked into an African quagmire send in the strike force Delta then he's a weak cowardly commander in chief that doesn't deserve re-election.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 04:28 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 16:30, 22 May 2011.
|
Quote:
Quote:
...Poverty does not cause crime...
Of course it does. Only because you have found 2 or 3 example when it worked out well, doesn't mean it works well for all.
Nah. Most poor people are honest, just like most rich people are honest. There are criminals who are rich and criminals who are poor. Crime is caused by poor character, not poverty or riches.
Quote:
You can't get rich without taking money from others.
Sure you can. Most rich people became rich by offering goods and services people want. They started off small and worked hard.
Other people with a socialist mindset just spent their lives moaning and complaining and saying "the man is keeping me down," never changed what they were doing and so remained where they started in life or sunk further down.
"Taking money" is something people with an entitlement mentality, like socialists (through the government), muggers, and bank robbers do. Offering goods and services for purchase is what capitalists do.
@Bak
Quote:
I never said no pirate ever killed anyone.
Oh, but you did.
Quote:
Columbian drug lords, Mexican cartels etc are generally an entirely different issue. They differ from pirates in pretty much every aspect except the ones you mentioned, not the least of which being
1 - the cartels and their drug wars actually kill people,
You were saying that was a difference between pirates and drug dealers. You painted the pirates as righteous environmentalists attacking evil capitalist pigs who were dumping toxins in the waters of Somalia.
Quote:
It's incredibly sad that someone informed and intelligent enough to believe that starving Somali villagers and a borderline impoverished American have similar options in life considers it to be his right to support murdering thousands somewhere on the other side of the world.
Whoa dude, why the lies? Unlike the left, I don't approve of murder and make no excuse for it.
Everyone has the opportunity to be honest. Everyone. And most poor people are.
Unlike the left, I don't think honest people should have to bend over and take it when "environmentalist defending" pirates or other human scum decide to prey on them. Unlike the left, I make no excuse for murderers, such as "but he was born poor" or "but his Mommy spanked him" or "but he watched a violent cartoon" or "but he doesn't have as much money as a rich person so he has a right to kill the rich person and take his money" or "but dude, he was stoned" or any of the thousands of other excuses leftists offer to defend murderers.
No, I don't think anyone in a slave state, like a socialist nation or third world nation in Africa, has the same opportunity as a person living in a freedom loving capitalist nation. But everyone can be honest no matter where he lives.
Quote:
Your act of invading an independent country's shoreline because of an incident like that one with the missionaries would be a far greater act of terrorism on an international scale, and claim a lot more lives. You're allowing yourselves more than enough already.
It is not terrorism to root out terrorists and bring them to justice.
It is not terrorism when a SWAT team storms a school to take out a shooter who is killing innocent children there. Yes, there is always a risk of an innocent child dying to friendly fire if they storm the building but if they don't storm the building then more innocent children will die.
You see, all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. Unfortunately the left says good people who try to do something to stop the evil people are the bad guys.
@DOOM
Quote:
You see, the issue at hand is that you're just a big theorist
You are just a liberal socialist parrot.
Quote:
Unless you're from the Army, you shouldn't really talk about things you don't have a clue about (i.e. wars) and you shouldn't encourage sending people for their deaths because of what you think is right. Instead, take a gun and do it yourself.
You certainly don't mind spewing your Code Pink opinions about war. Are you saying you have a military background? No, you are clueless.
Actually, I did serve in the military (4 years) as did my father. Last weekend I tended to the grave of great great grandfather who also served in the military. I entered the military when I was about 27.5 years old and left my business in the capable hands of my wife because my family has a history of military service. I participated during the first Desert Storm and various other operations. I have a veteran of foreign war medal and you have Michael Moore crap rhetoric.
I also have worked part time with law enforcement through the years.
Now you and other leftists can shut up about me not knowing what it is like to have bullets flying around me because frankly you are clueless parrots of loony liberal theorists.
Quote:
Also, there's no freedom in army. You only have freedom to obey (or freedom to not be a soldier).
Yeah, it is kind of obvious that a military can't be a democracy.
Quote:
I know what's your problem Elodin. You simply lack empathy (btw: is that the correct word? not sure.). You have absolutely zero ability to imagine being somewhere else than in your rich, American home, being someone else than hardworking American civilian. Because of that, your judgement is extremely biased, and thus, flawed. What you should do sometimes is try to imagine being born elsewhere, in poverty, being raised in different culture and religion, and from there, things may actually not look as black and white to you as they look now.
Your problems stem for your liberal brainwashing. That has left you clueless and ignorant of the way the real world functions.
You have zero ability to see that hard work, working extra jobs, working more jobs, ect, can let you make more money than if you sit on your butt drawing money from the government (letting a politician steal from working people for you.)
Oh, yes, I lived in a ghetto for many years so I certainly understand what it is like to live something besides my "rich American home." I live in a home that is smaller than I COULD BE living in by the way. Unlike liberal party leaders I am not pretentious or self centered.
I also give far more of my income to charity than any socialist I know about. Socialists like to talk a good game about redistributing wealth but really what everyone but themselves to do it.
So I can hardly blame you for your judgement being biased, flawed, and basically ****. You have no relativity. Your education has been that of brainwashing by the left and you have yet to realize there is a real world out there that does not match their leftist dogma.
Quote:
ou lack relativity. What you do is relate everyone to your background, your country, your life, your life choices - without ever caring for massive differences created by shifting backgrounds.
Actually, I have been involved in charity in Africa for a number of years. You see, unlike socialists, I actually do believe in helping others who are less well off than me through CHARITY. I care, socialists theorize.
You see, I have been poor. I worked my way out of poverty and am now "rich." I've been through the whole spectrum so I see the shifting backgrounds. You just make excuses and repuke the leftist ideas about why poverty exists and how no one can climb out and if anyone manages to get out of poverty it was pure luck.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 04:58 PM |
|
|
Well, excluding your <insert-millions-of-pejorative-adjectives-and-add-leftist-or-liberal-at-the-end> blabber, I'm happy to see you grew some backbone to actually TRY to respond to the very problem that you have.
The problem is that your answer is still not satisfying at all. What you have done is basically saying "No I'm not - it's you" to every fault I've pointed out in your reasoning.
And you have not gotten the point at all. What I meant was: you were born in America, raised by Americans, and made it from poor to rich IN AMERICA. You don't seem to take ANY form of cultural difference into consideraton. You just point out what's good by American standards but fail to notice that American standards aren't exactly absolute standards and they aren't even of the same value to different people.
Gee, you seem awfully pissed, sir. Have I struck a nerve or something? 
I don't get that liberal-something blabber too, I'm not that interested in politics, and I don't even have a "liberal" equivalent in my country, so.. yeah. Don't relate everything you see to your domestic situation, lesson #2905303.
About the military: I am advocating NOT advocating anything army-related PRECISELY because I know nothing about the army. Missed a point again, didn't we...
Anyways, let's move on from our-personality-analysis to the thread at hand. pirates.
Well, what CAN you do against them?
Seeing that probably most of them simply live mingled with ordinary citizens, you can't just do it "the hard way" aka "let's shoot some Tomahawks from Ticonderogas and hope for the best".
Pirates seem a internal problem - like mafia or cartels. Strengthening the police force would be a step in the right direction, I think, even though in a country as poor as that, it's probably not going to do much.
The pirates need to be identified and arrested, not killed in a massive artillery fire (along a few hundred civilians).
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 05:53 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 18:33, 22 May 2011.
|
@Elodin
I didn't paint the pirates as environmentalists, but as fishermen in origin. Dumping toxic waste in their waters destroys their catch, their only legal means of sustaining themselves. That's not that hard to grasp, is it?
When I said "drug cartels actually kill people", I meant that the death tolls caused by drug cartels and pirates are incomparably different. Drug wars raging through Mexico and South America carry away far more lives than piracy, and yet you wouldn't dare blow parts of Mexico or Columbia "to the stone age", would you.
You vastly exaggerated the casualties inflicted by the pirates, like you exaggerate with everything else.
You do approve of murder, you just don't call it murder but collateral damage. Going in there would cause innumerable more casualties than pursuing a more intelligent approach, and you know this full well - and still refuse any other approach. The case is rather clear here.
We're not talking "born poor" or "stoned". We're talking "facing starvation, with massive tankers ruining their only source of food, and a civil war destroying the country". You can shout random maxims about hard, honest work all you want. What those companies you support did was neither hard nor honest work, it was plain robbing, and now that people got fed up with it, everyone is facing the repercussions.
Storming a school in which there's a lunatic shooting children is alright. Storming a school and shooting randomly because someone's stealing a PC from it, is not. That's the difference you're failing to grasp.
EDIT
Just curious, how much action did you see in the Desert Storm?
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 06:18 PM |
|
|
|
I don't get it - some people are trying to explain plain everyday things to a person whose thinking is trapped inside a microscopic box with mostly imaginary content, despite the obvious lack of sentient response from the other end. Why do you bother? I mean - really, what's the point?
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 06:41 PM |
|
|
Well, that's of course because I...
I...
*blinks*
Where... where am I? Zenofex, is that you?
*glances back at the discussion*
What's... I wrote all this?
What vile sorcery...?
Goddamnit. It was Elodin again, wasn't it.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
| |
|
|
