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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Is white the new black?
Thread: Is white the new black? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 26, 2011 08:53 PM

If everyone here had to link references about what they say they did or they do and how important they are, many will be in big trouble. Maybe would be a good idea, if simple allegations are not enough anymore. Using the real name should provide enough informations on the web if there are any.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2011 08:58 PM
Edited by Fauch at 20:59, 26 May 2011.

mvass : for example?

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 26, 2011 09:23 PM

Quote:
mvass : for example?

In lieu of an immediate response from mvass, may I?

Without details from the study (which was the whole point of me asking for the study), it's impossible to know how broadly the conclusion can be applied, or if it can applied at all.  Here are some possible questions I would want to have answered.

What regions of the country were the applications sent to?
What were the positive and negative controls?
What kinds of jobs were applied for?  Were certain jobs more likely to exhibit "discriminatory effects"?
Were the results statistically significant?
Who evaluated the applications, and how were they evaluated?
Has the trend changed over time?
Were reasons given why certain people did not get the jobs?

Allegedly, the only difference was a name - how was it determined that race was the separating factor, rather than some other psycho-social factor related to the names that were chosen?  That is, how do you know it wasn't religious discrimination?  By the way, sexual and racial discrimination are two very different things with very different underlying causes - it seems suspect to me that a well-designed scientific study would simultaneously try to test for both of them.  

There are literally hundreds of things to consider, and yet we know nothing about the study other than that three names were used and (seemingly) more white males got jobs than blacks or women.  Maybe racism was the reason, but I don't think it can be concluded with certainty from the information is provided.

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Smithey
Smithey


Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
posted May 26, 2011 09:52 PM
Edited by Smithey at 23:20, 26 May 2011.

@Corribus

Dang....Huge edit :


Quote:
What regions of the country were the applications sent to?

Nothing on the west coast, to the best of my recollection New York, Chicago, Boston, DC, Houston and Philadelphia via e-mails.

Quote:
What were the positive and negative controls?

I'm not sure I recell the proper definition of those two but if I'm right then there were none....

Quote:
What kinds of jobs were applied for?  Were certain jobs more likely to exhibit "discriminatory effects"?

Jobs within the business district only, wall street, banks, marketing firms, strategy firms, management etc...
No, we had zero expectations, it was a class about statistical research methods, paper's main objective was for us to learn how to anlyze data via statistical tools such as stata, linear regression correlation, those sort of things were examined if it means anything to you...

Quote:
Were the results statistically significant?

According to the T-test yes, again if that means anything to you...

Quote:
Who evaluated the applications, and how were they evaluated?

Sent via mail, positive response was marked as 1, negative as 0, who or how it was evaluated in any of the firms is unknown to me..

Quote:
Has the trend changed over time?

As stated before, it was a paper, not a scientific research aiming to be published, we were a bit shocked by the results, had a few jokes about it, got our grades and went back to enjoying college life..

Quote:
Were reasons given why certain people did not get the jobs?

Of course not, we didn't feel like we should put any of the firms in a bad position and investigate the matter further.
We sent the mails with the CV's and we got one of the following responses from the firms :
1. Ignored CV
2. Thank you for your application but we are not looking to hire ATM
3. We liked your CV and we would like to schedule an interview.

Quote:
Allegedly, the only difference was a name - how was it determined that race was the separating factor, rather than some other psycho-social factor related to the names that were chosen?

The only difference between the CV's was the name, we had no way of knowing what the cause actually was, if you are asking whether it is possible that who ever evaluated the application was assaulted 2 weeks ago by a man who is also called Jamal just like the one in the application ? yes it is possible, it is also possible that some of the CV's never reached the right address, it's even possible that whoever evaluated the CV did't even know that Rasheed is an african American name ?
Yes it is all possible as there are thousands of possible factors one can think of however whenever people are involved one can never run a perfect test...
We played with the names, we got our results, was it ethical ? is it beyond any doubt proving anything ? I really can't say, all I know is that I'm aware of the fact that racism exists, I have witnessed it many times all around the globe, and yes I still found those results to be a bit shocking.
Am I disturbed by it ? On some levels yes but I won't pretend and lie, I am a white male so as harsh as it might sound, it's not one of my problems, I know how I treat people, there is nothing I can do about how others treat them, it's not my fight...

Quote:
That is, how do you know it wasn't religious discrimination?  By the way, sexual and racial discrimination are two very different things with very different underlying causes - it seems suspect to me that a well-designed scientific study would simultaneously try to test for both of them.

We have used names such as Deja,Precious,Jada,Ebony,Deandre, Jamal,Jalen etc as opposed to more white sounding names such as Elizabeth, Katie etc, as stated before I can't possibly know the answer to why, the only thing we did is gather the data and analyze it statistically, and I wouldn't call it a " well-designed scientific study" as it was just a paper in one of the classes,,, but thanks

Quote:
There are literally hundreds of things to consider, and yet we know nothing about the study other than that three names were used and (seemingly) more white males got jobs than blacks or women.  Maybe racism was the reason, but I don't think it can be concluded with certainty from the information is provided.

We used more than three names but yes, I agree with you and I quote myself "as long as human factor is involved there is no way to run an experiment with complete certainty"

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 26, 2011 09:58 PM
Edited by Corribus at 22:12, 26 May 2011.

For the record, I already tempered my last reply to you, which was unnecessarily antagonistic.  You may see the new one if you wish by going back one page.

Also for the record, my opening post asked a question; it did not state a position or provide an answer to that question.

Therefore, nobody in this thread agreed or disagreed with the original post.  At best they agreed with part of the article I linked to, but I did not endorse that article at all, so please don't pin an opinion on me that I haven't expressed.

EDIT: It's harder to search for the study without an author.  May I ask - what was the lead investigator's name?  If you'd prefer you can HCM me.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2011 10:19 PM

I think smithey said that most of the top positions are hold by white males.
may it be something like white males are more likely to hire white males, black males more likely to hire black males and girls more likely to hire girl for exemple?

that is to say, not exactly racism, but rather some kind of support for a community to which you think you belong?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 26, 2011 10:34 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 22:41, 26 May 2011.

With a pure black holding the top position in the world atm, I guess the question of racism/not racism is solved.

Quote:
and girls more likely to hire girl


lol Fauch, that was great. In a country of amazons the king will certainly be a queen.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2011 11:04 PM

Fauch:
I suspect the difference between Shaniqua Johnson (black) and Mary Johnson (black) would be greater than between Mary Johnson (black) and Mary Johnson (white), all other things held constant. The discrimination would come from the suspicion that someone named "Shaniqua" grew up in the ghetto and was brought up in ghetto culture - possibly raised by the kind of people who would name her Shaniqua. Parents who want their kids to succeed will give them normal names.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 26, 2011 11:31 PM

Quote:
Fauch:
I suspect the difference between Shaniqua Johnson (black) and Mary Johnson (black) would be greater than between Mary Johnson (black) and Mary Johnson (white), all other things held constant. The discrimination would come from the suspicion that someone named "Shaniqua" grew up in the ghetto and was brought up in ghetto culture - possibly raised by the kind of people who would name her Shaniqua. Parents who want their kids to succeed will give them normal names.

If I may expand upon mvass's reply, the point is that this study (or at least, my impression of it from what I've read) relies on the assumption that any kind of judgement a person makes based on a person's name are entirely race-based.  However, this is not the case.  If I decide to hire John Adams over Abdul Mohammad, based only on their names, it might be because I'm anti-black, it might be because I'm anti-muslim, it might be because I happened to know three Abduls that I personally didn't like, and it might even be because I'm sexist (if I don't know what kind of gender designation Abdul has).  It might even be something entirely practical, like the fact that Adams comes before Mohammad in the alphabet.  That's why controls are so important.  It's impossible to know right now what kind of controls the study had - but a lot can be read into a name beyond just a person's race.

@Smithey

Will get to yours later.

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Smithey
Smithey


Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
posted May 26, 2011 11:34 PM

@Corribus, I've edited my post as well, however I hope you do realize that even if I "bite back" it is just me responding in a certain way because of my subjective sense of fairness, it doesn't mean I got offended, it doesn't mean I'll hold a grudge.
I forget about it in 10 minutes so if I had offended you I'm sorry and I do hope you share my "short memory coping mechanism".

@Fauch, my fav French man
Quote:
I think smithey said that most of the top positions are hold by white males.
may it be something like white males are more likely to hire white males, black males more likely to hire black males and girls more likely to hire girl for exemple?

that is to say, not exactly racism, but rather some kind of support for a community to which you think you belong?


All I can say to this is - "Glass ceiling" - refers to the unseen, yet unbreachable barrier that keeps minorities and women from rising to the upper rungs of the corporate ladder, regardless of their qualifications or achievements.

The most absurd thing is that those women and black males who breach the so called Glass ceiling tend to use it themselves on other women and black males (not always of course but in many cases, something along the lines of the one being bullied at home will bully others, the one who was molested as a child might molest other kids when he grows up.... human psyche, funny thing)

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2011 11:39 PM
Edited by Fauch at 23:42, 26 May 2011.

mvass : yes, that wasn't an example to take literally, the idea was just the feeling to belong to a community.

off topic : I was just wondering what was the point of editing your messages? it's not like it will change the past, I think that apologizing is enough.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted May 26, 2011 11:51 PM
Edited by Corribus at 23:52, 26 May 2011.

@Smithey -
I don't take anything here too seriously even if I do allow myself to get my feathers briefly ruffled from time to time.  I think I usually am fairly good at weathering emotional thunderstorms but even I can't be perfect all the time.

@Fauch
No particular reason.  I just reread what I wrote and what he wrote and saw where the misunderstanding likely was.  Didn't see the need to let it become a permanent part of HC's history since most people probably hadn't seen it yet.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2011 11:58 PM

big brother

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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
posted May 27, 2011 02:33 AM

Quote:
For the 2000s, 11 per cent of whites gave anti-white bias the maximum 10 out of 10 rating, compared with only two per cent of whites who did so for anti-black bias.



This really appears to have skewed the results.  I think in the proper context these white folk might have taken the poll more seriously and not reflexively chalked up a "ten" for how anti-white they think america has become.  

Just based on my own observations I'd say that the affirmative-action/white-guilt force in America is roughly balancing the "don't want to hire black people" force.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted May 27, 2011 06:12 AM

City Loses Multi-Million Dollar Reverse-Discrimination Case

Quote:

Monica Evans, edited by Jason Vaughn

4:52 p.m. CST, January 27, 2011
KANSAS CITY, MO.—
The City of Kansas City, for the second time in a week, is on the losing end of a multi-million dollar employment discrimination lawsuit after a jury on Thursday awarded two former city employees who said that they were the target of reverse discrimination over $2 million in damages.

Jordan Griffin and Coleen Low, both former analysts for the city, were awarded $345,000 and $517,000, respectively, by a Jackson County jury. Griffin, a former senior analyst and acting commissioner of Revenue, says that she was dubbed "White Chocolate" in the false belief that she would favor minority hires. Griffin says she was harassed when she didn't participate in the biased-hiring practice.

"I was expected to be anti-white, not fair and impartial," said Griffin, who says that she was never allowed to interview for the commissioner of Revenue position on a permanent basis because it was pre-determined that the position would be filled by an African-American.

"You dont judge people my the color of their skin and you don't retaliate against them for trying to stand up for their rights," said Griffin."Let's pick the right person, the most qualified person for a job."

When senior analyst Coleen Low spoke up in Griffin's behalf, she says that the city laid her off.

"I let my boss know that I didn't feel it was fair the way they were treating her, and apparently that made me a target as well," said Low.

While the jury ruled in favor of the former employees, Saskia Jacobs, the city's assistant city attorney, says the city did nothing wrong.

"We believe that the reduction in force was a bonified reduction in force," said Jacobs. "The City laid off approximately 75 people that year of which these two were (among), and we believe it was not based on age or race or retaliation for anything."

Griffin and Low say that they hope the verdict speaks loud and clear and forces the Kansas City to rethink its policies and practices. In addition to the compensatory damages, the former employees were also awarded $900,000 a piece in punitive damages. But under Missouri state law, half of that award will go to the state.


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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted May 27, 2011 06:35 AM
Edited by Elodin at 06:39, 27 May 2011.

Obama's Dept of Justice throws public safety to the wind in order to implement affirmative action.

City agrees to lower test scores for police exam

Quote:

DAYTON — The city’s Civil Service Board and the U.S. Department of Justice have agreed on a lower passing score for the police recruit exam after it was rejected because not enough blacks passed the exam.

The city lowered both written exams a combined 15 points that resulted in 258 more people passing the exam, according to a statement released Thursday by Civil Service officials. The agreement allows the city to immediately resume its plans to hire police and firefighters.

The original passing scores determined by Civil Service required candidates to answer 57 of 86 (66 percent) questions correctly on one portion and 73 of 102 (72 percent) on the other. The lowered benchmark requires candidates to answer 50 of 86 (58 percent) questions correctly and 64 of 102 (63 percent) of questions on the other.

A total of 748 people passed the exam under the new benchmarks. It is unclear the demographics of those who passed.

The passing candidates will undergo preliminary background checks and, once that hurdle is cleared, will be subject to an oral interview. Those dates have not been determined.

The Justice Department’s rejection of the passing scores last month delayed the city’s firefighter’s exam that was slated for April 2. A makeup date has yet to be set for the exam.

The city said it wants to put new hires on the street in both police and fire departments by next year to replace dozens of retirees that have left public safety forces near all-time lows.




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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted May 27, 2011 06:39 AM
Edited by gnomes2169 at 06:55, 27 May 2011.

@ Elodin: Wrong thread much?

Edit: Just had to add that picture at the end to spite me, didn't yah, Ely?
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted May 27, 2011 07:02 AM
Edited by Elodin at 07:05, 27 May 2011.

No, gnome, just posting the facts. I do my research.

A scary fact is that the Supreme Court is divided on the issue of affirmative discrimination. The 5 Constitutionalists reject affirmative discrimination while the 4 liberal judicial activists all voted for discrimination. If Obama manages to appoint one more liberal to the Supreme Court the future looks bleak for judging a man based on the content of a man's character rather than the color of his skin.

Consider this recent Supreme Court ruling.
Clicky

Quote:

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that white firefighters in New Haven were subjected to race discrimination when the city threw out a promotional examination on which they had done well and black firefighters poorly.

“The city rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white,” Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the majority, adding that the possibility of a lawsuit from minority firefighters was not a lawful justification for the city’s action.

“Fear of litigation alone,” Justice Kennedy wrote, “cannot justify an employer’s reliance on race to the detriment of individuals who passed the examinations and qualified for promotions.”


The 5-to-4 ruling, which reversed an appeals court decision joined by Judge Sonia Sotomayor, now a Supreme Court nominee, will have broad impact, lawyers specializing in employment discrimination law said.

.......

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, reading a dissenting statement from the bench, said the majority had undermined a crucial civil rights law. “Congress endeavored to promote equal opportunity in fact, and not simply in form,” she said. “The damage today’s decision does to that objective is untold.”
....


Justice Kennedy, writing for himself and the four members of the court’s conservative wing, said the case required the court to try to reconcile two aspects of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits race discrimination in employment.

The “original, foundational” core of Title VII, Justice Kennedy wrote, prohibits intentional discrimination against individuals on the basis of race — “disparate treatment,” in the legal jargon. But the law also prohibits some seemingly neutral practices that have a “disparate impact” on members of racial groups.

.....

In a concurrence, Justice Scalia predicted that the court would soon have to reach the larger constitutional question. “The war between disparate impact and equal protection will be waged sooner or later,” he wrote, “and it behooves us to begin thinking about how — and on what terms — to make peace between them.”

....

In her statement from the bench, Justice Ginsburg said the firefighters who sued “understandably attract the court’s empathy.” (In her written dissent, she said the plaintiffs “attract this court’s sympathy.”)

Justice Alito, in his concurrence, said that was not enough.

“ ‘Sympathy’ is not what petitioners have a right to demand,” Justice Alito wrote. “What they have a right to demand is evenhanded enforcement of the law — of Title VII’s prohibition against discrimination based on race. And that is what, until today’s decision, has been denied them.”


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gnomes2169
gnomes2169


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
posted May 27, 2011 07:23 AM

But wait, weren't they scoring 14-15 points lower than the minimum requirement? Where is the racism in that?

I'm willing to bet that that is what the "liberals" were thinking of.

Off topic: A little look-see at the origins of the words Liberal and Conservative, as stated by dictionary.com:
Quote:

Liberal:
1.favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

2.( often initial capital letter ) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

3.of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.

Synonyms: Progressive, broad-minded, unprejudiced, beneficent, charitable, openhanded, munificent, unstinting, lavish. See generous. See ample.

Antonyms (opposites): Reactionary, intolerant, niggardly.

Conservative:
1.disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

2.cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate.

3.traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.

Synonyms: Couldn't find any

Antonyms: couldn't find any

Please, comment. Or just ignore it. The most unbiased site out there must obviously run by communists.

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Smithey
Smithey


Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
posted May 27, 2011 07:28 AM

Elodin, showing 5 cases aren't facts strong enough to support anything (you can dig up at least 1000 more but it's not proving anything as those are just isolated cases)
in a same manner that showing ten wrongfully accused criminals won't prove that law system isn't working,
in a same manner that showing ten pedophile pastors won't prove that church supports pedophilia,
in a same manner that showing ten suicide bombers won't prove that islam is bad,
in a same manner that showing ten atheist serial killers won't prove that ahteists are psychos....
You're starting to bore with that already, grow up and evolve yourself

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