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| Thread: Dr. Kevorkian dead |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted June 07, 2011 10:46 PM |
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Quote:
Consequences of death:
Person is dead/afterlife
Pff,i wonder what afterlife has to do with assisted dheath.
If we are free,we should be free to choose wether we want to live or not.Even more in cases such as alzheimers disease,coma,cancer...
You know ppl in europe can choose not to take medications against cancer if they choose to.They have horrible side effects.So they choose to live their remaining time outside,with hteir family instead stayiing in bed.
People who dont have real chances to live normally shoukld have the chance to terminate their lives ifd they wish to.If they are not cabable if doing so or thinking,their family members should decide.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 08, 2011 04:50 AM |
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Quote:
I don't believe human life is cheap and worthless so I am opposed to assisted suicide. Assisted suicide leads to heavily encouraged or forced suicide and an out for murder.
LOL! Yeah. "Hey guys suicide is now legal! Come on, start killing yourselves! You know you want eet!"
Here's a reality check for ya: Life is not precious, it's an accident. What aweful inconvenient truth, isn't it? 
But hey, I fully understand if people rather see suicidal folks jumping in front of trains and giving innocent people a trauma to boot, just because they couldn't be assisted peacefully in their suicide.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted June 08, 2011 12:53 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 12:55, 08 Jun 2011.
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Yes while I'm not sure about the worth of discussing gods oppinion on assisted suicide in here I can tell you for a fact that your posts which do nothing but hate on Elodin and Christians aren't doing anything for anyone in here so if that's all you came here to say I suggest you move on or I will ask for you to be removed .
Thank you.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted June 08, 2011 05:02 PM |
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That's all cool and dandy but lets not make this about whether Elodin interprets the word of god to fit his own beliefs. This is or rather was still about assisted suicide.
You can have a point as much as you want to JJ but even if you were to succeed wouldn't it be of very little relevance to the topic whether god allows suicide or not?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 08, 2011 05:09 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:16, 09 Jun 2011.
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Maybe I'm the weird one out but I honestly don't see why obvious fallacies and dumb statements should be countered with reason.
It's probably me.
Not to mention if there is ANYONE on this forum who is the master of mixing religious believes with scientific facts and passing out underhanded insults in the form of generalizations of opinions-turned-fact and then calling out others on even the faintest insult like a child, it is him.
My logic is pretty simple, really. It acts like a child, treat it like one.
But I've long since understood I'm probably the only one with a bit of sanity left here.
HC seems to care more about "friendly interaction" rather than a good argument or quality of reasoning, seeing as all the garbage that is allowed to be written but the moment you try to write down tits it gets cencored.
[Edit] Wow, it didn't? That's new to me. Progress.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 08, 2011 05:21 PM |
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This is all nice and such but you guys realise this whole discussion about god, bible, elodin, elodin's version of the bible and his world views is completely off topic?
Elodin said he considers this immoral because of the bible. End of discussion for him, elodin leaves, others continue the discussion about morality and ethics as usual.
Oh wait, somehow something did not go as it should...
@Azz:
Depends on who 'we' are.
PS. Maybe you guys should make a different topic about where ethichs and morals come from, if I remember correctly it was quit ethe debate with philosophers some time ago and still isn't finished. Are they from god(s), logical thinking, learned or innate were the main positions if I remember correctly.
Now back to the topic.
How is killing yourself only thinking of yourself? People who decide to kill themselves to lessen the financial/emotional/psychological burden on their friends and family are very much thinking of others too and I believe not a single person kills himself without thinking of others too. It is simply not possible to not be aware of the consequences(if you aren't completely retarded of course).
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted June 08, 2011 06:38 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:20, 09 Jun 2011.
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will I care about this discussion. I'm saying is that it's not helping.
The point is that Elodin had every right to bring up religion here since this was a question about your point of view on assisted suicide. Religion is his core value therefor he explained why he thought that for him assisted suicide is a no-go quoting the bible to underline his argument. It's like Joonas said Elodin said it's bad because HE BELIEVES it says so in the bible then we moved on. But JJ decided to challenge Elodins point where he claimed that it definetly says so in the bible that suicide is wrong and that it wasn't his oppinion but cold fact. JJ may have been perfectly right to challenge Elodins assumption but that's where this whole thing spiralled out of controle and went off topic, not the second Elodin posted something willam.
I just want this to be fair and save this topic somehow since I think it's an interesting topic T_T.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 08, 2011 11:30 PM |
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This thread needs some serious cleaning. Stick to the topics, and not the person posting them. Doesn't matter if you think the person is right or not, argue with facts, not personal attacks.
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 09, 2011 04:39 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 04:42, 09 Jun 2011.
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@JJ
Quote:
Who cares about what God says?
Of course anyone who believes God exists, which is most people who have ever lived, care about what God says. Anyone would have to be insane to believe God exists but not to care what God says.
Quote:
There is no passage in the Bible where God or Jesus says something about suicide.
The Bible does teach against suicide by teaching a number of principles that suicide violates in addition to the commandment not to murder:
1) The Bible says in many places that everything and everyone belongs to God.
Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
2) The Bible says God requires us to be good stewards of our talents, time, and other resources. Committing suicide is casting all of that away, not being a good steward of our life.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
3) Jesus said to trust in God. Suicide is a faithless act that is the opposite of trusting in God.
Quote:
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Psalms 33:
20 We wait in hope for the LORD;
he is our help and our shield.
21 In him our hearts rejoice,
for we trust in his holy name.
22 May your unfailing love be with us, LORD,
even as we put our hope in you.
Quote:
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
4) The Bible says "Thou shalt not kill." It does not say, "Thou shalt not murder others but thou mayest murder thineself." I'll already quoted a verse that says everyone belongs to God. Each life belongs to God and "your life" is not yours to take.
5) The Bible teaches that God will not allow you to be burdened with any situation that you can't bear.
Quote:
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Challenges can at first be overwhelming. But challenges should be met and overcome not fled from. Suicide is throwing in the towel.
6) The Bible teaches God has a purpose for everyone. God's gift is abundant life, not death. His purpose therefore will never be that you kill yourself.
Quote:
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Quote:
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
7) The Bible teaches that mankind is made in the image of God. Killing yourself is treating that image with disrespect. That is one of the reasons why God said those who murder others are to be put to death by the community.
Quote:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
@Moon
Quote:
Here's a reality check for ya: Life is not precious, it's an accident. What aweful inconvenient truth, isn't it?
You are entitled to your faith. However most people do believe in life after death and do believe life is precious and do not believe life is "an accident." You should consider that to be a reality check.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2011 05:45 AM |
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Elodin:
Quote:
Anyone would have to be insane to believe God exists but not to care what God says.
What about deists?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 09, 2011 07:30 AM |
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Quote:
Elodin:
Quote:
Anyone would have to be insane to believe God exists but not to care what God says.
What about deists?
Deists believe God exists but that he does not care about anyone or anything and is utterly uninterested in his creation. They don't believe God interacts with his creation. Thus it is not that they don't care about what he says but that think he says nothing at all to mankind. A strange theology indeed.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2011 09:31 AM |
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Let's sum up:
Everything god says to the issue - if he says anything at all - is completely beside the point. Neither the US nor the European countries are "God states" and laws are not required to agree with what God says. Case in point: Laws about homosexuality.
This is also reasonable: in countries with religious freedom you can't have different laws for different religions. It would be silly to allow assisted suicide for atheists and forbid it for Christians. The law must find a reasoning beyond the limits of religion, a reasoning that is valid for all people no matter their religion.
This would make any debate about whether God actually forbids every kind of suicide (and every kind of killing) or not off-topic - sorry for walking that road; I should have known better.
However, this actually rules out a religious discussion as well. The usual practise is, that things are not allowed or forbidden because a specific religion allows or forbids them. In fact, IF a specific religion forbids something that the general laws allows, you can rely on people of that religion abstaining from making use of that law.
This means, if a religion is indeed declaring all kinds of suicide off limits, it's clear that believers will abstain from both suicide and assisting in it.
The rest, however, may not, so we have to find reasons relevant for society, not for God, to either allow or not allow to assist with suicide.
NOTE: It makes no sense to outlaw or criminalize suicide. The only thing worth looking at is ATTEMPTED suicide and ASSISTED suicide.
This is because every person has means and opportunity to take their own life, and if it succeeds, perpetrator and victim alike are forever gone.
Now, everyone can claim that something was "assisted suicide" when in fact it was murder. I see TWO serious cases that CAN be debated:
a) The potential suicide victim is too weak or ill or handicapped to do it him/herself.
b) The potential suicide victim could technically do it, but hasn't got a good means or is lacking the guts.
I'd say, these are the only cases in which assisted suicide is to be considered.
Case a: Here we would need two things: 1) At least two independent medical expertises that the person in question has no hope to recover short of a miracle; 2) the testified statement of the person in question that "it's enought".
Case b: Since this means the potential victim has opportunities to act/is mobile in some way, this case is more complicated; we would have to ascertain that the reason for the termination wish cannot be cured by psychology, pain therapy and so on. So we would need at least two independent expertises that the state the potential victim is in cannot better short of a miracle and that all treatments has been tried without success; if there is still 2) the testified statement, I see no reason not to supply the means.
What I'm unsure of is the help, though. If the potential victim IS mobile, it is certainly possible that he/she personally presses the button that will allow the overdose to flood the bloodstream or something, and if the desperation IS big enough, that shouldn't be a problem either - if it was, then maybe the time wouldn't be right.
Which would be my stance on it.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 09, 2011 03:58 PM |
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Elodin,
Quote:
Of course anyone who believes God exists, which is most people who have ever lived, care about what God says.
In all fairness:
(1) The proportion of people right now who believe in the Judeo-Christian god (i.e., Muslims, Christians, Jews) is a scant majority of the world's population. According to the CIA World Factbook, ~33% of the world's population is Christian, ~21% Muslim, and <0.25% are Jews, putting the amount of the world's population who believes in "God" at about 54%. (The remainder aren't atheists, of course - they believe in other gods or such-and-such, and include Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc. Atheists are at about 2.3% right now, btw.) Insofar as 46% of the world population doesn't believe God exists (and thus doesn't give a lick about what the Bible, Koran or Torah - not to mention God - says), I think it's a stretch to say that "most people" alive now believe God exists.
(2) Furthermore, Islam has been around for only about 1400 years, and Christianity not much longer - a mere fraction of modern humans' 50,000 - 200,000 year history (depending on your metric). Even Judaism's 5000 or so year history is but a drop in the bucket. So if we add up all the people who have ever lived, my guess is that the number of Judeo-Christian believers isn't probably even a majority.
(3) Even among the people who identify themselves as Christian, Muslim or Jewish, I'd go out on a limb to say that a whole heaping lot of them don't actually care what God says, seeing as most of them ignore about half of it. If all these people really cared about what God said, would there be so much killing, stealing, adultury, and etc. in the world? You yourself have admitted that they shouldn't even be called Christians, because Christians can't hate. So of that 33% that identify themselves as Christians, is it not true that the actual number is much, much lower? Can a man who envy's his friend's ipod really care about what God says?
So, I'd say perhaps it's a wee bit of an overstatement to say that most people who have ever lived believe in God AND care about what he allegedly says or has allegedly said.
But then again, I'm just an objective, outside observer. 
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