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| Thread: Bored of the beta: a mini-review |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · NEXT» |
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 11:17 PM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 00:36, 09 Jul 2011.
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Bored of the beta: a mini-review
I've been playing the public beta a few times a week since it started. Unfortunately, even suprisingly considering my expectations, I am now thoroughly bored of it.
My overall impressions are:
The graphics are fantastic and the music is great.
The unit designs and animations are great.
Faction variety and number is acceptable, feels less limited than I expected.
Adventure maps are super boring so far, not enough buildings.
The new skill and magic system is terrible. I want random skills and mage guilds back.
The new resource system is fine, I don't miss the old one.
Zones of control are a great idea. The new creature tiers should also work well once balanced.
Town windows are a terrible, terrible mistake.
The interface is thoroughly boring but functions well.
Combat is fun and will be better when balanced.
The AI turn times are quite fast.
They've done well with artifacts, there are a lot of them and none appear to be game-breaking.
I have been playing the series since HOMM1 and I would love to be able to enjoy this game. However, now I've had time to get used to them, I find that many of the changes to the core mechanics in VI don't work for me at all. The impression I am left with so far is of a polished but incomplete and really rather boring game.
In particular, I have grown to really dislike the spell/ability system. I find that after working out the hero build I like, I take the exact same skills every single game. I don't even think about it. Level 5? That'll be snatch then. Random skills provided excitement and anticipation. Now it's just a predictable trudge down the same old road time after time.
The town window has been heavily discussed and everyone knows it as a distinct failure by now. Town screens are a defining feature of the series and have been removed without any good reason.
As things stand I can't see myself enjoying this game or spending time with it long-term as I have with HOMM2, 3 and 5. In terms of gameplay, HOMM5 after all patches and expansions had an awful lot going for it. This new game could have drawn on the decades of game design experience evolved through the series and could easily have been amazing. Instead, they decided to start from scratch and the result resembles heroes but is neither quite a proper HOMM game nor quite as good.
I dearly hope that the final release will change my mind, but so many of my dislikes about Heroes 6 are related to the core mechanics of the game that I am now quite pessimistic. I think that after a brief honeymoon period it could well fall short with the fans and newcomers alike.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 08, 2011 11:45 PM |
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Mostly agree with what you say. Not so much about skill predictability though, especially if you later try hotseat or online gaming. H5 had plenty of combinations but they were pretty much wasted on the AI, I only discovered how deep the game was after a year of online competitive gaming. New parameters will appear such as how to best use the map to your advantage, amount of towns, possible hero level, what the enemy faction is, your opponent's playstyle and so on.
Anyway for now I reserve the hope that weak or strong abilities will be fixed so that we avoid standard builds. The first step would be to even out the tears and blood paths..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 11:48 PM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 23:49, 08 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Mostly agree with what you say. Not so much about skill predictability though, especially if you later try hotseat or online gaming. H5 had plenty of combinations but they were pretty much wasted on the AI, I only discovered how deep the game was after a year of online competitive gaming. New parameters will appear such as how to best use the map to your advantage, amount of towns, possible hero level, what the enemy faction is, your opponent's playstyle and so on.
True, experienced players will have an advantage through this skill system, but in previous HOMMs it felt like you had to WORK for the build you wanted. Now you just take it.
Only my opinion of course, I'm sure that a lot of people will prefer the new system. It's not a deal breaker for me, if they can make the game more interesting in other ways I'll live with the skill system.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 08, 2011 11:50 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 23:51, 08 Jul 2011.
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How is the Blood and Tears system handled in Hotseat? I can see how it would be quite interesting when faced with moral decisions in singleplayer, but in multi...? How does it work?
"You ****ing asshat cheater!"
*You just flamed your opponent in chat! +10 BLOOD!*
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 11:51 PM |
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Quote:
True, experienced players will have an advantage through this skill system, but in previous HOMMs it felt like you had to WORK for the build you wanted.
Getting offered two random skills is work?
I love the new system. No more ****ing eagle eye and mysticism at level up. Never again.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 11:53 PM |
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They should have kept the old "Choose 1 out of 4 randomly selected skills" system when you level up BUT they should have made sure that pretty much ALL skills would be useful.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 08, 2011 11:56 PM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 00:01, 09 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
True, experienced players will have an advantage through this skill system, but in previous HOMMs it felt like you had to WORK for the build you wanted.
Getting offered two random skills is work?
I love the new system. No more ****ing eagle eye and mysticism at level up. Never again.
HOMM5 offered 4 skills and it was extremely rare that I had to take skills I really didn't want. Maybe it wasn't work for everyone but I had print outs of the skill wheel as a guide and I'd have an idea of what route I wanted to take. Having the random chance of whether I'd be offered a particular skill at a particular time made every level up quite exciting for me.
Now I don't have to think on level up. It's just level 2 okay pick logistics. That's something that I can only see getting worse with time, I doubt there will be many cases where I (or even a much better player, there are many) would have to think hard about skill choice.
Same with magic guilds, I'd always be super excited about building a new level of mage guild because of the anticipation of what might be in there. Now you just take whatever you want.
I have to admit that the system of fewer spells and cool down periods is good though. An alternative system that would also work okay and be more interesting might be random level ups but spells still being gained as abilities (i.e. spells being amongst the 4 random choices on level up).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 08, 2011 11:57 PM |
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Way I see it, it will do for now but needs more skills in the future  Especially faction unique abilities as H5 had.
But variety aside, the system's success or failure is more of a taste issue. And I do miss the guilds but I can accept this alternative gameplay, perhaps we will even get a kind of compromise in the future. The scrolls or artifacts that unlock certain spells are a good step in the direction. Maybe it's a long shot, who knows.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:04 AM |
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Quote:
HOMM5 offered 4 skills and it was extremely rare that I had to take skills I really didn't want. Maybe it wasn't work for everyone but I had print outs of the skill wheel as a guide and I'd have an idea of what route I wanted to take. Having the random chance of whether I'd be offered a particular skill at a particular time made every level up quite exciting for me.
It completely screwed up the chance of any solid strategy. Say, you want dark, hell, you NEED dark, but aren't offered it for 15 levels, hence you lose a match that was perfectly manageable otherwise, with a player three class below you.
Randomness belongs in single player games.It shouldn't screw up MP matchups.
Quote:
Now I don't have to think on level up. It's just level 2 okay pick logistics. That's something that I can only see getting worse with time, I doubt there will be many cases where I (or even a much better player, there are many) would have to think hard about skill choice.
It's beta and balance is off. It may as well change.
Randomness destroyed so many games it's not even funny.
I wrote an article about game balance, check it out, maybe you'll understand why I'm so against any sort of randomness in competitive games.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 09, 2011 12:04 AM |
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The downside of the old system is that you might get something that you don't need. The downside of the new one is that if the skills are not properly balanced, some of them will never be picked and the game will revolve around perfect templates. That said, currently roughly about half of the skills and spells are useless and not necessarily because other skills are better (i.e. useless by design). A lot of work will be needed to fix this and it's a high time we get a balancing patch. Next week perhaps?
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:12 AM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 00:14, 09 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
HOMM5 offered 4 skills and it was extremely rare that I had to take skills I really didn't want. Maybe it wasn't work for everyone but I had print outs of the skill wheel as a guide and I'd have an idea of what route I wanted to take. Having the random chance of whether I'd be offered a particular skill at a particular time made every level up quite exciting for me.
It completely screwed up the chance of any solid strategy. Say, you want dark, hell, you NEED dark, but aren't offered it for 15 levels, hence you lose a match that was perfectly manageable otherwise, with a player three class below you.
Randomness belongs in single player games.It shouldn't screw up MP matchups.
Randomness destroyed so many games it's not even funny.
I was late on the scene with competitive online HOMM so I can't comment with as much experience as others. However, I did find that player ratings were good predictors of player skill. This implies to me that random effects average out (as they'd statistically be expected to) over many games. Sure, a few matches in every hundred might be unfairly lost due to randomness, but doesn't that just give us MP noobs a tiny hope of a fighting chance?
In any case, making the whole game boring for the sake of competitive multiplayer in a game that most people don't play competitively isn't a good answer.
Elvin, I am willing to accept the possibility that more skills, faction specific abilities, finely balanced abilities and more impact of game state on optimal ability choices would make the system work. I just don't think that will be the case for a long time after release, maybe not for a couple of years / expansions. There is hope for the game though, it still has so much potential.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:14 AM |
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Quote:
Same with magic guilds, I'd always be super excited about building a new level of mage guild because of the anticipation of what might be in there. Now you just take whatever you want.
Yeah, anticipation. I can't count how many games I have lost because my opponent got Town portal and I got magic mirror. It's not even funny, we may as well toss a coin, heads, he wins, tails, he loses, instead of playing.
Random spells among which some are utter crap and some are "I WIN" button... yeah. Sure. Super fun. For players playing over and over against easy AI, maybe.
Quote:
In any case, making the whole game boring for the sake of competitive multiplayer in a game that most people don't play competitively isn't a good answer.
Maybe then strategy games aren't for you if you're bored because the way you earn skills is no longer a lotto draw?
If it's so much a big deal that you get RANDOM bonus, maybe a poker or lotto? 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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MagniBronzeb...
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:15 AM |
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H5 skill system was perfect. They should have kept it, like H3 kept the skill and magic system from H2, which was quite good for that age.
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:19 AM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 00:22, 09 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
Same with magic guilds, I'd always be super excited about building a new level of mage guild because of the anticipation of what might be in there. Now you just take whatever you want.
Yeah, anticipation. I can't count how many games I have lost because my opponent got Town portal and I got magic mirror. It's not even funny, we may as well toss a coin, heads, he wins, tails, he loses, instead of playing.
Random spells among which some are utter crap and some are "I WIN" button... yeah. Sure. Super fun. For players playing over and over against easy AI, maybe.
Mm, I do see your point. I guess it's a matter of taste. For a long time I was perfectly happy playing relaxed multiplayer games where I wouldn't really care if I won or lost. I was hoping to get a bit more competitive with H6, but if I don't enjoy playing it then there's no point.
In H6, town portal is already accessed through unique buildings. If all level 5 spells were useful, random spell-getting wouldn't be a problem at all. If I was making the game I'd also make it so that each faction had access to just one type of magic so that each faction's mage guild always contained usable spells. Sadly, I'm not in charge 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 09, 2011 12:21 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 00:23, 09 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
H5 skill system was perfect. They should have kept it, like H3 kept the skill and magic system from H2, which was quite good for that age.
Perfect? With the factions allocated skills that they almost always get and skills that they are almost impossible to get + only some of them were actually worth taking if you want to be competitive. It was just a mesmerized version of the Heroes III skill system with some changes for the better and some for the worse. Far from perfect in any case.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:22 AM |
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I'm not saying ofc that you don't have any valid points, cause you do I guess however that randomness isn't the solution. More skills, sure. Faction-unique skills, totally. good balance - great. Random level ups, not so much.
There is a reason why in EVERY competitive game under the sun (in sports at least), the rules are set in a way that limits random factor to bare minimum or none at all.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:24 AM |
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There's a huge imbalance between might and magic skills (especially rank 3 ones) where most might rank 3 skills are weak and useless (only Reinforcement III and Intimidation can potentially be really strong) while most rank 3 spells are plain insane (Chain Lightning, Implosion, Stasis, Teleport, Meditation, Puppet Master, Terror, Petrification, Frenzy, Retribution Aura III and Blind).
Might heroes feel very underwhelming as they don't feel like they're bringing any firepower to their army.
Also like others said, playing any hero of any faction feels too much alike. Except some very minor twists, you play a knight the same way you play a barbarian, a heretic or even a death knight. There are no differences between the tree skills (why does a death knight have leadership ? shouldn't a heretic NOT have access to leadership since morale is a weak point of his army ? etc...).
Also, as Elvin said, I hope we'll see some unique racial skills to make those tree feel more different.
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Crayfish
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:31 AM |
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Edited by Crayfish at 00:58, 09 Jul 2011.
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My vision of perfect skill trees:
Faction-specific, non-random, completely different but absolutely balanced 
Magic would be easy, as I've suggested a couple of times just give each faction one school of magic and boost the number of spells. It makes sense and in VI factions have obvious elemental themes so it'd be even more fitting than in previous games.
Might is a bit harder, but an awful lot could be done in terms of faction-specific might skills. It would just take a little imagination.
Magic heroes should have less access to the might tree, maybe just to realm skills and movement modifiers. Might heroes shouldn't have access to magic at all. They shouldn't even have mana but instead another bar e.g. command that charges war cries.
That would be cool. Every hero (might or magic) from every faction would have a different skill set and would play completely differently. Balancing would be a nightmare but it'd happen eventually and it would be totally awesome.
/dream
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conqr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:34 AM |
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Quote:
Random spells among which some are utter crap and some are "I WIN" button... yeah. Sure. Super fun. For players playing over and over against easy AI, maybe.
So true. Meteor shower vs chain lightning is such a good example (or arcane armor vs phoenix).
This beta really needs stability + simultanous turns + internet multiplayer. Of course it gets dull with crashes, load inconsistencies, imbalance 'spikes' when basically testing stats that migh already be obsolate (against yourself).
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vaeledrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2011 12:36 AM |
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Some times I wonder if you people forget that we still have one thing that really needs to be tested more and is currently stupidly impossible to test.
I am speaking about the whole blood/tears thing!
On paper at the very least, those skills do make might/magic heroes more unique and possibly less cookie cutter. Of course, right now it's pretty much impossible to get to 1,000 tears or blood, or both (imagine that).
But yeah anyways there you go, the whole system of tears/blood has the possibility of correcting all that 'heroes are kind of the same...' problem.
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