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| Thread: San Franscisco considers declaring ex-cons a protected minority group |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Elodin
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posted July 23, 2011 02:23 AM |
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San Franscisco considers declaring ex-cons a protected minority group
What do you think about this? I think their city council has gone insane. 80% of everyone released from prison in San Fransisco returns to prison for repeated crimes.
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A legislative proposal in San Francisco seeks to make ex-cons and felons a protected class, along with existing categories of residents like African-Americans, people with disabilities and pregnant women.
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According to The City's Human Rights Commission, San Francisco has the highest recidivism rate of any big city in California, almost 80 percent. With an influx of new prisoners set to be released because of the state's budget crisis, supporters argue felons need legal protections before they're disqualified simply because of their record, which could be decades old and for crimes that have nothing to do with the job they're hoping to get.
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Salamandre
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posted July 23, 2011 03:19 AM |
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It is dramatic that once you payed for your crime you are still having on your front "do not give him a job". I say if the job has nothing to do with the crime -ie he rapped teenager and now asking to be teacher- the past should not count. Today you can go in jail for almost nothing.
Except universities and schools, employees should not have the right to know your criminal record.
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blizzardboy
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posted July 23, 2011 03:24 AM |
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What is your reason for thinking universities and schools should have that right as opposed to various other workplaces?
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Salamandre
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posted July 23, 2011 03:27 AM |
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I just followed France laws, once you have a criminal record, you can't be hired to teach. I guess it has to do with the responsibility and high morals which -in theory- are required from someone pretending to be an example for others.
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blizzardboy
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posted July 23, 2011 03:36 AM |
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I think the real reason is that people are extra paranoid where their children are concerned, so such measures got pushed through (not that I really blame them). In reality, I think there are various workplaces where a person with such a record could pose just as much of a concern.
It's a difficult issue because if a criminal gets out of a jail and has jack**** for options, you can't be overly surprised if they end up in trouble again a year down the road. I don't know how nice it is though to tell a store manager that they're not allowed to know if the person they're hiring to work in their store is a kleptomaniac.
Unless somebody did something really ****ed up, I will say (not through personal experience but secondary observation  ) that getting hired with a criminal mark isn't as hard as some people make it out to be. There's lots of guys with a routy past that can find work with construction, maintenance, etc. What becomes trickier is trying to find work with higher wages.
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Salamandre
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posted July 23, 2011 03:46 AM |
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I don't know for other countries, but in France for example you have 3 subfolders to your criminal record. Subfolder 1 and 2 are for minor crimes (drive, problems with taxes, minor things), but the third is about harsh crimes. The 1st and 2nd are deleted after a few years, while the third remains for life. An employee can ask for the third, but never for first and second, which gives a chance to reinsert after a while.
If a "criminal" is automatically excluded from society once he gets out, he has no other options but to commit again crime, I guess.
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blizzardboy
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posted July 23, 2011 03:54 AM |
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I like the general idea of that, except I think it should also factor in if a person has multiple records of a crime, even if it's a minor one. If a person has been caught for petty theft several times, it's suggestive of a habit.
Sometimes things vanish after X amount of time, similar to how a person can gradually repair their credit through years of timely paying their bills. I don't honestly know much how it works in the States but I've heard people mention things like that before.
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OmegaDestroyer
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posted July 23, 2011 05:48 AM |
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Easily one of the most ridiculous things I've read coming out of San Francisco. I would not hire a criminal period. It's way too much of a libility to yourself, your business, and your clients.
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Corribus
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posted July 23, 2011 07:03 AM |
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Quote:
Easily one of the most ridiculous things I've read coming out of San Francisco.
And that's saying a lot.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 23, 2011 11:16 AM |
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Quote:
It is dramatic that once you payed for your crime you are still having on your front "do not give him a job". I say if the job has nothing to do with the crime -ie he rapped teenager and now asking to be teacher- the past should not count. Today you can go in jail for almost nothing.
Except universities and schools, employees should not have the right to know your criminal record.
That's seriously misunderstanding the problems of the penal system.
You are not "paying" for your crimes, when you go to jail. Instead you change into a different kind of society, and a different kind of life style. While it is called "correction", the longer the duration of that, the more it will change people into a social outsider.
In short, our system of correction is not integrational, but instead divisional. You "pay" for your crime by being forced into a different kind of society exclusively made of criminals and gaolers.
Consequently, and because of that, a "correction" for the worse is way more likely than a correction for the better.
I wouldn't give someone a job who has been in jail for, say, 7 years, not because of his previous crimes, but because of him or her living for 7 years in a jail, together with other criminals.
If a person hasn't been corrupted for life when they go to jail for the first time, jail is highly likely to finish the job for good.
Which means, as a conclusion, yes, San Franciscom is insane, because they should invest a bit of thought into a revision of their penal system instead of protecting criminals AFTER they have gone through it.
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Salamandre
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posted July 23, 2011 11:28 AM |
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It is interesting to see you disagree theoretically almost on every subject but not propose any alternative. So, what would be a valid penal system for you?
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Doomforge
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posted July 23, 2011 11:28 AM |
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It depends on severity of the crime, too.
I know a few people who went to jail for a short period of time for "lesser" crimes committed under the effect of alcohol. WHile I'm not trying to excuse them, they were penalized for something that's detectable in maybe 1% cases, so they are already highly unlucky that they got caught and sentenced for that while their mates are never bothered about it.
Such unfortunate young, stupid people can actually grow up to be responsible, even after a period of jail, however they are really screwed when the "jail" is stamped on their forehead and no employer wants them because of that.
Of course, severe criminals like murderers are a different story.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 23, 2011 11:51 AM |
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Quote:
It is interesting to see you disagree theoretically almost on every subject but not propose any alternative. So, what would be a valid penal system for you?
Now, wait a sec. The issue of this thread is a certain initiative of a certain town. My opinion is that the initiative is insane, and my reasoning is that the penal system is not working in a way that would support the initiative as useful.
With regard to this thread I do not have to sketch a better penal system at all. It's enough to say that the system is more likely to make real criminals out of thoughtless young people, than correcting real criminals into willing members of society, and that's why it makes no sense to enforce a protection of them WHEN IT'S TOO LATE, at least very often.
Also, your statement doesn't fit with your earler remarks about the situation in France with regard to crime and muslims. I can't imagine that you would offer crimional muslims a job.
If you want to discuss the penal system, make a thread about it.
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Salamandre
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posted July 23, 2011 12:35 PM |
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@JJ: I think that you transfer the problem by declining any own responsibility -and compassion- toward other people, regardless what they did at a certain moment of their life. It is dramatic, as I said before, to hear such theoretical opinions about "I would not give a job because he was in jail", followed by "once you were in jail, there is no left hope, you are doomed forever". How can you know? There are zillions of unique situations and every person can not be definite by one act only, even more after he "payed" for.
The prison is such a terrible place and the only hope you can have when getting out is to see the others giving you a second chance, otherwise you remain an outsider with very few possibilities other than crime. And such outsider is post-condemned by such opinions we see here.
Why do I feel strange the fact that the thread starter (obviously aggressive against) is the first supposed to forgive, help and love others, no matter what they did, at other times. Human is evolving, always.
PS: I would give a job to a muslim if he accepts to work by our european standards. Unfortunately they are not willing to and are backed by a bunch of penal facilities which makes working with them a future pain, always ending in court.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 23, 2011 12:56 PM |
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That's just lip service.
Go ahead with a good example, give an ex-criminal a job or trust them in any other way and then start telling others what they should do. I repeat that if my memory serves me right you are very strict in your opinion against muslims in France. How does that fit?
In any case it's a joke when society suddenly detect their heart for poor ex-criminals, because by then it's pretty darn late. It would be way better, if society would detect their heart somewhat earlier, when it still makes a real difference!
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Salamandre
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posted July 23, 2011 01:54 PM |
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The thread is about people getting jobs once out from jail, not about religious people who keeps saying they hear and see things others don't. Supposing I am the boss, I can't work with people acting illogical and wind arguing.
If everyone thinks as you, it would mean the prison is the end of life.
I was in and I am doing fine, thank you. Having an excellent job too 
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JollyJoker
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posted July 23, 2011 02:18 PM |
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It's still lip service.
Give someone a job who was in jail AND is a muslim, and we can talk again. Until then talk is very cheap.
Also, we are not talking about people who were in jail for a month due to repeated driving offenses.
We are talking about people who serve a long time in a STATE priseon, and if the state takes responsibility for the keeping and the correction of offenders, and if the state does this in a bad way, it's the darn state that has to take responsibility for the damage the correction facilities do and create jobs for offenders - not the common people who are supposed to take the risks. Not to mention that the state could do ALOT more for crime prevention.
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Elodin
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posted July 23, 2011 04:20 PM |
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@Salamandre
Quote:
@JJ: I think that you transfer the problem by declining any own responsibility -and compassion- toward other people, regardless what they did at a certain moment of their life. It is dramatic, as I said before, to hear such theoretical opinions about "I would not give a job because he was in jail", followed by "once you were in jail, there is no left hope, you are doomed forever". How can you know? There are zillions of unique situations and every person can not be definite by one act only, even more after he "payed" for.
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Why do I feel strange the fact that the thread starter (obviously aggressive against) is the first supposed to forgive, help and love others, no matter what they did, at other times. Human is evolving, always.
I'm not sure where you get the idea Christians should support the idea of special legal protection for criminals or that a Christian should disengage his brain and pretend a person did not commit certain acts. I can love someone but not trust them. I cannot see inside a person's heart. All I can look at are someone's actions. If they just got out of prison they are going to have to earn my trust.
Of course Jesus does teach that God forgives anyone who truly repents of their sins. Last time I checked repentance is not a term of being released from prison. A bank would be foolish to hire someone who was just released from prison who had robbed banks. A day care center would foolish to hire an ex-con who was a child-molester. Ex-cons should expect that they will have to earn people's trust back.
When a company decides to hire someone it is taking a risk. Not only in "Does the person really know the job; or does he have a work ethic; or will he steal from me" but they are risking that person causing them legal troubles. If I hire someone and he rapes or beats up another of my employees I am going to get sued. If I hire a druggie and his shoddy work causes someone to die I am going to get sued. Employers need to know what sort of person they are hiring.
Do ex-cons have a tougher time of finding a job? Yeah. So what? They have to earn people's trust back. They have no one but themselves to blame about others not trusting them. Rather than ex-cons whining that no one trusts them and seeking special protection from the legal system they should buckle down and show they are trustworthy. People are not going to trust an ex-con just because some government bureaucrat says to.
Quote:
The thread is about people getting jobs once out from jail, not about religious people who keeps saying they hear and see things others don't.
Or about people who don't hear what they should hear.
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Salamandre
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posted July 23, 2011 04:35 PM |
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The problem is that, once in jail, having to deal 1 week for fast driving or 10 years for sadistic murder is no different as treatment, it is equally disturbing and can broke someone. Maybe you should define what about is this thread, murderers or any guy thrown in a jail for minor things.
I remember the Pope visited the guy who tried to kill him once in jail and he said he forgives him. Not a move shared by all his followers, it seems.
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Corribus
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posted July 23, 2011 04:39 PM |
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Let's please veer away from discussion of religion in this thread. I don't see how it's very relevant.
Intereseting Elodin writes this:
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Do ex-cons have a tougher time of finding a job? Yeah. So what? They have to earn people's trust back.
In principle, that's not how it's supposed to work. In theory, you're supposed to go to jail for a period of time that society determines is necessary for you to "pay" for your crimes. When you get out, the crime is supposed to be considered paid for and everyone is supposed to move on. In principle it's supposed to be a debt system. Once you've paid the debt society says you owe, you're not supposed to be treated still as a debtor.
Of course, that's not the way it works in practice, because people hold resentment and they expect that the criminal will err again. Stigma is, in practice, a big part of the penalty a criminal must pay.
I'm not necessarily criticizing the fact of the matter; it is what it is. But stigma does nothing to reintegrate the criminal in society and, in some sense, leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy, creating an environment where the criminal will likely gravitate toward more crime. What's the solution? One thing is for sure: if people were perfect enough to not stigmatize a recently released criminal, there'd probably be no criminals in the first place.
So I'm not sure there IS a solution. 
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