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| Thread: Amy Winehouse found dead! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mvassilev
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posted July 25, 2011 08:14 AM |
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JJ:
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I'm sympathetic, because she isn't anonymous, but has a face.
She has a face, but unless you're a fan, friend/family member, or in the music industry, she affected you as much as the typical anonymous person. "I know her name and what she looks like" seem to be poor criteria for deciding whether to say anything about it or not. I could open my local newspaper's obituary section and make topics about people in it. Would you say the same thing about them, too? "She loved her children and grandchildren." "He loved his parents and his dog." "She loved music and doing drugs." In the end, a stranger is a stranger. I would expect anyone to mourn if their friend or family member died, but the death of a complete stranger is completely different.
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That's because I HAVE equal rights, the rights of my peers, plus a couple of priviledges that give me more rights than you. Which is just as well, because you have no feelings and no faith in God, and your utilitaristian/materialistic world view even denies the existance of everything that makes life worthy and gives it a purpose. We are definitely not similar, and in fact I doubt you are even human.
If you had more rights than me, then someone would probably have more rights than you. If we allowed the strong to do what they want and have no rule of law, the results wouldn't be good for anyone - including the strong. People hiring gangs of thugs to kill each other isn't a good existence even if you have the money to hire a lot of gangs. It's better to be middle class in a first world country than rich in Somalia.
I'll ignore the personal attack, as it's irrelevant to our discussion.
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Why would I give up any of my rights for the benefit of people I'm in doubt of whether I should even consider them human?
How do you propose distinguishing between those who are human and "doubtfully human"? They look the same and act the same in everyday life.
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I've no idea what it's based on, but unless I did miss something you cannot measure these things in any objective way, so opinions on these matters are not right or wrong, but simply ARE
In some cases, yes, opinions are truly subjective. In other cases, they don't follow from a person's basic principles. Amy Winehouse was doing something she liked and knew was risky. It's like going skydiving - you accept the risks. It was her choice. You can't compare that to people who had no choice and were killed by a crazy. They didn't accept anything, it was entirely against their will. If you think a person's life is their own, then the distinction is critical - one was doing what they wanted and the other wasn't.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted July 25, 2011 08:30 AM |
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Come on JJ, just drop it, its the same Nightterror phenomena of Im so unique all over again, people who are trying so hard are quite boring, let him live in his little world and just drop it.
In 5-10 years they will understand that being an ass isnt all that unique along with some of the basic concepts of life or.... they will be eaten alive, arguing over something as dumb as this is,,, well dumb 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2011 09:05 AM |
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MvassQuote:
I'll ignore the personal attack, as it's irrelevant to our discussion.
I greened and italicked that part not completely without reason, as I hope everyone realizes.
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She has a face, but unless you're a fan, friend/family member, or in the music industry, she affected you as much as the typical anonymous person.
How would you know what affects me in which way? It's a person I know OF, and that makes her A HUMAN LIKE MYSELF. In this way she's different from the anonymous rest I know nothing of. I can assume a lot about them, anything, in fact, every tragedy - there will be someone who's currently suffering from that. But I don't know OF them, and they have no face, so consequently this never leaves the realm of my imagination. That's why I sympathize with people I know OF. Because they are real, and I can put myself in their shoes.
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If you had more rights than me, then someone would probably have more rights than you. If we allowed the strong to do what they want and have no rule of law, the results wouldn't be good for anyone - including the strong. People hiring gangs of thugs to kill each other isn't a good existence even if you have the money to hire a lot of gangs. It's better to be middle class in a first world country than rich in Somalia.
You can safely leave my rights to me, I can cope, thank you, because I deal as an equal with my equals, but not with the rabble who is content to be middle class somewhere, provided it's worse somewhere else. What you think is better, is another difference between us.
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How do you propose distinguishing between those who are human and "doubtfully human"? They look the same and act the same in everyday life.
They certainly do not look the same! They are dirty, of a different color, clad themselves in a tasteless, ridiculous way and act like rabble devoid of any real feeling. I CAN distinguish, and that's enough for me.
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In some cases, yes, opinions are truly subjective. In other cases, they don't follow from a person's basic principles. Amy Winehouse was doing something she liked and knew was risky. It's like going skydiving - you accept the risks. It was her choice. You can't compare that to people who had no choice and were killed by a crazy. They didn't accept anything, it was entirely against their will. If you think a person's life is their own, then the distinction is critical - one was doing what they wanted and the other wasn't.
What are you trying to prove? That everyone should have completely rational reasons for what they may view as tragic or not, because otherwise they don't count, and that there are right viesw and wrong views and yours is right?
EDIT: Smithey, right. I should leave it be.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 25, 2011 04:33 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 16:10, 26 Jul 2011.
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In the end, a stranger is a stranger. I would expect anyone to mourn if their friend or family member died, but the death of a complete stranger is completely different.
Mvass,
I don't think people are expecting you to mourn. But they do expect you to behave with a little dignity and show some respect for the fact that other people may be mourning. The point is that while you may not personally value this person, other people - people who you know and, presumably, value in some small way (given that you interact with them here) - do.
Let's put it this way. Suppose you're at a party and you're talking to someone you have never met before, and you notice that he looks a little down. You ask him what is wrong and he says that he just found out an old college buddy died. You don't know this old college buddy at all, nor the guy you're talking to for that matter - both of them are completely anonymous to you. Would you actually say to this person: "Well, nothing of value was lost."?
If your answer here is yes, then you're either a psychopath because you lack the human ability to empathize with the emotions of others, or you're just a jerk with absolutely zero tact.
If your answer here is no, then you're just trying to cause a stir here at HC in order to get attention. Either that or you have some reason to specifically resent Amy Winehouse (you don't like her music, you hold her and people who like her music in contempt, whatever) and putting in that she had no value is just a malicious way to give yourself pleasure at the expense of other people. In which case you're not being honest with anyone and all this philosophical mumbo-jumbo about the subjective value of strangers is just carefully constructed white-wash.
Because the normal human reaction in this situation, even for those of us who hold our emotional cards close to our chests, is to tell the person, even a total stranger, that you're sorry that someone they valued is lost to them. We express condolences not only because it's a part of social decorum, but also because psychologically normal humans are able to project themselves into the emotional states of others and imagine how they might feel. That's called empathy. You're not supposed to feel bad because Amy Whinehouse was someone you valued. You're supposed to feel bad because people you know feel bad and because you're supposed to be able to imagine what it would be like if someone YOU valued died.
Amy Winehouse didn't mean squat to me. Yet she meant something to some people, and I feel bad for the people who liked her music. I wouldn't tell someone in real life who was upset because of this that "And nothing of value was lost" - even if I truly felt this way - because, to be blunt, I'm not a jerk.
But even beyond the tactfulness issue, I feel bad (not "my whole week is ruined" bad, but "sorry for your loss" bad) because I'm human. Recently I got an email saying that someone, a 34 year old man, in my employment organization had died of a brain tumor. The man had three young daughters (ages 3,5 and 7) and a wife. I'll be honest and say that I had some bad feelings when reading that email, despite the fact that the man was only a name to me. Had never heard of him before and probably never will hear his name again. He had no VALUE to me, but I felt bad, truly bad, so much that I called my wife to tell her so. Because I could put myself in that poor family's shoes for a moment, and imagine what it would be like for those little girls to grow up without their daddy, or the poor woman to lose the husband at such a young age. To imagine how awful it would be if *I* got cancer, and what my family would have to go through if *I* died. My thoughts were on that email quite some time, and obviously, given that I'm bringing it up now, still go there occasionally - probably because my ability to empathize with that situation is fairly great because I, too, have a daughter and a wife. Perhaps in a sense that means this person DID have value to me, by reminding me of my own mortality and the importance of family. Beyond that, though: not only would it be far beneath my dignity to SAY to someone else, even another person who did not know this man at all, that nothing of value was lost, I do not FEEL this way either.
Sorry, mvass, but no matter how you slice it, I shake my head in resignation at your posts in this thread.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 25, 2011 05:10 PM |
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I'm fairly certain he was trying to instigate the discussion he started in the Michael Jackson thread.
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TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
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posted July 25, 2011 05:24 PM |
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I just noticed your signature Bliz, and you know what? I lolled. Like a lolly-gagger.
@Corribus well said, it's just a shame that more people don't take a minute to put themselves in other people's shoes.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted July 25, 2011 05:35 PM |
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 25, 2011 08:49 PM |
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Btw, I find not knowing who Amy Winehouse is very absurd. But of course that's my opinion. Of course there can be even people who haven't heard of Madonna. Just wanted to say I'm surprised.
For the ones who didn't know her and how incredibly good and beatiful her voice was: Back To Black
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2011 12:44 AM |
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JJ:
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How would you know what affects me in which way? It's a person I know OF, and that makes her A HUMAN LIKE MYSELF.
So you care about people who have never affected you, objectively speaking. If you've never talked to them, used their work, or engaged in any kind of business with them, they could only affect you like it would a hobbyist. Some play fantasy football, some collect stamps, and you emphasize with people you don't know. That's fine. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.
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You can safely leave my rights to me, I can cope, thank you, because I deal as an equal with my equals, but not with the rabble who is content to be middle class somewhere
You're welcome to try, but you'll find that not many share your opinions and you will be prosecuted should you act on them in any way that violates current law.
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They certainly do not look the same! They are dirty, of a different color, clad themselves in a tasteless, ridiculous way and act like rabble devoid of any real feeling. I CAN distinguish, and that's enough for me.
You can distinguish, I'm sure, but unless you have a way of conveying this distinction to others and convincing them that it matters, the first time your code comes in conflict with the law, it will be you who is punished, not these "dirty" people.
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That everyone should have completely rational reasons for what they may view as tragic or not, because otherwise they don't count
No, only that there is no argument for why someone should emphasize with someone they never interacted with.
Corribus:
You're right, but you may be misunderstanding my position. There's a difference between an old college buddy dying and some singer whose music they occasionally enjoyed. Presumably the buddy was more important. In your scenario, I would indeed express my sympathy. But if the guy said, "[insert artist name here] died", my reaction would be somewhere between "Oh" and "Who cares?" depending on the artist. Also, you're equating the stranger whom I have never interacted with and the one I'm interacting with, and they're not the same. When I choose to converse with the person, I acknowledge that they matter (and he ceases to be anonymous to me), and thus sympathizing with them may be appropriate for me.
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Eccentric Opinion
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 26, 2011 03:38 AM |
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And Mvass is aknowledging the Monkey Sphere.
Random people is just random people, why should I even care? A person I do not know is a drone, for that is how I a few screws of my system say I should work.
If people can't accept something that simple, then at the least leave mvass alone for it.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 26, 2011 04:06 AM |
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Did anybody notice that the name of the thread is Amy "Whinehouse"?
Its Winehouse.
Also,you people should not derail it. It is not like "Mvass was found to be rude egoist guy".
My 2 cents for this one.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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JollyJoker
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posted July 26, 2011 08:17 AM |
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Mvass, a simple question:
Do you read books? Watch movies or TV series maybe?
If yes:
Do you take an interest in the characters in there? Feel something, anything, for those hypothetic persons and their fate? Feel for them?
If yes: How come? They are not even real people?
If no: How come? Everyone else does, otherwise no one would read novels and stories or watch movies and stuff.
This goes back to at least the old Greeks who developed the theatre as we still know it today, people watching tragedies and comedies and taking interest in it. Suffer with the tragic hero, maybe even shed a tear...
And isn't the reason that people can well imagine things to be real and playing a crucial part in it themselves? "Could be everyone." "Could even be me." "What if I have been there, what would I do?"
Not your cup of coffee, Mvass?
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted July 26, 2011 08:52 AM |
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So I guess the reaction of Mvass when he heard about the 68 deads on that norway island also was: "Who cares?...no value lost...", because he didn't know any of them.
You've lost all my respect Mvass, honestly.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted July 26, 2011 02:55 PM |
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So I guess the reaction of Mvass when he heard about the 68 deads on that norway island also was: "Who cares?...no value lost...", because he didn't know any of them.
You've lost all my respect Mvass, honestly.
AHEM!
I think this defines a "strawman".
I want the quoted post delete, for it is a insult.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2011 02:59 PM |
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JJ:
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If yes: How come? They are not even real people?
Because it's fun. No reason other than that. Also, even though they're not real, they're not strangers either.
angelito:
No, I thought, "I hope that murderer is brought to justice." It's horrible when innocent people are killed.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 26, 2011 03:54 PM |
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angelito:
No, I thought, "I hope that murderer is brought to justice." It's horrible when innocent people are killed.
And Amy Winehouse was not an innocent person for you because you don't like her music? Or because she died of the drugs?
What a hypocracy. What a lost human.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2011 07:40 PM |
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And Amy Winehouse was not an innocent person for you because you don't like her music?
Find me the place where I said that. And if you can't, learn reading comprehension.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Lexxan
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Unimpressed by your logic
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posted July 26, 2011 07:54 PM |
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I actually understand where Mvass is coming from, although I disagree with the way he said it. I'm not crying over mrs. Winehouse's death, and I definitely think she was way overrated as both an artist and a human being. Her death is not the effing end of the world, and the severity of which is indisputably blown out of proportion by her fantards. Just like Michael Jackson's was, two years ago.
Does this mean it is more correct to be minimizing her death? Maybe, after all she was ONE human which died in circumstances which -at the moment- don't have slightest scintilla of being tragic. Perhaps miserable or pathetic, but definitely not tragic. She WAS a complete trainwreck of a person and her death coming this early was anything but a surprise.
On the other hand, this is no excuse to be disrespectful to her memory, even if she wasn't... errr... successfull at living her life. If you are indifferent to her, then do not make insensetive remarks in her death thread. If you hated her (although that is rather relatively-speaking, because it is hard to truly *hate* someone you don't knox by person), then don't post altogether. Then you are just asking for trouble. It is indecent, unecessairy, crude and -no offence to any particular person (especially MVass)- stupid.
However, it is definitely RIDICULOUS to compare the planned murder massacre of 76 innocent Norwegian civilians and teenagers to the most likely self-induced death of a musician.
No offence again, but that is just plain stupid as well. Both are entirely unrelated in both severity and atrocity.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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bLiZzArdbOY
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 26, 2011 08:37 PM |
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Though the news reaches out according to what is relevant to most people's interests and curiosities, and in that regard, the death of a single very famous artist/performer is connected to a wider group of people than the combined # of the nonfamous people killed in Norway or even the combined # of nonfamous people that have been dying in Somalia. So I don't think it's ridiculous or wrong whenever a famous person dying often ends up making the headlines.
That being said, whenever I see the 'NewsPulse' on CNN (which shows the most popular articles being viewed) I am sometimes wow'ed at the articles that make it to the top of the list.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 26, 2011 08:45 PM |
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And Amy Winehouse was not an innocent person for you because you don't like her music?
Find me the place where I said that. And if you can't, learn reading comprehension.
Actually the complete thing is "And Amy Winehouse was not an innocent person for you because you don't like her music? Or because she died of the drugs? " As you can see there I'm asking the reason to you and that I don't know what your reason is. You are the one to learn to read it seems. Anyway, you've achieved to be the center of attention by showing the shameful attitude you have. So congratulations. The debate is over for me. And don't ever expect any respect from me whatsoever on any subject from now on.
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