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| Thread: Have they made capitol rushing to easy? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Zero47
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 31, 2011 03:25 PM |
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Have they made capitol rushing to easy?
Rushing for your capitol should be a trade off, weak early game for a huge economy boost. But it seems that in HoMM6 it's so easy to rush your capitol because there's no building requirement that there's hardly a reason not to do it. Even in small maps where a balanced build up (and especially a dwelling rush) should be superior capitol rush always wins.
Typically if you rush capitol the enemy can be in front of your gates with stacks of their week one core and one advanced unit in these maps. What happens? You sit back buy some heroes, and you have so much gold that you can trade for resourses without problems. Behind your walls you can then build up your dwellings extremely fast. The enemy will be to weakened from defeating neutrals to do anything most he can do is keep you in a chokehold while standing on one of your resource mines for a few days.
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted November 01, 2011 08:53 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 09:06, 01 Nov 2011.
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Since no-one else has answered:
Quote:
Rushing for your capitol should be a trade off...
You are right, in a
- well designed system with
- well designed map with
- correct monster selection/size/groups &
- correct map difficulty setting &
- correct resource abundance setting,
rushing for capitol should not be optimal because one should either have to recruit more monsters to deal & progress with creeps to get treaures/xp, and/or getting creature dwellings early in lieu of capitol first should give advantage later (if you have explore/kill/get enough gold/resources to keep building every day in first two weeks without capitol first, then you should have some numerical advantage).
[at least that's what I remember from H3]
I always liked the early choices between trying to squeeze out another creature dwelling/citadel/castle in 1st/2nd week or building for more income.
So at least one of the above must be an issue. All the maps provided so far may not be the best. Also H6 system does not start with level 1 & 2 creatures anymore, but level 3 equivalent plus healing/regen. (level 1 & 2 creatures had a bigger gap from levels 5,6,7 creatures) => creeping monster difficulty changed?
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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Zero47
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 01, 2011 09:12 AM |
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Indeed in H3 the trade off was in good balance.
I think a huge part of the imbalance is caused by nearly all factions being simply way too good at creeping. In H3 for example only the necro's could get this kind of early power (Animate Dead specialty, vampires) but it had real downsides. It's not really about neutral stacks being an X amount, it's about the fact that once your army reaches a certain point (day 2 on Haven and Necro) you just won't lose units while fighting against neutrals stacks that should be stronger than you.
Another factor is that there's no prerequisites for Capitol anymore, making it a really cheap and fast investment. The money then comes rolling in so fast that you can start using the market extensively to go straight to your dwellings.
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 10:26 AM |
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Yeah, Heroes III Capitol requires Castle, iirc, which in itself is a expensive building. Heroes V Capitol requires town level, which requires many buildings (some expensive ones too).
In Heroes VI... everything become streamlined. Ubihole really cut the kingdom management part and focus the game into the battle part.
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Metathron
Hired Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 12:53 PM |
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I would say that to some degree it is a trade-off in HoMM 6 as well, because you simply don't have enough wood and ore to build whatever you want. I've only played the campaigns so far, but if I went for the capitol, I could afford to build few creature producing buildings, whereas without going for the capitol you can afford to build more in the first week. However, I do think going for the capitol is a good idea, because you'll be using money to trade for the other three resources, which have now become more precious commodities.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 02:50 PM |
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If it were up to me there would be a faction that had really strong troops, but had a lot of prerequisites for their capital and champion recruitment buildings, and another faction with weaker troops, but fewer prerequisites for their capital and other best buildings. This would give variation to the playing style of factions and make the game fun in my opinion.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 03:49 PM |
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and make the game even more imbalanced...
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted November 01, 2011 03:54 PM |
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Kingdom management is completely gone in H6. This is just one of many examples.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 04:24 PM |
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Let me see. Before you was unable to build capitol right away (and were forced to build useless building to meet the requirements for capitol). Now you have the choice if you want to build capitol right of the bat or no. For you having more options means management is gone.OK.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 01, 2011 04:33 PM |
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Why wouldn't you buy the capitol right of the bat?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 04:35 PM |
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On some rushing maps you might not want to waste 10g 10 wood and 10 ore because game ends week 2.
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 06:48 PM |
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Quote:
On some rushing maps you might not want to waste 10g 10 wood and 10 ore because game ends week 2.
Are we speaking about the same game here? Heroes? If yes, then we have a very different way of playing.
I like to pretend that I am some king/baron/overseer/whatever who control his fledging kingdom, nurture it and grow it into a world wide empire. I role-play with Heroes. The game took months to finish, simply because I savor every turns of it. I hate rushing, because rushing makes me in rush, destroying the flavor of managing a kingdom. If I want to rush, I will play as Zergs in Starcraft*, not as Knight in Heroes.
Ubihole's decisions in Heroes VI effectively cut what I like in previous Heroes V. Now, I have to rush. I have to spend my time entirely in battle field, since Ubihole left almost nothing outside the batte field.
If that condition suit your play type, go ahead. But it does not suit mine since it forces me to ditch my way of playing.
*as of note, I don't play Starcraft because I hate zerg-rush!
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted November 01, 2011 07:12 PM |
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Edited by Zeki at 19:12, 01 Nov 2011.
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I feel totaly the same, though I like starcraft. But when I play heroes I don't want to play a turnbased starcraft Version.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 07:13 PM |
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Same kind of maps were in h5 so i don't know what are you upset about. Nobody forces you to play them.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 01, 2011 07:55 PM |
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No, I have no problem with those people who want to play ultra-rush playing ultra-rush. But since I'm quite confident in stating that that is a very little minority of all the games played, it still seems a bit flat to say that it's not a problem that rushing to Capitol is very easy because it will not be an advantage in some games - of course it's true, but if it's an advantage in 95% or more of the games, it seems like poor game design imo.
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What will happen now?
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 01, 2011 08:28 PM |
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It's still too early for me to have strong opinions about this sort of stuff, as I'm still mastering the game, but if it is a problem, just upping the wood/ore cost would probably be sufficient. As of now it does seem pretty cheap and I end up getting the capitol earlier than previous games in the series.
Even so, rushing for the capitol in 95% of cases seems like it might be an overstatement. It all depends how quickly you can conquer a 2nd town, which varies depending on the map. Even if you can't immediately afford all of your units, if you can get as many creature dwelling up as possible you can build up your reserves over a week or two and then buy them later when you're pulling in more money from your capitol/gold mines/adventuring. As with all Heroes games, it's about constantly pushing yourself to the limit. Tons of excess money floating around isn't necessarily a good thing. It means you're not moving fast enough.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 01, 2011 08:38 PM |
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Just to clarify, I was not saying that capitol rushing was favorable in 95 % of the games, I don't really have grounds to evaluate that. My point was that week-2-rush-games are the only ones where capital rushing is not favorable, then that would still leave the remaining vast majority of the games to have it favorable.
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What will happen now?
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 09:13 PM |
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Quote:
Same kind of maps were in h5 so i don't know what are you upset about. Nobody forces you to play them.
Yeah, nobody force me to play rush maps in previous Heroes versions. I play solely medium/large/xl. The more focus on role play and management, the better map it is for me. Finding and playing LotA is like a heaven 
Sadly, Heroes VI design (which cut all the management, as I already said many times), forces me to adopt rush gameplay even when playing campaigns, the most rpg maps in the game! That is what I am complaining about. Decisions which alienate me as Heroes' player.
Oh yeah, +1 on turn-based Starcraft 
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 09:31 PM |
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Im playing this big map 8v8 and im in very small starting area, im building creature dwelling first to be able to defeat guardians fast. Or should i rush capitol? (true story im playing this game right now lulz)
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Pitlord
Known Hero
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posted November 01, 2011 09:50 PM |
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Edited by Pitlord at 21:55, 01 Nov 2011.
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guys on normal maps like broken alliance u cant rush to capitol,otherwise u will probably lose. someone on drachenwald (german h6 community) has managed to built 3 core building and 2 elite buildings in w1. after that he has built the 5000g and 10.000 gold mainhall buiding.remember if u are starting to build early mass units instead of rushing to capitol u have a bigger army in early/middle game and probably late game too.
the buildorder depends on the map finally, if in your starting area are mass creeps which are guarding gold,treasures etc. you can easily focus on units in w1
edit: he played with normal settings
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