|
| Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.2 - Discussion thread ~ |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 30 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted January 19, 2012 04:42 PM |
|
|
I didn't say that everything is as it is supposed to be.
I just think that it makes no sense to judge the state of balance on how the campaigns play and whether you may or may not avoid more or less losses against a specific faction.
I mean (I don't say it is so, but just to illustrate), after all a faction could loose troops against EVERY faction (having no way to get back the dead at all), but they could be so powerful that it would still be enough to beat everyone else head-to-head.
So that doesn't say much.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 04:49 PM |
|
|
I find this scenario a bit hard to imagine - you have a super-powerful faction which loses creatures constantly and it beats some other faction which is supposedly weaker but preserves its creatures easily. Heh... how?
Anyway, the conventional wisdom states that Inferno is very far from the above description... whatever it's supposed to mean.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 04:54 PM |
|
|
|
Because the creatures are simple better or more plentiful or buildings are cheaper. Since you cannot heal losses at all, you will lose some.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 04:58 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Because the creatures are simple better
Then you won't lose them because they'll be easier to preserve - which is by the way something that will certainly work for Inferno and will keep its play style.
Quote:
more plentiful
Could work but then they also have to be cheaper.
Quote:
buildings are cheaper
Then you'll have a faction built for rushes and that's something which is usually frowned upon.
|
|
SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 05:05 PM |
|
|
@JollyJoker: I do appreciate some of the things you've said...
With ref to necro turtling being a bit too powerful: the things that contribute to this include the absence of some things from H5, namely
1. no champion dragon breath or crystal dragon breath
2. H5 higher damage vs hitpoint ratio & initiative system meant it was better to strike when your turn came rather than wait or defend & not get another action for some time...H6 has 1 action per creature.
3. no-range penalty for many shooters [esp liches & those female driders]
4. less creatures that can reach the other side of the battlefield to strike hard on first action
5. morale & luck probabilities are way reduced [1 stat = 1% ]
6. destructive spells not very powerful
7. the best potential turtler academy had only 2% chance of defence or attack & hero stats growth was very low in attack/defence.
If the enemy has to come to you, then your forces can just "wait" and attack them with all you've got once they come into range plus focus on tears & magic. The normal way to counter this is offence & might - eg. in a might hero vs magic hero battle, it is in the interest of the might hero to end the battle as soon as practicable with biggest offence.
The thing I don't like is:
1. being undead is supposed to have some big disadvantages as well as advantages - this is clearly not the case atm since necro hero stats that normally go into morale has more chance to go into the other stats [did I already say morale & luck stats are way too weak?] plus they are no longer slow like H5 because now everyone gets one action per turn & did someone say necro can even benefit from regeneration spell???
2. inferno reliance on luck is tough due to luck stat 1% probability and gating racial relies on attacks/retaliations - morale does not.
3. spirit form ability is just wrong if it stays active while ghosts etc defend for multiple turns (others have said before)...it's even harder for someone to strike hard on first strike on driders.
4. I somehow see inferno as either:
A. strong on might attack like in H5 but they need defensive skills to make up for weaknesses [I really hate how one can't have both tears & blood equally together - I'd do away with the whole tears/blood thing & make assailant/defender skills more effective without needing the level 5 or level 15 pre-reqs]
B. strong on destructive magic (laughingly called warlock) - but those destructive spells are pretty damn weak.
Overall, I feel they need to re-balance things based on 1 creature per turn (necro is not really slow anymore) & being undead should have more disadvantages & too-strong no-range penalty shooters & better morale & luck stat probabilities & better assailant/defender skills & slightly better destructive spells ...then maybe tweak inferno better after that.
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
|
|
SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 05:14 PM |
|
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 17:14, 19 Jan 2012.
|
The other thing is that I don't think ubisoft really cares, because they are more interested in the online casual single-player RPG, chit-chat things like conflux/soulforge/achievements/whatever they think of next...there are a lot more ubi official presence there than in other facets of the game.
but I wonder how many of you agree with me?
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
|
|
jhb
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 05:30 PM |
|
|
@SKPRIMUS
I agree with most of your insights SKPRIMUS.
specially this one:
"Overall, I feel they need to re-balance things based on 1 creature per turn (necro is not really slow anymore) & being undead should have more disadvantages ... "
Imo, about the destructive spells imo the problem is exactly 1 hero action per turn, a possible solution could be to classify all the skills you can use in the battle.
Let's say, for example, army buffs will consume a full turn, and damage spells will consume half turn.
There are some good destructive spells (lighning bolt), but you don't have the opportunity to use due the fact you can act just 1 time per turn. So hero's actions are more valuable now.
The multi-target damage spells needs an improvement(damage or utility).
|
|
jhb
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 05:41 PM |
|
|
Another thing, I think most of the buffs should be weaker and last longer. Creating more opportunities for different combos (and the use of dmg spells maybe).
Right now, most of the time you'll just repeat the skill 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, until the end of the battle. maybe 1234,234, etc.
The battlefield could be a little bigger too. Or the units a little slower. But idk this could change a lot of things.
|
|
SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 06:09 PM |
|
|
@jhb, the other fun fact is I can't find anywhere which says "warlock" is better at casting destructive spells than other hero classes...other than the mana reduction class ability...weak destructive damage/not much extra damage bonus/cooldowns --> who calls that a warlock?
mass stoneskin is quite good at delaying/prolonging your magic hero led forces against might...but I'd like all my might heroes to have dispel & mass dispel.
I'd definitely remove regen working for undead if that's true. [I don't play them so I don't know]...I wonder if it's a bug.
& H5 gated creatures stayed till end of combat...not when original stack got killed
ofc gating plus destructive can be too powerful combination if improved too much
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
|
|
jhb
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 06:36 PM |
|
|
Quote:
@jhb, the other fun fact is I can't find anywhere which says "warlock" is better at casting destructive spells than other hero classes...other than the mana reduction class ability...weak destructive damage/not much extra damage bonus/cooldowns --> who calls that a warlock?
LOL!! Man that's ironic! warlock just get more skill he won't find the opportunity to use. Want to hear another irony? The most brute hero in the game (stronghold might-blood) got the best damage "spell" in the game: Power of the horde. This thing was showing 40-41k of dmg at the end of the prologue  .
One thing I rly miss from H5 was the fact the hero could act more times per turn. I think that makes the battles more versatile and less repetitive and boring.
with that said, I still have fun with H6, a very good game if u ask me. But can be better
I hope to see townscreens back and more improvements.
|
|
Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 07:20 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Right. I see, this is going nowhere. To make this easier how about this:
Pick a map. Pick a player position. Pick difficulty levels and so on, experience gaining speed. Go creep with any faction you like for the time you find appropriate. If you think you are fine and have a good position that cannot be matched by Inferno, tell me the time I'm supposed to play with Inferno, then we compare development.
You are still utterly blind to the point after months passed. Even if someone accepted this challenge and you annihilated him/her, you'd still be wrong.
1) Your experience =/= game design
2) Your skill =/= faction's power
3) Your preference =/= efficiency
4) Easily powerful faction vs Hardly decent faction =/= balance between core elements of a game
5) Your very specific strategy that makes (or so you say) Inferno work if obsessively followed with no variants =/= a solid, well-rounded philosophy of play with power and depth
And such:
HoMM6's factions =/= balanced factions
Everything else is meaningless.
|
|
jhb
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 07:37 PM |
|
|
@Momo
and if anyone beat him in that challenge, he'll just come here and say another thing.  that's why I give up arguing. 
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 08:44 PM |
|
|
Ah. So no matter what, you played the campaign, you couldn't save the dogs from being clobbered and consequently Inferno must be inferior, because with the other factions nothing got clobbered?
Is that it?
Now what is true? True is, if a really strong opponent concentrates on taking something out, it will be taken out. If that's the case only Necromancy and Resurrection helps.
True is also, if Inferno plays against undead, the only spell helping bringing stuff back is Regeneration. All other faction have at least one option more. Also Regeneration will built things only slowly up.
So the bottom line is that Inferno is somewhat more prone to losses.
You are aware, of course that a level 15 hero's gated stacks will each be made up of about 10% of the ARMY (not stack) strength. You are also aware, of course, that irresistable calling will bring that to 14% and that Seal Of Power will allow you to make up losses with the Gated creatures.
What does all this nonsense mean?
It means that Inferno may be the faction that is most prone to losses, but it's also the only faction that can bring in more troops and resinforcements every turn and apart from the summoning and reinforcement skills. And not just a handful, mind you.
|
|
Mithrandir
Hired Hero
|
|
posted January 19, 2012 08:57 PM |
|
|
|
Do not feed the trolls, even the jolly ones. It has no point.
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted January 20, 2012 07:39 AM |
|
|
Quote:
You are aware, of course that a level 15 hero's gated stacks will each be made up of about 10% of the ARMY (not stack) strength. You are also aware, of course, that irresistable calling will bring that to 14% and that Seal Of Power will allow you to make up losses with the Gated creatures.
Good point, but by the time you're level 15 and full on tears, you will have lost a #&%*load of troops anyway...
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2012 09:22 AM |
|
|
*Sigh*
Not in my map experience, no.
You have to keep in mind, that Campaign Single play is different in that it is supposed to be a CHALLENGE, that is determined. It's staged. It doesn't allow comparison.
MP maps - that is, maps that can be played from 2 and more positions - are set up differently.
I don't think, everything is fine and dandy, but losses would be very low on my list of possible problems with Inferno.
|
|
mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
|
|
posted January 20, 2012 12:09 PM |
|
|
Quote:
*Sigh*
Not in my map experience, no.
You have to keep in mind, that Campaign Single play is different in that it is supposed to be a CHALLENGE, that is determined. It's staged. It doesn't allow comparison.
MP maps - that is, maps that can be played from 2 and more positions - are set up differently.
I don't think, everything is fine and dandy, but losses would be very low on my list of possible problems with Inferno.
Well in my experience on multiplayer maps the losses to Inferno are more than enough to make a long term difference in the outcome of the map.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2012 12:26 PM |
|
|
Give examples. Which map(s)? Difficulty level? Player positions?
I'd like to make sure we have comparable experiences.
|
|
Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2012 02:45 PM |
|
Edited by Momo at 14:46, 20 Jan 2012.
|
Quote:
Do not feed the trolls, even the jolly ones. It has no point.
I don't think he is trolling. He is making many reasonable and well structured points. I disagree with his conclusions but if I'd thought he was just trolling I'd have stopped making my point weeks ago.
Quote:
It means that Inferno may be the faction that is most prone to losses, but it's also the only faction that can bring in more troops and resinforcements every turn and apart from the summoning and reinforcement skills. And not just a handful, mind you.
Look, I get your core point and I agree with it. Inferno must have its personal strategy and style and it can't be a copypaste of Necro. Inferno must sacrifice troops to ultimately win with a price in blood. I DID UNDERSTAND THAT PART.
You know what plays exactly like Inferno is supposed to play, risking it all, sacrificing pieces, cheating things into play, warping the opponent's plan or messing with his forces? You know what does exactly this? The color Black in Magic: The Gathering. Now Black is easily the strongest or second-strongest color in the game, because what it gets in return for all it gives away is usually worth the risk. That is to say that such a strategy CAN work in the long run in a given game.
That is not the case with Inferno because it loses more than it gains. It's really that simple.
First:The use of gating you suggest is available only endgame, when your countless chain of (pointless) losses will already have succeeded in setting you several steps back.
Second: The strategy is supposed to be that: troops being not so resilient + troops good on the offense + gated troops = a faction that exponentially increases offense even if it doesn't increase resilience (note that gated troops can only increase the offensive power of your army but cannot prolong its durability). This is all nice in theory, but in practice gating is not fast, frequent or powerful enough to make it work. EVEN MORE SO with luck's trigger being bugged.
Third: similarly, the other aspect of Inferno's strategy (messing with the opponent's plan) is significally downpowered compared to what it was in HoMM5. I already written a lot about this months ago.
Fourth: the Hounds trend to die still is exaggerated even for such a playstyle, no matter how you look at it. Even if they fixed breeders, gating, blade of hatred etc, Cerberus stats are still wrong, expecially without No-Retaliation.
Oh, and another thing:
Quote:
You have to keep in mind, that Campaign Single play is different in that it is supposed to be a CHALLENGE, that is determined. It's staged. It doesn't allow comparison.
MP maps - that is, maps that can be played from 2 and more positions - are set up differently.
You are absolutely wrong here and you are even more wrong looking at my personal case.
Why are you wrong in general? Because while campaigns are supposed to be challenging, its a challenge that is ALWAYS designed to be won by the player. In every strategy game winning campaigns never matters as much as winning multiplayer games (EVEN VS A.I.!!) because campaigns is considered something between tutorial mode and easy mode.
Why are you expecially wrong when speaking to me? Because I don't play the campaigns for a challenge but just to know the story. Therefore I set the "easy" difficulty to end campaigns ina few hours and then I look for challenges in multiplayer. So I am speaking from my personal experience with Inferno vs (stupid AI + tutorial mode + easy difficulty). It doesn't possibly get any easier than this. Yet still I have only two options: focus my entire creeping phase to keeping cerberi alive/off the battlefield, or face the final opponent without cerberi. I can do either one or not, and don't have any trouble in winning nonetheless, but whatever I do the hounds end up looking pathethic, even against a dumb opponent as this one.
I recognize a design flaw when I see one.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 20, 2012 03:14 PM |
|
|
First of all Luck isn't bugged anymore.
Also, I think you just didn't get the hang of it, because you don't have to lose the dogs at all.
Just think about this: there is nothing wrong with building a defensively oriented hero with Stand Your Ground and Stone Skin and so on, some passive defensive skills - and come the day of decisive battle, you just sacrifice the Dogs in a fast attack, turtling the Lilims and gate 10% army strength in each turn.
A Tear1 + Might hero will gate 14% army strength with each stack which means, it's possible to double the inital strength within the first 7 turns.
Don't you think that might just a lttle bit massive, considering how great damage dealer the Lilims are ranged, if Inferno has the same instruments of troop conserving than everyone else?
The dogs are targeted, if possible, since they have such a big damage potential. Your task, when playing Inferno is to MINIMIZE the losses - developing tactics for that is part of playing them.
|
| |
|
|
