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| Thread: Resource Requirements Balancing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 07, 2012 06:23 PM |
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Resource Requirements Balancing
Following the resource discussion here, I would like you to state your ideas on how well or not the resource system was implemented. I am not so much interested in a comparison between 1 with 4 rare resources - since such a discussion is not only irrelevant but also beaten to the death already- but rather how well you think the requirements are adjusted for each town. How do you like the prices for core/elite/champion dwellings? Do you feel that the requirements for the unique buildings are fair? Do you like that money structures also cost wood/ore this time? Or the +1/+2/+3 fortifications growth for all units?
I do not have the time to elaborate on my thoughts right now but go ahead, I'm interested in hearing a piece of your mind.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 07, 2012 06:56 PM |
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I like that it isn't MANDATORY to get the forts ASAP in order to get a decent creatue growth.
I am not sure if I like that the town portals are so expensive when they are such important structures that makes the game a lot nicer to play.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted January 07, 2012 07:16 PM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 19:32, 07 Jan 2012.
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well, I think the ammount of resources for buildings and creatures is ok implemented. In the beggining I was bit of scared about building champs, but after bit of playing I realized its just fine. On certain ubi-maps (cant remember now which are those), sometimes, theres lack of cristal mines...but thats about maps creation not about resources cost.
Also the differences between games settings: rich or medium resources(?!-if I recall it well) its huge, which I dont really like it.
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 07, 2012 08:10 PM |
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Personally I am rather fine with the dwelling prices though the champions are still rather steep. I like how the game makes you seek more and more resources if you want to keep building and by giving wood/ore requirements for the money structures(I love how marketplace now gives a daily income too) it introduces a dilemma: Will you go for city hall/capitol or will you build one more dwelling for this week? Upgrades boosting growth can even make you wonder if it would be a better idea to build another dwelling or upgrade the unit your strategy requires most. It is in your best interest to build and upgrade as soon as you are able than just leave it for later, it will count in the long run. But castle price.. Ugh. I can kind of understand how castle is not a priority and it no doubt is expensive so as to prevent boosting champion growth early but I still find it fairly ridiculous.
As for unique dwellings and advanced marketplace costing crystal I am not so sure. The priority of the game is and was to get as many dwellings, as fast as possible. And since all require crystal the situation gets problematic since they will always or almost always come second. It takes some of your freedom in choosing your own build the way I see it. And that is why I would love to see another rare resource, to keep it for special buildings and possibly champions - reducing crystal requirements and adding some of the other resource in the latter's case. Or maybe even other, more special uses on the adventure map but this is out of this discussion's scope.
Having played some more I think that convertion prices are rather fine as they are. It does cost to convert an advanced town so you can't do that for every town you capture.
And as far as town diversity goes, while I dislike the general layout being so similar for all I also enjoy those little tweaks for each faction. Like inferno lacking an advanced marketplace but having a marketplace with chaotic rates. Or necro having a structure that resurrects fallen heroes for free with a stat boost. How certain upgrades are more crystal demanding but haven's sentinels only require wood and ore to upgrade. I like those little touches and I hope to see further differentiation in the future.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 08, 2012 12:32 AM |
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Quote:
As for unique dwellings and advanced marketplace costing crystal I am not so sure. The priority of the game is and was to get as many dwellings, as fast as possible. And since all require crystal the situation gets problematic since they will always or almost always come second.
This was also my impression from the beta.
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What will happen now?
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted January 08, 2012 02:06 AM |
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So far my impression is that upgrading your town hall is moderately too easy, and the cost of special buildings is moderately too expensive. Champions dwellings might be a tad too costly.
Champion dwellings wouldn't be so bad except that on top of the ~20 crystal price you have to pay for the dwelling you still need to pay crystals for the creatures themselves, which strongly discourages me from getting them before getting all of my elite creatures, but then again I suppose that's the point. It's generally not a dwelling you'll want to rush too quickly or it can hurt how quickly you can build your town. The special buildings can offer some nice bonuses, but as of yet I rarely feel compelled to fork over 5 crystals on top of the other costs when that could be paying for a core upgrade or most of an elite dwelling, though there was a game where I experimented getting a Hall of Raiders early game and I felt it paid off.
The town portals seem fair. They are costly but the logistical payoff is worth it. You don't want them to come too cheap or the game could easily become obnoxious. The idea is that while it's possible to build up to advanced town portals everywhere, you would never be able to do it without severely screwing yourself over in other ways.
Fortifications also seem fair. Zero crystal cost but the wood/ore cost becomes expensive. You would naturally want to build them once you have more dwellings, so you get more bang for your buck from the creature bonus.
The advanced marketplace is rough too but I'm not sure if it should be cheaper. Depending on what's available those artifact buys can be really awesome. I wouldn't say it's not worth it, but there is a gamble involved in that building.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted January 08, 2012 03:24 AM |
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I think town hall should cost half again to double the gold, otherwise I think that all building costs are reasonably balanced. Perhaps the town gates should cost more, they are pretty good.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 08, 2012 05:16 AM |
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I think the new resource system is one of the things they have succeeded in flawlessly. The prices are reasonable considering their effects.
Though, some special buildings are not equal in quality to other special buildings. For example, The Wasting Grounds of Necropolis is clearly a much better special building than Stronghold's Warpath Lodge, considering there also are external Warpath Lodges in the game. But making one of the same kind of building cheaper than the other would be unreasonable. The thing needed is making the less affective ones more affective.
Considering town portal, it has to be expensive cause town portal is much affective in this game compared to the others. It was a Level 4 Earth Spell in H3 which not every town had in its Mage Guild. In H5 it was a spell every town had but it required your hero to be Level 20. Now all these high requirements are replaced with some crystals in this game. I don't think that's unfair; it is necessary.
Building Champion buildings were always very expensive. What makes it seem more expensive in this game is that you used to exchange your unnecessary resources with the one you need to build your champion building in older games. Now they have removed these unnecessary resources and their goal for resource reduction, which is making the resources more crucial, is achieved.
So yes, I think the resource system turned out to be all right.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 08, 2012 09:13 AM |
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I agree advanced Town Gate costing crystal is fine, it is a pretty powerful game defining structure.
About the dwellings costs, I do seem to recall from the beta that many of the elites had higher or equal Crystal cost for the basic building as the upgrade. I think that's generally a bad idea, I think Basic building should cost more Wood/Ore but advanced building more Crystal/Gold. This would make it easier to build several/all Elite dwellings around the same time, which means more Elites come into play, whereas upgrading them will have to wait or should be costly if you choose to do it early.
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What will happen now?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 08, 2012 10:44 AM |
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The Champion dwellings need the most attention, particularly the upgraded ones. The Champion needs its dwelling upgraded to get its maximum population which makes the early construction of a Champion building - if possible at all - a bad investment in quite many cases. Getting upgraded Champions quickly is borderline impossible and economically not very sound. You are usually much better off with a good number of upgraded and unupgraded Cores + 1 or 2 Elites.
The fortification costs come next. Given that we're more or less back to the Heroes IV situation with the castle needed almost exclusively for defensive purposes and not for creature generation, its cost is way too high. The basic walls are fine, the 2nd level is slightly expensive and the 3rd one is a daylight robbery, i.e. it needs to be made much cheaper - wood, stone and gold.
The cost distribution between the different creature dwellings from the same tier doesn't always seem right considering the effectiveness of the produced creatures. For example - Inferno has the easiest access to the Tormentors among its Elites while they are at least twice more effective than the Breeders but the dwelling of the latter costs twice as many resources as the Tormentors'.
I'm fine with most of the other prices.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2012 11:00 AM |
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I'm not so sure whether this is valid.
I think, a halfway decent hero fighting neutrals paints a wrong picture about Elites - it doesn't show the weakness of the Elites but the strength of the hero.
I see the other HoMM games, and I don't think there was much room for discussing build order.
This is very different now. It's definitely not the best approach to always build what you can, not even in week 1. While you get something for every build and especially for gthe Core upgrades, you also lose something, and while the Cores seem very strong, this is just an illusion because it's the hero that makes them so in comparison with heroless neutrals.
In earlier HoMM games you didn't really make use of a big part of your builds. You had your solid creeping force, sufficient to beat everything halfway normal, while you would build level after level of creatures without hiring them, being satisfied most of the time only, when you had upgraded them. So all small and medium creatures you wouldn't need for creeping would see battle only when raw strength was of the essence. Also lots of unupgraded creatures were of small use only. Take for example most basic Tower, Becro or Haven creatures.
All that has changed. Now, I'm not going to say that this is necessarily better - I just say, it's SOMETHING ELSE for a change. You can really experiment with army set-ups: basic creatures are already pretty powerful, and since you are forced to build your town rather slowly, there is ample opportunity to consider which upgrades you REALLY need (make you a lot stronger), which new (Elite) builds will help you most, whether to split stacks (you have ample room in your army for a long time) and if so, which ones and how, and you can again mull over upgrading an existing Elite or building a new one.
It SHOULDN'T be a matter of course that a new build is better than an upgrade.
That doesn't mean the resource system is perfect. But if there is one thing it isn't then it's dumb.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 08, 2012 11:07 AM |
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(...) and while the Cores seem very strong, this is just an illusion because it's the hero that makes them so in comparison with heroless neutrals.
I'm not sure I think this argument holds any point. While it may well be true, the way the game works you will always have a Hero in your army, and the bottom line is that you can beat pretty much everything except perhaps Champions with an army of Cores only. So yeah, the Core strength may be courtesy of the Hero, but if you think the capability of the Cores are too high (which is an individual assesment), that doesn't change the fact that Cores are too strong, no matter what the exact reason is (plain core stats or Hero influence).
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What will happen now?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 08, 2012 04:17 PM |
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As many have already noted, the change in the resource system os one of the inovations that i think have been well implemented and are fuctional. The high price of the portals is equal to its use and the fact that more ore and wood is needed throughout the development of the town is also a + in my eyes.
But as I have noted in a nother topic, I think there is to much gold in the game.
As Elvin noted, the market place gives now a 500 gold bonus. And also forts have this bonus. The fact that artifacts that provide gold are also more common is another aspect.
In short, gold is to easy to get, and its income is to high. Forts and marketplaces provide much more gold then the original gold mines, miles and other locations could ever manage.
I think it would not be a bad move if the Gold income from the Capitol would be reduced to 3000 and from the city hall to 1500.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted January 08, 2012 09:04 PM |
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I think the gold flow is okay. It just means you can trade it. I think the reason you feel it's more plentiful is because it's easier (too easy) to upgrade your town hall than in previous games, so you end up getting a high income earlier in the game. But you now have the expense of converting buildings and towns, and the abundance of creature dwellings balances out the extra money you make through forts. Adventure map creature dwellings generally weren't as common in previous games.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 08, 2012 10:24 PM |
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The Resource System of Heroes VI is a disaster.
Every faction uses every resource in exactly the same way, and every resource is completely necessary for every faction, and every build requires every resource. It's horrible. There is no possibility to be shunted into an alternate development path by different resources. There is no reason to trade anything with other players. And no resource can ever be higher priority to any player than it is to any other.
Not only is there basically no strategy to the resources at all, but the fact that they are so few in number and so identical and complete in their utility means that the game can't even be expanded. You can't make alternate development paths, because there aren't any alternate resources for you to be incentivized into an alternate development path with.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 08, 2012 10:31 PM |
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Every faction uses every resource in exactly the same way, and every resource is completely necessary for every faction, and every build requires every resource.
I guess that was sort of the point by making the change. I don't particularly like it either, but they do sort of achieve what they aimed for.
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What will happen now?
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted January 09, 2012 01:31 AM |
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I really like the new resource system, but would be open to adding in 1 more type of resource that is possibly more rare, etc.
The cost of things seem pretty fair, but the Champion building could be reduced slightly.
My main complaint is that the creature quantities increase too dramatically. On larger maps I've been able to afford only 1/2 of the creatures.
My other suggestion is that you can't build the Capitol without at least building some defenses, etc.
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no1joe
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2012 02:18 AM |
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im guessing custom games and/or later campaign missions are going to be different because ive only played the first map of each factions campaign and ive found theres nowhere near enough creatures and although your limited at the start what you can build before long theres endless amount of resources and nothing to spend them on exept artifacts. I think speed of play/difficulty/limited creature types might be it though.
Might be a stupid question does the whole game have stupid small areas or are there nuetral areas and stuff to do inbetween enemies regions..cuz playing against a computer who seems to have a higher creature growth than me despite me have 10 cities vs 1 is so rediculous and such small distances between cities that if i move off to explore while i try to build up numbers to tackle the behemoth he just comes in and takes a city i just left its lame. Is custom game the same?
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted January 10, 2012 02:35 AM |
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im guessing custom games and/or later campaign missions are going to be different because ive only played the first map of each factions campaign and ive found theres nowhere near enough creatures and although your limited at the start what you can build before long theres endless amount of resources and nothing to spend them on exept artifacts. I think speed of play/difficulty/limited creature types might be it though.
Might be a stupid question does the whole game have stupid small areas or are there nuetral areas and stuff to do inbetween enemies regions..cuz playing against a computer who seems to have a higher creature growth than me despite me have 10 cities vs 1 is so rediculous and such small distances between cities that if i move off to explore while i try to build up numbers to tackle the behemoth he just comes in and takes a city i just left its lame. Is custom game the same?
The first map of each campaign severely limits what creatures you can get. They basically are introducing each creature to you, and often times you don't get to use all of the creatures until map 3 or 4 of each campaign.
That said, you might want to just play a regular non-campaign map against the AI because it sounds like it will be much more fair and fun for you!
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 13, 2012 07:44 PM |
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Every faction uses every resource in exactly the same way, and every resource is completely necessary for every faction, and every build requires every resource.
And how this is bad exactly lol?
When you talk about cores destroying champions too easily you are right, but the fix for it is simpler than you might think. Increase number of champion creatures. Its not surprising that killing few champions with kick ass hero and bunch of cores with so many ressurrection possibilities is easy.
I think most of the costs in game are fine. I agree with castle being way too expensive. I think that money building prices are ok. If you play on hard its really hard to get that gold anyway. Later on you got a lot gold , that is true but there is so much to spend on that i never felt I have too much of it. When I did and i bought some extra hero, it turned out that next week I was short on it again.
I think unique buildings may be too costly, not sure though, I havent used them too really. I felt that the money is better spent elswhere and games werent long enough for me to have enough money for them. Which I guess is a good sign when you think about whole economy in general.
In other words, I like the economy as it is. Bigger maps would make things more interesting though. Also, picking up 1 resource from each pile on hard is rather silly.
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