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| Thread: The Great Purification of WoG... Or something. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Kreegan
Known Hero
Winged Anquietas
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posted January 28, 2012 11:39 PM |
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Wait, wait, wait... Am good understand you all? You don't wanna do it 'Cause you prefer having 1-2 modes at the same time insted of e.g. 7-10 that will work together as 1? Come on, guys! Even I had once such an idea and it was called "Call of War". For me WoG have some options that are really awful: some graphics (e.g. Emissaries), units that are just recolored (e.g. 8th level), scripts that I believe nobody uses ('monster mutterings' or what it called is)... We can unite all great mods (such as New Upgrades, Grove, Forge) into one and much more, especially when we have CoreWoG files now. We could even change the look of WoG a bit (or use New Interface mod) and raise it's functions. We have now all we need and someone who finally put all hopes for uniting mods into one voice 
Sooo.. it's not big deal to gather up all ideas of improvement of WoG for us. Can we just not say what we don't use in it and which mods are so good that must be in United WoG? Even if we do nothing about it we should at least speak about what could be changed in it...
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nick: Irhak
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 28, 2012 11:51 PM |
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Yes, i have to turn down all 100 of them. A slight inconvenience but inconvenience nonetheless.
People...are you serious?
Open WoG options, uncheck those you hate 100%. Save options. Next time you play, load your custom settings, all you unchecked will remain unchecked. Too much effort really?
Yes. When people like something they usually care about improvements. It would be an improvement in my opinion.
The point of a un-necesary effort is not it's scope, but its mere existence.
Once people start being satisfied with small faults it is usually a road to doom.
You can argue that it wouldn't be an improvement, and that would be a fair stance. Quoted type of arguement however, isn't.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 28, 2012 11:54 PM |
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Look, people: it is not so simple as that. I know that many of you almost never played custom maps and rioting over randoms wogified (which is very bad choice), but please consider that if you remove erm files, then ert will have no use as well. And most precious custom maps made for wog USE them. I speak about Fnord/Corribus maps as well, which are right now the WoG backbone, in terms of imagination and achievement.
Then a lot of talented mapmakers who spent on a single map more time than you could even imagine will find that your "professional" wog is simply negating suddenly all their sweat spent on. From what I played by the past, there are at least one hundred or so of those custom maps, which either use a dat file, or direct references to DATA/s. If no Data/s anymore, those maps, which are the best proof of what WoG IS, not some graphics or icons, but materialized ideas, will become junk.
I see everyone is according to say level 8 and emissaries are ugly. Ok, what you propose then? Have something to replace? Want to delete them then wait some improbable graphic genius to work on? And what if it never comes? Those who want replacement, show models. I agree on that, but the only beautiful models I came through were from other games.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Trith
Adventuring Hero
Not a Hero... Just a... Nobody
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posted January 29, 2012 12:07 AM |
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Edited by Trith at 00:23, 29 Jan 2012.
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First of all...
@Kreegan
The you have just achieved new level of misunderstanding, congratulations.
In short...
Purification of WoG - from unnecessary elements, replaced with something higher quality...
NOT
Unification of various mods for WoG. It would be a nightmare, cheese and some rainbow vomit mixed together. An exact opposite of what i want to achieve. 
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Now other misunderstandings....
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Hate new creatures? Download Era, make a custom lod and fill it with all substitutes found that you like.
And that... Is the problem.
Quotate proves that WoG is still for modders, not for common players.
Moders have to know plenty of various tools to operate on *.lod, *.def and other files, not to mention knowledge about ERM.
But common user (i mean player) isn't interested in all those details. Common player just wants some clear gameplay options to chose from and good looking graphics.
You all here are modders and you look at WoG from modder perspective. Try to look at this problem from perspective of someone who hasn't any knowledge about modding WoG.
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Open WoG options, uncheck those you hate 100%. Save options. Next time you play, load your custom settings, all you unchecked will remain unchecked. Too much effort really?
Well... Not to much effort, to be honest, but...
Yeah, I know.
There is no real possibility to make everyone happy.
We can have fully customizable mess, which needs certain knowledge to do anything with it. Not to mention that some of features aren't used by anybody? So why cannot they be deleted when they are just unused rubbish?
We can achieve something in strict boundaries. Yes, it cuts some of possibilities, cuts some fatures that 0,1% users would like to use, but this one would require less specialitic knowledge. There are mods for this 0,1% that wants something else.
Players like simple solutions. Of course, player can try to customize WoG by randomly choosing from dozens of weird options and changing some eye-burning graphics manually... Maybe replacing creature *.def on battlefield isn't so difficult today... Yet as far I know replacing creature portraits can be at least inconvenient.
So it would be way better and simplier for player to have already good looking graphics in game and some options to chose from. When player wants something fancy, then downloads a mod instead experimenting with some strange example scripts and getting a headache trying to understand basics of modding.
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but please consider that if you remove erm files, then ert will have no use as well. And most precious custom maps made for wog USE them.
Wait... You think that I'm going to remove whole ERM (Or most of existing scripts)?
Well... It depends. Bigger part of scripts in WoGifications may even survive, but WoG needs balancing and improving if it is meant to be playable. Some scripts aren't playable, some of them are imbalanced, some are only examples of ERM. It should be discussed what to do with them. Which should be deleted, which improved, maybe even some added. But concept and effect must remain clean and clear.
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Forgive me my horrible English...
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Kreegan
Known Hero
Winged Anquietas
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posted January 29, 2012 12:31 AM |
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Edited by Kreegan at 00:36, 29 Jan 2012.
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Then a lot of talented mapmakers who spent on a single map more time than you could even imagine will find that your "professional" wog is simply negating suddenly all their sweat spent on.
Who said that all scripts goes to bin? Or most of them? If they're in use why not leave them? I want at least to talk about all possible changes but not to have argue with you. And for map-modes like that Atlantis map it's meaningless 'Cause this mods changes so much that rest of game is a little bit (all right... really much!) not playable (don't even try saying about backups - many don't do that and then have to reinstall the game; I started with backuping when I was working on AR, not earlier). I presented only ONE that I believe is just some kind of easter egg and is meaningless. Rest could be leave alone. And for maps... in basic WoG I found only Cave of Garfex as WoG map. We could add some more maps to it.
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I see everyone is according to say level 8 and emissaries are ugly. Ok, what you propose then? Have something to replace? Want to delete them then wait some improbable graphic genius to work on? And what if it never comes? Those who want replacement, show models. I agree on that, but the only beautiful models I came through were from other games.
Yeah... an idea of replacement them with artifacts And more seriously - if there are no other way then use rips. Most of mods uses them after all.
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You all here are modders and you look at WoG from modder perspective. Try to look at this problem from perspective of someone who hasn't any knowledge about modding WoG.
Signed under that ^^ I'm more mere player than modder (none of finished modes and those what is started is even not fully my ideas).
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Hate new creatures? Download Era, make a custom lod and fill it with all substitutes found that you like.
Which Era? Those that many still don't know how to use it and they have many difficulties? Yeah, really good idea.
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The you have just achieved new level of misunderstanding, congratulations.
Thanks, I'm trying my best 
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So it would be way better and simplier for player to have already good looking graphics in game and some options to chose from. When player wants something fancy, then downloads a mod instead experimenting with some strange example scripts and getting a headache trying to understand basics of modding.
Look out or someone will come up with an idea of manual for WoG that almost nobody will read
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nick: Irhak
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Trith
Adventuring Hero
Not a Hero... Just a... Nobody
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posted January 29, 2012 12:50 AM |
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Edited by Trith at 00:52, 29 Jan 2012.
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Then a lot of talented mapmakers who spent on a single map more time than you could even imagine will find that your "professional" wog is simply negating suddenly all their sweat spent on.
It's a double-edged sword. WoG isn't really good, when it comes to compatibility. Most WoG features cannot be used along features of more complex maps, and vice versa. It isn't easy to judge who is victim here.
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I see everyone is according to say level 8 and emissaries are ugly. Ok, what you propose then? Have something to replace? Want to delete them then wait some improbable graphic genius to work on? And what if it never comes? Those who want replacement, show models. I agree on that, but the only beautiful models I came through were from other games.
Yeah... an idea of replacement them with artifacts And more seriously - if there are no other way then use rips. Most of mods uses them after all.
I'd rather see some well made artifacts instead of rips from other games, which looks terrible on one battlefield with normal H3 units.
And again - it is to discuss what to with those creatures. Perhaps changing their purposes a bit may help... Or not.
Well it is about the graphics... Maybe I'm not Alex-ander, but I hope that I'm able to do a thing or two... But my problem always is, that I'd do graphics only for already started projects... And here we have only loose discussion.
I hoped that this thread would clarify some ideas, which I could work on... But these arguments seems to be endless.
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Forgive me my horrible English...
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Aleee
Known Hero
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posted January 29, 2012 09:30 AM |
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Quotate proves that WoG is still for modders, not for common players.
Moders have to know plenty of various tools to operate on *.lod, *.def and other files, not to mention knowledge about ERM.
But common user (i mean player) isn't interested in all those details. Common player just wants some clear gameplay options to chose from and good looking graphics.
The only reason I'm talking with you like with a modmaker is that you are a potential modmaker. You have an idea of your "director's cut" of WoG, so I simply suggested how it can be realized without much efforts. My point is that such solutions like custom lods will allow player to bring things back whenever he or she wants without any backups. This condition is extremely important to me, and I would only install this mod on this condition.
It's not that simple with the scripts. Deleting anything does not seem to be a good decision for me. For instance, you can create an additional panel in WoG options called ~"Doubtful options", thus making a hint that you do not recommend using it. Though, it's evident that each player has a list of "doubtful" scripts of his own.
Feel free to think like a modmaker. It means that you're free to develop a version of your dream. It's only you shouldn't hope for unanimous support here. It's just you have reasonable ideas and we have (we believe) reasonable doubts.
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Alustor
Famous Hero
ooo da :)
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posted January 29, 2012 09:34 AM |
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custom lods isn't an option that comes with the RELEASED era2?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 29, 2012 11:39 AM |
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2012 12:14 PM |
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From 1.9. 1.81- support only h3custom.lod and h3wog.lod.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 29, 2012 12:23 PM |
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2012 02:03 PM |
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Can't we just say WoG shouldn't be only for modders and for mods, but also for players which wants to have GOOD add-on with GOOD graphics and GOOD scripts?
Because that's the point. I would be in heaven if there would be some kind of ERA platform without all this WoGish crap. It's not like I hate every WoG's element or something, but seriously - if WoG Team included some creatures that were only to show what can modders do with them, then why shouldn't we make this better and PLAYABLE?
As Trith said - how many people use pure WoG without any mod? Almost none. And WoG is still an add-on, not only a platform for mods, right? So... if it's an add-on, its quality should be better and that's what Trith wants. If it's only a platform - everything should be deleted and replaced with something like ERA only for SoD, but without WoG.
Because now WoG is only an useful garbage.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 29, 2012 02:14 PM |
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Kreegan
Known Hero
Winged Anquietas
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posted January 29, 2012 02:30 PM |
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Please, do what you can to make it better
Wierd... from wrong assumption of removing the ERM to 'do whatever you like'? I like it ^^
But first of all - what is suggested to improve?
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nick: Irhak
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 29, 2012 02:31 PM |
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Trith
Adventuring Hero
Not a Hero... Just a... Nobody
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posted January 29, 2012 03:33 PM |
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Please, do what you can to make it better
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But first of all - what is suggested to improve?
That's the reason why I started this discussion.
It's obvious that certain elements of WoG needs improvement.
The question is, which elements need improvement and in which way should they be improved.
Purpose of this thread was to ask reasonable modders (I mean You ) about your ideas to improve WoG, to spot elements that are unplayable/unnecessary/just bad looking and discuss what to do with them to acieve a consensus and clarified concept that will satisfy majority of modders and players.
Of course, I can work on such project on my own, without asking you about anything... But I don't want to make "my mod for me" that only I would enjoy, but something more universal, that's why I try to get from you any informations what you don't like in WoG and how would you like to change it.
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Forgive me my horrible English...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 29, 2012 03:52 PM |
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My personal need is improving the original Heroes, not WoG. WoG is allowing me to do that, can't improve the tool, I don't have the skills for that neither.
What I miss in original heroes is more diversity between magic and might, also the editor is very limited, for example you can't set an Hero with same creature in all slots and fight it that way, possible quests inside quests (bored of "bring me that axe"), more puzzles, more dialogs, stories more complex. And this is what I am trying to do through my maps. I have no idea about what to improve in WoG, this is bosses domain, as Bersy, Grayface & company. I like everything in and found a purpose for every script, if used reasonably. I would also love to see unique models for 8th level, but talk and design are two different things.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Alustor
Famous Hero
ooo da :)
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posted January 29, 2012 04:18 PM |
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bug free,more scripts plus the exsiting ones,unique lvl 8,more artifacts,more combo artifacts,more monsters,more races,ballance between might and magic,more map objects and that s my dream version of wog
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted January 29, 2012 04:22 PM |
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At the beginning I was thinking Salamandre is making fun of you, but now I believe he's just that strange.
Some nice features of WoG are stack experience, Commanders, new creatures/artifacts/buidlings and Mithril.
All scripts I need are growing banks and castle turrets bonus, rebelanced artifacts and secondary skills. Extended upgrades are fun at random maps. Spell/artifact banning is important on custom maps.
Still, some of them could be optional, others just balanced and expanded (Commanders, Stack Artifacts). But that's pretty much what I try to do in VCMI, no need to duplicate it in WoG (which just died and was took over by ERA).
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2012 06:00 PM |
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I liked playing wogified maps, for a couple of months. There were so many interesting new features, it was like getting a box of Godiva chocolates. But later it began to feel like too much candy. The graphics have never bothered me - I guess I don't have an artistic eye.
Anyway, what do I want changed in WoG? Speaking (as well as I can) from the point of view of a player who just wants to play a standard Heroes map with some WoG features:
1) There should be no bugs in the scripts, especially none which cause crashes. This is difficult to do, because of all the different conditions under which a script can be used. A script can be working well, then somebody adds another script and the two don't play well together. But once a bug is found, and a good bug report is made with a saved game which reproduces it, then the bug can be fixed. I have fixed several bugs myself, so I have confidence that all bugs can be eliminated, over time. As a goal: there should be no bugs in any reasonable combination of official WoG scripts (which is not the case now). Also, things like the Force-Field/Dispel bug which is native to Heroes 3 internal code should be fixed.
2) All random prizes and other random events should be scripted so that, although random from game to game, they cannot be used to cheat by re-loading a saved game and trying again. That is, the player should get the same result after re-loading. (This is not hard to do in a script.)
3) It would be good if the AI could be smarter. This is probably not feasible outside of projects like VCMI, but it seems to me WoG has made the AI dumber, not smarter. I don't mean just in the "thinking radius", which can be adjusted with ERM, but that the AI cannot use most of the new WoG features to its advantage, the way that a human player can. The AI gets a random benefit from an Emerald Tower, but it will not camp a Hero next to one to build up its chosen creature week after week, for example. (Good map-makers give the AI's a big advantage in forces to make up for their lack of creative play.)
4) There is a trap that map-makers fall into (including myself): the best way to take advantage of new WoG features and compensate for its disadvantages is to use it to create a new RPG-type game. They can be creative and fun for the map-maker to work on, and fun for players who are willing to try them (bearing in mind Sturgeon's Law: 90% of them will be crap, because 90% of everything is crap), but they are not standard Heroes 3 strategy games. So perhaps there needs to be some focus from map-makers on "how can I make a standard Heroes game which is better in some way, rather than another RPG?"
5) Then, a collection of the best WoG-based maps should be packaged along with WoG/Era as a sort of "Heroes 3.5 Gold Edition". (Maybe this has already been done, it seems to me I have heard something about an H3 Gold somewhere.) It would have to include some classic RPG games, such as "Alexander the Great" and "Stargate Atlantis Rising" to suit me, but I might not get a vote.
Fortunately I think someone has already made a good start on this work, and called it "The Phoenix Mod". I haven't played it enough to know if it is the complete answer, but if it isn't at least a good start, then I doubt if such a project is possible at all (based on the amount of effort involved).
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