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| Thread: The Great Purification of WoG... Or something. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Fnord
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 30, 2012 01:23 AM |
bonus applied by Cepheus on 30 Jan 2012. |
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A better WoG than WoG
Just to weigh in here with my 2gp...
First, while I believe WoG is a simply incredible game mod for an incredible game (it's still going strong and spawning new mods based on it, over 10 years after it began), I also agree that WoG 3.58f (and most, if not all, previous versions of official WoG) are somewhat a mess in terms of a mix of scripts of all kinds--some mostly balanced, some fun but very random, some unbalanced, some that don't play well with others, some that simply improve the play experience without actually changing any rules (e.g., "Buy All" button), and so on.
Similarly, most of the early "new" creatures that were created are based on existing creatures, and are graphically somewhat boring.
There are of course many good reasons for the way it turned out, not the least of which is that it was all NEW and experimental when it was started, with few people available who were skilled in doing anything with the game. The level 8 monsters and other recoloured new units were, I believe, simply a first attempt at adding "new" creatures to the game. I think there may have been some promises or agreements that kept them largely unchanged (although eventually some new recolouring jobs were done for some of the level 8s) but primarily the creatures themselves were never replaced due to the need to maintain backward compatibility with existing WoG maps. Not to mention that if the WoG Team ever dared to remove or replace something, fans of that particular feature started complaining loudly. 
The same was the case with a lot of the scripting. At first, nobody knew how to script with ERM and indeed, much of ERM wasn't even developed in the early days. When I created "Cave of Gerfrex" (quite possibly the first map that used ERM), only about 10-20% of ERM even existed and the new (L8 etc.) creatures weren't even available. This was when the WoG Team was just getting going and awhile prior to WoG's first official release, although a standalone early "ERM" had already been released publicly.
Eventually some others were coding in WoG (scripting some campaign maps etc.) but universal map scripts didn't yet exist to my knowledge. This was essentially a new concept for Heroes/WoG--scripted objects that weren't specific to one object at a given location. My first scripts (the first of this type) were the "Fishing Well" and "Tavern Gambling Game" scripts. The idea, both for objects, and other type of universal scripts then took off, and was further enhanced by Donald's script innovation of replacing objects (and monsters, artifacts, etc.) on random maps with other objects.
This of course developed into more universal scripts of all types, the addition of the WoGify Options screen (I think introduced in the 2nd or 3rd WoG released version), and many other developments.
So why the mini history lesson? Mostly because I like reminiscing.  But also to point out that WoG developed incrementally, learning as we went, trying new things, bringing together people with different ideas and evolving skills. Sometimes I think it's a wonder that the releases were even as coherent as they were!
I've always maintained that WoG really is, at its core, a toolbox. You can make (almost) anything you want and you can do it YOUR WAY if you have the time and motivation (and skills if you get into scripting or custom graphics etc.). However, WoG was and is also meant for the more casual gamer too.
I've already said that we didn't like to remove creatures or scripts so as to maintain backward compatibility (as much as possible) but obviously, had we known everything in advance I'm sure a lot would have been done differently from the beginning.
It's been suggested that some scripts are never used, or used only by 1% of players. This may be true, but without doing a fairly extensive poll I think you'd be hard-pressed to really make that call about WHICH scripts and options aren't used. Now that doesn't mean you can't go ahead and create a version with just the scripts you and a smaller group of people believe are best..of course you can. Will it satisfy everyone? Probably not, but as long as WoG 3.58f remains available (and ERA), perhaps it doesn't matter. Players still have a choice.
Personally, if I were to reorganize the WoG Options and scripts available I would probably still include random scripts but put them into a section "Random" or "Luck Based" scripts. Then players who have fun with those or like them now and again or like to include ONE such script could include them and those who prefer a more "pure" game of strategy could avoid them.
For creatures, replacing the recoloured models with more original higher quality versions but keeping the creatures the same sounds good to me (although in a few rare cases, RPG maps may describe the current look of one of these monsters and use it as a story element).
Replacing these creatures with completely original creatures is also fine...IF you don't care about compatibility with all existing WoG maps (and a few scripts). For example, I used the Earth Messenger as a basis for the Metamorph script. If that creature was changed to something else entirely that didn't fit, that script couldn't be logically used.
Perhaps more importantly, quite a few of the scripts dealing with creatures that also cover neutral creatures would need modification if the creatures were changed, or you'd wind up with really bizarre (and likely very unbalanced) results. But again, if just changing the creature models to look better, it wouldn't be an issue.
I think ultimately, any sort of repackaging and updating of this nature depends how much work you want to do, and how much compatibility you want to maintain.
Also, if the Phoenix mod (or any other) is already doing this (and I don't know if it is or not) perhaps it really would be better to consider joining forces with them instead of reinventing the new and improved upgraded wheel.
One of the things I would have loved to have when I was sorting out the WoGify Options screens is sub options--some sort of button to click that would pop up a sub-option screen right on the WoGification Screen to customize how a given script/option functions (or perhaps open up a folder-style group of sub-checkboxes). As this wasn't currently possible we had to use full options or pop-up boxes at the start of game play...but seeing 50 sub-option boxes pop up every time you start a game gets tedious pretty fast.
Another related wish would be for a better way to group related script options that would allow for easier location/select by the player and fit in a lot more of them too. But I digress.
To summarize, I believe the idea of a more stream-lined, better balanced WoG with improved graphics and script selection is great. However, maintaining backward compatibility and pleasing everyone (or most people) is always a potential problem. And how to go about doing this, and indeed, whether or not it would be redundant if another mod is doing something very similar, is another matter. Also, I suspect that (eventually), VCMI will make any and all of these ideas easier to implement....but that probably won't be ready for some time.
Happy WoGGing!
- Fnord
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 30, 2012 10:49 PM |
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Thorfinn
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 30, 2012 11:46 PM |
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Extending on JimV's comments:
Cosmetics aren't big for me, either. I like new battlefields, etc., but the play's the thing.
1. I couldn't care less about writing scripts preventing reloading for different effects. Just don't reload. Done. If someone's going to keep reloading until he gets the artifact he wants, it seems to me he's also going to be reloading until he wins the battles, too. I don't see a reason to take away what he thinks is fun, even though I think it boring.
2. Being able to summon elementals on the campaign map is great, but WAY too overpowered. Summoning smaller quantities, or better yet, some random 1-4 level creature would be better, IMO, because otherwise stacks of several thousand missile elementals result. I have no idea how to code that, though, so just live with it with gentlemen's agreements in Hotseat games.
3. It would be nice to be able to choose which objects are replaced by which. The AI seems to handle Mystical Gardens pretty well, and that helps toughen up the AI some, so I'd prefer to leave those mostly alone, but I love some of the new objects they replace. Again, I have no idea what's involved in that, but just sayin'...
4. I'd love to have a better way of handling random map generation. Templates are a huge step forward, but lack specificity. Towers on snow get massive penalties because they don't have Gardens, Stronghold ends up with scads of potential artifacts through those broken wagons, Fortress is just hosed.
5. It would be nice if AI took advantage of Half-Price Friday...
Just a few thoughts from a casual gamer who plays mostly LAN.
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Fnord
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2012 04:34 AM |
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The big question is: will you make a comeback?
Who me? Not anytime soon I'm afraid. I was just throwing in my two gold pieces on my way through town.
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 01:29 AM |
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Edited by GrayFace at 01:48, 01 Feb 2012.
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Nice to see you, Timothy.
At CoreWoG we were planning to go in this direction, separating imbalanced scripts in a special category in WoG options. I even thought about classifying options using tags in addition to categories (for example, "incompatible with multi-player" tag). The WoG Options screen would be remade and I'm not yet sure how it should function.
I really hope this project would take off and go well. It would become the standard if done right. I'd also suggest making scripts compatible with HD Mod and future 10th/11th/12th town. I think changes have already been made for compatibility with HD Mod. The mod's author baratorch would know for sure. Don't make much changes to script00, because the process of converting buildings during WoGification would be improved in 3.59 and the script would have to be seriously changed when the trigger is in place. Instead of iterating over objects the script would use object initialization trigger.
As for 3.59 state, there has been very little activity in CoreWoG for quite some time. I think I'll get back to WoG pretty soon and get the work on executable going.
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1. I couldn't care less about writing scripts preventing reloading for different effects. Just don't reload. Done. If someone's going to keep reloading until he gets the artifact he wants, it seems to me he's also going to be reloading until he wins the battles, too. I don't see a reason to take away what he thinks is fun, even though I think it boring.
That also isn't the solution with fishing well. I would frequently find the fishing hero killed by monsters or waste moving points of a good hero with army. I'd like save/load and find the same thing that I found before reloading. It would be pretty simple in fact, but with Lua and random seed receiver.
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Alustor
Famous Hero
ooo da :)
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posted February 01, 2012 04:14 AM |
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Glad to hear that there still is work going on wog 3.59,but what are the current objectives of this last version of wog?with era 2 being released with great handling of mods and work going on vcmi that should make everything possible and user friendly i would like to know that wog seeks.Are there only tehnichal objectives or graphical one too(like new creatures,new defs)new town/s and campaings maybe?
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Fnord
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 05:48 AM |
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Good to see you too, GrayFace!
Seems like in order to play WoG these days what's needed is a simple but definitive guide to all the variants--what mod is compatible with what and what and which ones can only be used on their own.
By the way, was a WoG version ever released from CoreWog?
Are any of the CoreWog people also the ones who release ERA?
Did anyone make use of (or plans to make use of) Slava's last beta version of 3.59? Or are all current and future releases based on 3.58f (or something else) instead?
It occurs to me that one of big issues with script compatibility is that almost everything was global between scripts except for local variables within a specific trigger or function.
Beta 3.59 added functions local to each script. If a good-sized pool of variables was also created that were local to each script (if that's possible), and scripts were rewritten to use them, a lot of compatibility headaches would go away. Well, I'm sure a lot would remain but adding new WoGify scripts would certainly be easier.
And starting from scratch and rewriting all scripts in an organized fashion would likely also fix many issues..but that's a huge amount of work. And any rewrite would almost certainly result in the re-scripters making changes along the way to suit themselves (which may or may not be a good thing).
Aside from that, the next biggest issue is multiple scripts doing stuff at a given trigger, especially battle and start-of-turn triggers. The order that things happen can make a huge difference at times.
Re: The reloading issue. I don't like to reload a lot myself but like many players, if I'm playing solo and have played for a long time and then make one bad decision or have bad luck and my main hero (and main army) dies, I'd probably want to reload and make another decision instead, or else throw in the towel and call it quits for that game.
In the case of something random, like the Fishing Well, I can definitely see that getting the same result each load would be a good thing. I guess we never worried much about it when we were writing the various WoG scripts, but for future scripts or rewrites, it does make sense.
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VastAire
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 11:34 AM |
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Then only "options" I use in WOG are some new map objects [market of time etc.] and "buy all" option in castle.
Everything else is disable because it only brings chaos.
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paulemile
Known Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 11:59 AM |
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Everything else is disable because it only brings chaos.
Well, this is your own opinion. And with so many different options, it is easy to understand that anyone can have his own set of enabled features. I personnally can't play a standard SoD game no more.
Where are the quick combat options ? stack experience ? creature banks refilled each month ? commanders ? new heroes specializations ? WoG allowed Homm3 to live almost for ever, let's just admitt it.
I'm not an ERM scripter, but I keep following modmakers' works, and I'm still playing WoG as any other mod, with my own beloved options enabled. I don't see any problem with that.
This was the authors' choice to build it this way, with no pretention whatsoever. Let's just respect that... and wait for VCMI's release to play the perfect modded Homm3 you want
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 01, 2012 03:31 PM |
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Who me? Not anytime soon I'm afraid.
Come on. Like you've got anything better to do. 
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 07:23 PM |
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Glad to hear that there still is work going on wog 3.59,but what are the current objectives of this last version of wog?with era 2 being released with great handling of mods and work going on vcmi that should make everything possible and user friendly i would like to know that wog seeks.Are there only tehnichal objectives or graphical one too(like new creatures,new defs)new town/s and campaings maybe?
The goals haven't changed. New towns teams are working on new towns and campaigns. I only know about situation in the Bastion team, so I may be wrong saying there has been nearly no activity in CoreWoG in a long period of time, the 2 other towns in CoreWoG may have been busy. The goals are the platform, new towns, new campaigns and changes to scripts done so far.
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By the way, was a WoG version ever released from CoreWog?
Only one in-team build in October 2008. It's in Wog Team's group files.
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Are any of the CoreWog people also the ones who release ERA?
Yes, Bersy is in CoreWoG.
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Did anyone make use of (or plans to make use of) Slava's last beta version of 3.59? Or are all current and future releases based on 3.58f (or something else) instead?
Sure, 3.59 is based on Slava's last version.
Lua scripts wouldn't have most of compatibility problems you mention. Variables are local to the script, triggers can be added to the top of 'execution list', not only to the bottom.
I see many mentions of VCMI. Is it really close to release?
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Alustor
Famous Hero
ooo da :)
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posted February 01, 2012 07:32 PM |
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Edited by Alustor at 19:34, 01 Feb 2012.
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well not that close as far as i know.v 0.87 is the latest.in at least 1 year i'd say we will be really close,but i may be wrong
Also,is wog 3.59 going to be based on era2(or future version)or it has a totally different thechnical platform?
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted February 01, 2012 07:46 PM |
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We can combine some features, but will not be compatible definitely.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted February 01, 2012 07:57 PM |
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I see many mentions of VCMI. Is it really close to release?
I can't answer this question before AI is revealed, but 0.9 will be full SoD game. It may take some more time before it's any use for modders, though.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Alustor
Famous Hero
ooo da :)
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posted February 01, 2012 08:14 PM |
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We can combine some features, but will not be compatible definitely.
can you go deeper with that?
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 08:35 AM |
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We could use the same virtualizer library to provide Mods folder functionality. WoG could support snd/pac/vid's as Era does. Maybe some other small things.
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted February 02, 2012 01:07 PM |
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Edited by GrayFace at 13:08, 02 Feb 2012.
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Current Era mods depend on Era anyway, so there won't be a need for virtualizer I think, but support for custom load/vid/snd would surely be included. Maybe there would be a virtualizer for ERM. Features of Era would be rethought and some would included with different syntax, some won't be included (e.g. binary patches).
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Vejita00
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 11, 2012 03:38 AM |
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Well... Today we have dozens of mods for WoG with various features.
I wonder, is there anybody, who plays "pure" WoG?
Perhaps not. At least that's what I see.
Why?
Mabybe because WoG is in fact bunch of imbalanced scripts and some random, outdated graphics?
So...
Maybe it isn't bad idea to "purificate" WoG? To throw away scripts, which are only examples of ERM, not suited for everyday use? Today rendered 3D units are standards of more serious mods, but in official WoG (v. 3.58f) we still have even exact copies of existing units with only colors changed or "frankensteins". Not to mention adventure map objects, well... "borrowed" from other games.
And last thing: WoG doesn't contain any plot/storyline connected with Might&Magic universe. Maybe it isn't as important as other aspects, but still counts.
Well... Why am I talking about this?
Is there anybody willing...
To take part in quite ambitious project of re-creating most of WoG with new quailty to make it, well... Playable?
I know, it looks like some kind of those infamous "I have an idea for a mod...", but it can be done.
But I'll need some help to do anything... So... Anybody?
First post here. I just use vanilla WoG. I turned off some settings but I mostly just picked it up because I read it fixed a bunch of bugs/balance issues with the normal game.
Am I messing up my game by just playing vanilla? Is there a better option for mostly just playing some more balanced Heroes 3?
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majaczek
Supreme Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
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posted April 27, 2012 07:32 PM |
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Edited by majaczek at 19:34, 27 Apr 2012.
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Hi! I couldn't make myself not answer this!
What I love in WoG: Optionality (you can check whenever WoG option you want or uncheck it), Freedom (ERM script interpreter/compiler), WoGification and compability with AB random map feature, an compromise between Conservatists and Revolutionists (beeing a mod to classic game, bringing completely new gameplay).
What I love in ERA: Optionality (choice of mods and plugins to approove), Freedom (crazy engine modifications become much easier with ERA plugins, much less UN:C fiddling), The Compability (ERA bases on TE on purporse to not break existing Plugins despite WoG3.59beta beeing availible, the plugin mechanism give ability of almost any engine changes with retaining almost all compability, the mod mechanism beeing able to separate mods from base game and easy to disable/uninstall), The Compromises (only stable plugins/patches are in official ERA package, while any new/unstable patch/plugin can become unofficial part of ERA), beeing open/community driven (WoG were genial mod but you were to be Slaava or WoG team member to do huge changes, MoP has great ideas but it still is one-team and Werd Language is big incompability, HoTA has great feature of New Town Types but are clearly Anti-Community - You have to be elitary HoTA team member to use features as a modder, The HoTA team fight with the idea of WoG, but of course player doesn't matter about this because they didn't understand what shiny it would be if HoTA team just agree to split they work into two free projects - an ERA plugin with ability to add any New Town Types via data/tables/scripts (and some less guarded features achieved) and ERA mod project which would actually bring shiny mods with actually towns, artifacts and campaigns).
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What I hate in SoD modding without WoG or Equivalents: Having to do a map to proove you can do anything, and separate from maps almost none ways of modding, no ability of modding for random maps until generating one in map editor and fixing.
What I hate in modding WoG without ERA: Incompability and Replacements (there are creature limits and so on, forcing you to already replace existing feature with you shiny new like a town or creature/artifact pack which cannot be good for compability), lack of wogify scripts slots (mostly fixed with 3.59beta), the tediousness of ERM usage (sure in future we will have at least one good, standard - used not only in games, powerful script language to handle all able in ERM and ERA API as future plugin).
What I hate in HoTA - fighting or buying modding community, while trying to be shiny elite for players communbity. Of course the New Town Types feature beeing a well hidden treasure is main point.
What I hate in MoP - it is uncompatible with much of ERA, Werd beeing still strange like assembler and ERM, Werd unaccessible as ERA plugin.
What I hate in Phoenix Mod - lack of modularity (I get all main options or none of them) and lack of compability.
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What I see as future of WoG - basing on ERA while ERA team beeing only experts and leaders while all features open to ERA community without beeing any exclusive member, keeping compability between most mods and modding tools, focus on adding things rather than replacing or eventually focus on improoving existing.
What I see as big step in future for community with small step of man: sort things properly (like clear to use WoG options menu layout), fixing most obvious bugs in scripts, making common library of functions already using UN:C ERM command but not requiring to be an ERA plugins, trying to develop lot of independent new ERA plugins while maintaining to keep compability, giving all work directly to the community without elitarism, fixing small issues from WoG/SoD without breaking almost any of compabilty (like replacing Tier 8 Creatures defs with better ones while keeping their stats and abilities and beeing similair to Tier 7 ones, fixing some easy to fix engine bugs/limits like 99 Primary Skill, not beeing able to choose campaign hero for Random Map, the issue of ERM scripts were slow etc.), Respecting all other Work (Not trying to be different as a purporse but beeing different for the Aim to be better without breaking Compability, and despite freedom of share giving valid credits for all work used)
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Finally: what I would Replace or Disable in Current Wog Without ERA? Sorting of WoG options, and idea of Elemental Messegers (Having another defs/stats/abilities to be basically second upgrade of four elementals, while still keeping their Holy and Elemental status) and nothing more. All other features should be Either Kept As Is or Just Improved. Modders should focus on Adding not Destroying/Removing (While making an Improovement - Doing already Ready things the Better Things is always welcome) and it would be hard without ERA.
I agree then than making a common library mod with scripts/creatures/plugins for frequent reuse is good thing. Not a Rainbow Vomit as somebody suggested but already approoved common base of scripts/creatures/etc. to be compatible, still have WoG Options Feature, and beeing Monolith Set (not to mismatch with Monolith Mod) and inner compatible. This would be a good base for any Official WoG Multiplayer Matches.
All improovement without breaking compability is always Welcome and has no reason to be not a part of common set. So Reworking any WoG DEFs while keeping their functional idea the same is definately good thing for common set.
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Sorry for so much wall of text, but I already much to say on this topic. I hope I were enough ontopic to not disturb the peace, the order and the moderators.
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