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| Thread: New skill tree |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2012 09:35 PM |
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Edited by krs at 00:50, 11 Mar 2012.
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New skill tree
UPDATE: theoretically we can envision the changes we propose to the skill tree like this H6 Skill Summary Proposal.
There are not many changes (snatch, mentoring, echonomist 3, assault, siegemaster 1,2,3, pressed attack, realm 3 now available to magic heroes) (Snatch vanished in the process of moving it to REALM), but it is much easier visualize gradual corrections.
UPDATE: Here a link to Aurelain's H6 Skill Summary.
Hey,
Is someone able to imagine a better skill tree for Heroes 6? I have tried and I must face it I do not have what it takes.
- It should preserve as much as possible from H6 skills (0% chance they will redo all the skills).
- It should be like Heroes 5 but way less complex.
- Skill wheel fashion is a must.
Extra flavors:
- Spells should be removed from the tree. But something like 1,2,3 spell power increase for earth should stay there. Schools are also ok.
- Blood / Tears restrictions for some skills?
At least a rough draft on which we can discuss?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted March 06, 2012 10:26 PM |
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The system should be more complex Then the heroes V one
Skills should Have different skill-point costs to balance them
Sbells should should be expelled from the skill system -> To reduce the randomness of the old spell system a resurche system should appear (Inspiration could be taken from Disciples 2) This is also easier if you want to chose diversity among the factions. The cost for the same spell could be different in two factions, and this would make the particular school harder to access for some factions, but not imposible.
Magic passives like Thunderclap should stay as skills More such skills should be added.
General skills like "Earth magic" can be used to limit spells from coming into the game to early (Ex: Expert earth magic alowes the use of Petrification, but can not be taken befor level 15)
Skills That have 3 levels can be reduced to one, that is increased with the general skill and reputation (Ex: Basic warfare alowes the player to lerne Reinforcements. Advanced warfare alowes to use it on Elites. Etc)
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted March 07, 2012 12:06 AM |
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Oh I was thinking about that the other day. Had a few ideas on this but haven't posted yet, 'cause there are problems I haven't quite solved yet. But maybe posting is the best way to solve them.
For the spells (let's start there), in Krs' poll when he talked about it he gave mage guilds and scrolls as examples of alternatives. I say, do both : the scroll merchant. Kinda like the mage guild, except you have to buy the spells, and the stocks get renewed every X amount of time, probably a week but I'm not sure balance-wise, that would need to be tested. This allows for further customization of the factions too, and keeps most of the random out, as you'll end up with most spells eventually. You can adjust not only the rarity of spells, but also it's cost. It enforces a bit of specialisation. For instance Inferno could have an easier time using fire spells because they're cheaper/common, etc. Three levels of scroll merchant, to kind of keep the current stratification going. I'd also like to throw in there a special building for Sanctuary : the fire shrine. Sanctuary's got the chilled effect all over the place. With a price (as high as it needs to be for balance gurus), they can exploit it with fire damage. It also possibly gives a reason to not convert towns immediately : farming certain extremely rare spells (rare for your faction, not that other one).
There are, however, problems with this. Main problem, first off, is what to do with the "might" spells. Keeping them as abilities seems ridiculous. Putting them as scrolls is also ridiculous. I'd say let's have a training ground for it (another building). It would be less resource based though, and more time based. I was thinking spending some amount of movement for it, but I'm not sure how it would work with the first couple of turns or so (where getting them mines ASAP is so vital. Solvable with good mapmaking that makes mines close though). Note, and that's something I rather liked, that this system of training grounds/scroll merchant gets a little bit of the old might/magic division back into it. Magic is better in longer games, because they have the actual resources to really take advantage of the scroll merchant, while the less resource intensive might heroes might be better at rushing. (except I'm making them pay movement, I'm not sure how having less movement would work with rushing. That's one of the problems I'm still working on).
And then there's 2 problems I interconnect because I solve with the same thing. First off, there are way more might abilities than magic abilities (if you stop counting the spells). Sure, new magic abilities are going to appear (say, fire mastery etc that improves effectiveness with spells from it's school, etc. Might make an ability that makes spells of this or that school aoe too (when applicable), some other small stuff), but that's not exactly enough. And then there's this problem too, where you still have the same amount of ability points to spend, but way less stuff to spend it on. So I'm going to solve that problem then go back to the first one.
The easiest solution to the last problem is to give less ability points. Does that mean we just lower the level cap? Nah, I don't think so. Where is it written that what you get every level must necessarily be ability points? Some levels, you could gain additionnal stats instead. Better yet, though I'm not entirely convinced it would be a good idea, you could let the player choose where he invests those extra stat points. More customization for your hero! It can also create situations where you're going to want to delay the engagement just a little bit of time, enough to get one more level and get the ability point you're searching for (rarer means more precious).
So how does that solve the first problem (lots more might abilites than magic abilities). Well, you can give less ability points to magic heroes and more ability points to might heroes, keeping in mind that magic heroes would then get more stats, thus more powerful spells. That makes the mages more reliant on their spells, while the might heroes with their numerous abilities rely on those plus a few choice spells, be they might or even a bit of magic. It would require a bit of tweaking to make it work, but it can work, I'm sure of it. It could further enforce the good ol' might/magic specialization between early and late game respectively, too. For instance, might heroes could get a lot more ability points early on, get their thing going (since they rely a lot on them), while mages get most (but not all) of their ability points more in the teens, so initially they're getting going in terms of mana pool and magic power with a few magic perks, then they get their magic specialisation going with perks, their few might abilities if they want them, etc (the fact that they do it late will allow them to take into account the spells they got from the merchant). We might have to consider gaining less stats per level up though if some level up give more stats, if only to keep stats manageable. Another thing to keep in mind, is that letting the players place the extra stats where they want might throw this fine balance I just described out the window. That's why I'm doubting that idea of letting the player place it's extra stats.
So yeah those were my ideas. Feel free to discuss/disagree etc.. 
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 07, 2012 12:32 AM |
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Edited by krs at 00:49, 07 Mar 2012.
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Quote:
Skills should Have different skill-point costs to balance them
PERIOD!
For whoever thinks (like I did for some time) that skills are separated enough by hero levels.... On a reach map you reach level 5 in the first week. Once level 5 you will have immediate access to every skill you will ever want in the game. Some more restrictions are needed. Different points / skill is one way.
There are so many problems with the current system...
Right now it's not even a choice between blood and tears for some skills. I go Reinforcements for a blood hero any-day! This should be limited. If you get 1 blood point / tears decrease by 1 and the other way around.
Some skills are plain bad while others are too god to be true so you end up with the same skills every time.
Add to this that every race can have the same skills.
There is no dependency between skills except for level 1-2-3.
Some skills have no right to exist in the first place!
EG: Heroic Charge: Target friendly creature gains 2 Movement and +9/10/12(+stats)% damage for each square crossed before
the attack. So every creature is a paladin for 1 turn.... go figure.
Another idiotic EG: Economist 3: Produces 1 Wood and 1 Ore each day. For the love of God. Let's all pretend you have a secondary hero who is level 15 (I still have to see one...) it will really make your day at that point into the game to have +1 ore and +1 wood?
This takes me to the whole secondary heroes levels close to your mains... In campaigns for example where I have tons and tons of money I just hire all heroes available and keep them as +1 creature buildings. Which is plains stupid to be allowed if you would ask me... But that belongs in another thread...
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted March 07, 2012 02:13 AM |
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I think the heroic charge thing is supposed to be an alternative to haste, as in if you just want the additionnal movement (to get across, for instance) but don't need the initiative, now you have something that gives damage instead of initiative (which is always nice). True that it's not very useful though.
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"You r the shakespeare of heroes vi, in every single battle i say: "he is gonna to loss"." - Cumulo88
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 07, 2012 12:23 PM |
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Edited by krs at 12:26, 07 Mar 2012.
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Ok, here it goes the first step.
Goal is to keep as much as possible of the existing system but repair some flaws.
PARAGON - there are 2 skills that do not belong here. They just make things more more complicated.
- Remove Mentoring completely. I do not see the need for this.
- Snatch. Move this to Realm. It is a secondary hero skill, the only thing keeping it here is its dependency to logistics. Cut it and move it to the Realm.
REALM One big problem here is that the third row is for might heroes only. (If secondary might heroes could reach level 15). So all of them should be moved lower so magic heroes can get them and to be more realistic.
- Architect 1 - Remains
- Architect 2 - Remains
- Architect 3 - Move one row down. It allows you to build an extra building, so why at level 15 on a secondary hero? It can find some use earlier though.
- Economist 1 keep
- Economist 2 keep
- Economist 3.... This icon is from the times H6 had 4 resources. Probably it was more useful also. Right now on a secondary hero level 15!!! gives 1 wood and 1 ore... Move one lower.
- Economist 4 - Add 1 extra Crystal. (New skill).
Scouting 1 - keep
Scouting 2 - keep
Scouting 3 - Remove and make it an adventure spell like it was before.
Plunder mine - keep
Sabotage mine - keep
Snatch is here on the second row. Moved from Paragon.
TACTICS
- Battle March - I see noo need for a separate skill. Can be put in siege master 1,2,3
- Siege Master 2 - Poison supplies and deal earth damage.... on a might hero... This skill make no sense. Needs rewriting.
WARCRIES
- Pressed attack: You will never use this when you have a large army. So make it available from level 1.
- Heroic charge- Rewrite or remove completely. Its a paladin charge for every creature...
WARFARE
-Archery 3... there are relic artifacts way better that this skill.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 07, 2012 10:03 PM |
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"The toughest choice was the revised skill system. It was discussed at length with the VIP fans from our private forum, and our first proposal was (justly) discarded in favour of the current system."
I am 100% VIP fans are just a scapegoat for the current system, but it would be interesting to know what was the "discarded" one. Anyone can shed some light?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 07, 2012 10:16 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 22:16, 07 Mar 2012.
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A couple of Diablo-style trees with three branches of around 15 skills each. Nothing anybody in their right mind would approve of. I can't stand the current system either. In certain ways, like class diversity, it's comparatively much much worse.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 07, 2012 10:27 PM |
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I gave my oppinions on this some time ago.
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What will happen now?
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 08, 2012 12:03 AM |
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@ Alcibiades I took a break from Heroes from October until January because I considered the game unplayable. Inherently I missed a lot of the discussions I am now interested in. The thread you were pointing to is more of a "we would have liked a Heroes 5 system with less randomness". (I totally expected that from H6  ), instead we we have to put up with this new system. It needs lots of improvements and to remain realistic about having a chance to see it done, we are reduced to think about small changes to make it better. And this is the purpose of this thread. Nevertheless lost between debates, I found 2 posts very to this point, that I would like to include in this thread:
by Odium
"
Like it was stated several times along this thread, within the current framework (no randomness in skills with pretty small trees, not many prerequisites aside from level) the only way to make the game less boring and more strategical is to modify the less efficient skills (which contrary to what some might argue I also find them to be many) and bring them as close as possible to the other skills. In particular, on the might side I find more of the same pattern for heroes. Maybe we could start a constructive discussion on the might abilities to see how can we reduce the difference between abilities.
First of all, I believe that there is a problem with the current categorization of skills. While the magic abilities have a logical pattern, for the might abilities there is a conglomerate of ablities which are actually non-magic and are simply labeled might. Many of these abilities are not related at all to might. Therefore, I believe that creating another category (support abilities, world abilities or whatever name) will bring more logic.
Might should not include:
From the paragon branch Diplomat, Enlightment, Mentoring, Logistics, Snatch, Pathfinding which are not related whatsoever with might and they can be part of the support abilities.
Realm: all realm skills have nothing to do with might.
So, if we were to make a structured assessment and optimization of the skills we will need to touch at least the following points in this order:
1. Decide which are good examples of level 1 skills, level 5 skills and level 15 skills. Since there is a big discrepancy between them we need to decide what should be the standard in terms of power.
2. Afterwards we should take the current abilities from the tree and try to figure if a certain ability corresponds in terms of power to the standard we've chosen at the previous point.
Now, to take things in order, I would say that good standards for their levels are:
1st lvl skill: Archery I
5th lvl skill: Evasive Maneuvers
15th lvl skill: Heroic Charge
"
by Xerox
"Okay, this is my idea on how to change the Skill system in General and the Might skills (plus some balancing).
Just like now, there are three Skill tiers.
The first at level 1, the second unlocks at level 5 and the third at level 10.
In order to progress to the next Skill tier, the Hero must spend atleast 2 Points in the previous tier of the same skill category.
So for instance, if I am level 2 Necromancer and want to get the Tier 2 Earth skill Mass Stone Skin, then I have to reach level 5 and spend 2 Skill points in the Tier 1 of the Earth magic tree.
I feel that this is the best way to help prevent a supermarket type of skill tree while still not forcing players to take skills that they really do not want.
Now here is how I would change the Might trees.
Paragon
The Paragon tree is mainly about the stats of your Heroes. As a result, I feel that it makes sense to move Arcane Exaltation (Magic power/mana) and Arcane Ward (Magic Defense/mana, very useful for Might heroes) to the Paragon tree.
- Arcane Exaltation and Arcane Ward has been moved to Paragon.
- Pathfinding, Diplomacy, Enlightenment, Logistics, Snatch and Mentoring have been moved to Realm.
Realm
I do not like the creation of lvl 1 heroes that pick obvious skills such as Architect 1. I do not like skills that force you to stay in your town instead of exploring. I want Realm to be a good tree to both main and secondary Heroes.
- Architect 1 has been removed.
- Architect 2 is now Architect 1 but still at Tier 2. Architect 3 is now Architect 2 but still at Tier 3. The new Architect 2 now has a 3 turn cooldown. The Hero no longer needs to be in a town for these Skills to have an effect, instead these Skills will affect the town within the Control Area that the Hero is currently located in.
Architect 1 was a boring non-brainer skill. I do not like skills that encourage you to park in a town window. Architect 2 (3) became to powerful without the requirement of having to be in a town, so I gave it a cooldown.
- Economist 1 is now called Resourcfulness and now leads up to Snatch, which has been moved from Paragon to Tier 2 Realm.
- Economist 2 is now Economist 1 at Tier . Economist 3 is now Economist 2 and is now Tier 2. It has been changed from +1 ore and wood per day to +1 resource from all mines in the Control area that the Hero is located in.
+1 wood and ore seemed weak and boring for a Tier 3 skill. I found +1 Mine production to be a little bit more strategic and fun. Economist 1 ties very well into Snatch, so I renamed it and made it become indepedant from the other Economist skills which did not relate to it.
- Logistics has been moved to Realm and has been merged with Scouting. In addition to its current effects, Scouting 1 now increases movement speed by 2, Scouting 2 by 4 and Scouting 3 by 6.
- Pathfinding, Diplomacy and Enlightenment are now Tier 1 Realm skills. Enlightenment leads up to Mentoring, which is now a Tier 3 Realm skill.
- Scouting felt like a weak skill, and Logistics is nowhere as good as it once was. It made sense to combine them.
Tactics
- Duck and Cover now makes your creatures use covers 20% more efficently, up from 13%.
- All Heroes now start with the old Tactics I. Tactics 2 is now only called Tactics, and is a Tier 1 Skill.
- Siege Master 1 now increases the damage dealt by Catapults by 4, up from 3.
- Siege Master 2 has been removed and replaced with the old Siege Master 3.
- The new Siege Master 3 now grants manual control over the Catapult.
I want to encourage people to use covers more often for a more strategic gameplay. I hate it that not all Heroes have Tactics and it's something that I really wish for Black Hole to change ASAP.
The siege talents felt weak and pointless and needed a buff. Manual Catapult is an obvious one, and ties nicely into the old Catapult 3.
Warcries
- There is now a new Warcry 1-3 Skill called Warcry Mastery, it increases the Might power of Warcries by 3 for each rank.
- Evasive Manuers has been changed to make a single creature immune to all attacks for X turns (highly dependant on Might power)
I think it makes sense that Warcries also should have a +Power skill. Some of them seem pretty weak when compared to some spells. Compare Stone skin with Stand Your Ground.
I feel that Evasive Manuvers was boring and a bit weak. This version is more interesting, they can just copy the Haven racial for it.
Warfare
- Archery 3 now once again removes ranged penalty.
Should not be overpowered with the new proposed skill system. I mean its -30% range penalty now and that sucks for a Tier 3 skill."
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 08, 2012 12:20 AM |
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Edited by krs at 00:36, 10 Mar 2012.
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After reading the above I have changed my current re-implementation of the skill system to this:
PARAGON - there are 2 skills that do not belong here. They just make things more more complicated.
- Remove Mentoring completely. I do not see the need for this.
- Snatch. Move this to Realm. and make it and upgrade depending on the current Economist 1.
REALM This is the place for SECONDARY heroes. It has ZERO to do with Might! (One big problem here is that the third row is for might heroes only) (If secondary might heroes could reach level 15). So if not made a separate choice altogether, at least allow magic heroes to get them.
Additionally the secondary Hero no longer needs to be in a town for these Skills to have an effect. Instead, these Skills will affect the town within the Control Area that the Hero is currently located in.
- Architect 1 - Remains (Although I would like to see it removed. Everyone takes it, no strategy in that).
- Snatch - Moved from Paragon. As Tier 2 Realm
- Economist III - Production of all mines in the area he's in is increased by one.
TACTICS
- Battle March - I see no need for a separate skill. Can be put in siege master 1,2,3
- Siege Master 2 - Poison supplies and deal earth damage.... on a might hero... This skill makes no sense. Needs rewriting.
- Siege Master 1 now also grants +1 movement to attackers.
- Siege Master 2 Catapult shots also deal 500 damage (Might) to stacks adjacent to their target. Friendly creature's Movement is increased by 2 in siege combats.
- [Siege Master 3] Grants manual control over the Catapult.
WARCRIES
- Pressed attack: You will never use this when you have a large army. So should be available from level 1.
- Heroic charge- Rewrite or remove completely. Its a paladin charge for every creature...
WARFARE
-Archery 3... there are relic artifacts way better that this skill.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 08, 2012 12:21 AM |
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Quote:
The thread you were pointing to is more of a "we would have liked a Heroes 5 system with less randomness". (I totally expected that from H6 ), instead we we have to put up with this new system. It needs lots of improvements and to remain realistic about having a chance to see it done, we are reduced to think about small changes to make it better.
Well, actually I disagree a bit with you on that, I think my point in the original post of that thread was to make some very doable changes to the current skill system that would improve it (imo. at least) but still keep the overall structure as it is - because as I see it, a complete redo of the skill system is not realistic in the end. But anyway, that's just my oppinion.
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Falconian
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 08, 2012 12:25 AM |
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I think there should be a lot of difference between a Might hero and a Magic hero's skill tree, same goes for Blood vs Tear.
Right now Magic & Tears are tons better than Might & Blood.
Furthermore, the "useful" skills are very few, to the point everyone has the same build.
In H5 there were tons of possible builds, this should be back in H6.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 08, 2012 12:29 AM |
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The only thing we disagree is the way we should change the skill tree .
In my view, a solution that tries mainly/only to "cosmetic" the actual system without any major structural changes is actually doable.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 08, 2012 08:58 AM |
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Quote:
In my view, a solution that tries mainly/only to "cosmetic" the actual system without any major structural changes is actually doable.
Doable, yes, but will it fix the problems?
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 08, 2012 09:50 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
In my view, a solution that tries mainly/only to "cosmetic" the actual system without any major structural changes is actually doable.
Doable, yes, but will it fix the problems?
They will do small fix patches until summer. And from the patch content so far they have(had) huge! problems with developers. So we will mainly get small fixes (exceptions being things already implemented but unreleased yet). This is why I would rather see a "quick" cosmetic fix in 2 months and hopefully a revamp of the whole system in 1.5-2 years.
For this improvements I see 2 steps necessary:
1) Identify structural problems with the current system (see my post above).
2) Break somehow the mall feeling of the system. (Variable skill points costs seems to be the solution for the moment).
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Neurf
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 08, 2012 01:43 PM |
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Hi there,
First time i post here so i should maybe start by a quick presentation.
I'm a french player (so excuse my englis  ), play mainly magic heroes (so i can be very unbalanced with might ones, by always judging them too strong...) and started playing heroes with H2 although i mainly played H3.
I also think that skill trees have a huge problem of conceptualization as they are now. But i like the idea of being abble to choose the spells you want.
Here is my general ideas :
1. Create a new tree for both magic and might. These trees would have general skills for might or magic and would be accessible to every heroes.
For might it would be Paragon tree without some skills (diplomat, mentor, enlightment) ajnd with some more (tactic). For magic it would be many of prime skills (global magic defense or offense boost, mana regeneration, meditation) and some paragon ones (mentor, enlightement)
2. Consider every "non-general" trees as secondaries so that they can be different (or not) for each factions. Specific factions trees could be implemented relatively easily that way.
Heroes would have access to 5 secondary trees
Possible secondary Might trees :
Realm
Tactic (plain = every battle outside a castle)
Tactic (siege = every battle for a castle)
Warcry
Warfare(ranged)
Warfare (close)
For magic trees, the magic schools are obvious.
3. The heroes gain skill points for might or magic trees at different rate.
A magic hero would gain 1 point for magic trees per level, and 1 point for might every 2-3 lvl.
A might hero would gain 1 point for might trees per level and 1 point for magic every 2-3 lvl.
Of course many changes are needed inside each tree to make them balanced (in term of power and of passive/active skills number) but i don't think it's the first step to do.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 10, 2012 12:53 AM |
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Some extra things the new skill tree needs to loose the mall feeling:
- You have to learn some skills from a tree to pick some high level skills. You need 2 level 1 skills to learn a level 2 (other prerequisites remain) and you need 1 level 2 in order to learn a level 3. This will "force" you to refrain from saving points and nitpick only 1-2 op skills from a school.
- Variable costs are a must. The level requirement is not enough of a differentiation. Some skills will simply be better, no matter how much tweaking. So make some skills cost 2 points.
- Lower the ultimate skill requirements from level 15 to level 10. The gap from when most skills become available (level 5) and level 15 is too big. Usually you have 10 levels to learn 3 core + 3 side skills. Leaving you with 3-4 levels where you mainly take some filler just because you have points, or save for level 15 and buy 4-5 Ultimate skills at once. Solution is to lower the requirements for level 3 skills to level 10 and increase the point costs for skills to good to be taken at 10.
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GueulEclator
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 10, 2012 01:09 AM |
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I don't get the point of those thread? Are those good potential moding project?
Or just a lame way to expel your frustration?
____________
you are all a bunch of no life hanging
for hours with da same game. F CUK
FU CK FU CK. BITC HES HOnestly you
all suck. And video game is
for children. This game mecanics are
outdated, total ... too long to display...
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted March 10, 2012 06:12 AM |
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The point of this thread, like many others, is the exact opposite of what you are doing. It's about being constructive for a change.
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