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| Thread: Sub-faction idea (credit to LizardWarrior) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted May 04, 2012 09:54 AM |
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Sub-faction idea (credit to LizardWarrior)
This idea is heavily inspired by LizardWarrior's Heroes of Black Star thread and is about a possible split in a future HOMM game of each faction into 3 different sub-factions. Every faction should have a different "Civilian" unit + a choice between 3 different line-ups having 3 creatures each (plus a special building and creature booster). You can choose any 2 factions. Also, the path that you choose affects the upgrade choice of your Civilian unit, and possibly the upgrade choice of the other paths (so a Lich with Flesh Path will become a Reanimator while a Lich with Spirit Path will become an Archlich).
Examples in Inferno, Necropolis, Academy and Dungeon:
Necropolis
Civilian: Zombie (Ghoul/Plague Zombie/Wight)
Path of Flesh: Mummy, Vampire, Death Knight- all about durability and relatively good damage, weakness is slow speed.
Path of Bone: Skeleton, Lich, Bone Wyrm- the most versatile of the paths.
Path of Spirit: Ghost, Banshee, Wraith- units are generally weaker yet more expensive, but are Incorporeal and have some serious debuff abilities!
Inferno
Civilian: Imp (Fire Imp/Familiar/Vermin)
Path of Flame: Gog, Nightmare, Efreet- all about damage and speed (plus resistance/immunity to Fire), weakness is vulnerability.
Path of Corruption: Possessed, Incubus/Succubs (dual forms), Devil- all about debuff abilities, generally weaker stats.
Path of Pain: Orthos, Toremntor, Pit Lord- a balance of damge and durability, offset by relative lack of abilities.
Academy:
Civilian: Gremlin (Mechanic/Apprentice/Scout)
Path of Machines: Golem, Immortal, Dragon Gun (a massive gatling gun manned by two Gremlins)- all about strong melee offense, slowness is big disadvantage.
Path of Arcane: Wadjet, Mage, Djinn- all about magical abilities, weakness is vulnerability and expensive price.
Path of the Desert: Nomad, Roc, War Elephant- all about mobility and relatively good damage, relative lack of abilities.
Dungeon:
Civilian: Troglodyte (Troglock/Dragon Guard/Scarred Troglodyte)
Path of Shadows: Stalker, Matriarch, Mind Reaver (a juvenile Faceless)- all about debuffs and mobility, weakness is relative vulnerability and not the best damage.
Path of the Wyrm: Gargoyle (Dragon-men), Drake Rider, Hydra- all about mobility and damage, weakness is very expensive prices.
Path of the Changed: Beholder, Minotaur, Chimera- very balanced with no real weakness or advantage.
And so and so on...
Opinions?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 04, 2012 10:29 AM |
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Could work, but you'd have to figure out some way to work 3 Elites and a Champion fairly. How about this?
3 sub-factions, A, B and C. When you pick:
A and B you get a Champion from A, but 2 Elites From B
B and C you get a Champion from B, but 2 Elites From C
A and C you get a Champion from C, but 2 Elites From A
Therein, each sub-faction actually has 4 units, a Core and an Elite which always appear and an Elite and a Champion which are exclusive of each other.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted May 04, 2012 02:38 PM |
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Hmmmm..
Ok. Maybe you get the Civilian unit, 1 Core from your "banned" faction (so Academy gets Golems, Nomads and Wadjets), 2 Cores from your "main" factions, 2 Elites from your "main factions", and a choice between the 2 Champions from your "main" factions.
So a possible Academy lineup (Machine/Desert) would look like this:
Civilian: Gremlin (shooter/support)
Core: Nomad (skirmisher), Wadjet (flyer/support), Golem (tank)
Elite: Roc (flyer), Immortal (tank)
Champion: Dragon Gun (shooter)
Also, you can make 3 kinds of Heroes per town: so Academy for example would get Alchemist (Machines), Wizard (Arcane) and Sheikh (Desert).
Necropolis likewise would get Ebon Knight (Flesh), Necromancer (Bone) and Occultist (Spirit).
Dungeon would get Warlock/Witch (Shadow), Dragon Lord (Wyrm) and Overlord (Changed).
Inferno would get Sorcerer (Flame), Heretic (Corruption) and Demoniac (Torment).
BTW, here are the remaining factions done this way:
Stronghold:
Civilian: Berserk (Hunter/Tribal Warrior/Frenzied Berserk)
Path of Cunning: Goblin, Hag, Rainbow Serpent- all about debuff abilities, relatively weak and vulnerable (Shaman)
Path of Might: Mauler, Sabercat Rider, Cyclops- nice and solid melee offense, weakness is speed (Warlord)
Path of Savagery: Harpy, Centaur, Behemoth- powerful offense, offset by vulnerability and unpredictability (a chance to go berserk) (Barbarian)
Haven:
Civilian: Peasant (Blessed/Militia/Enforcer)
Path of Light: Sister, Glory, Angel- nice and powerful, quite expensive though (Cleric)
Imperial Path: Sentinel, Gryphon, Cavalier- cheap, solid and mobile, though weaker than the other Paths (Knight)
Path of Twilight: Bowman, Zealot, Cuisinart- a balanced Path (Mercenary)
Rampart/Sylvan:
Citizen: Gnome (Elder Gnome/Leprechaun/Spriggan)
Path of the Elves: Sharpshooter, Keeper (a Druid-like unit), Phoenix (Druid)- all about speed and ranged offense, offset by vulnerability
Path of the Wild: Timber Wolf, Unicorn, Dendroid (Ranger)- all about melee offense and durability, relative lack of abilities
Path of the Fey: Pixie, Ogre, Glamer Dragon (Enchanter)- all about debuffs and resistant to magic, units all have a specific weakness though (vulnerable Pixies, slow Ogres, vulnerable, weak and expensive Glamer Dragons)
Sanctuary:
Civilian: Fisherman (Sailor/Ordained Monk/Pirate)
Path of the Naga: Medusa, Ninja, Kensai (Samurai)- solid and powerful, relatively expensive.
Path of the Spring: Kappa, Mizu-Kami, Kirin (Mystic)- all about special abilities, relatively expensive.
Path of the Deep: Wanimaze, Cloud Ray, Kraken (Captain)- weak yet plentiful and cheap.
Fortress:
Civilian: Wildman (Poacher/Savage/Mudman)
Path of Scales: Lizardman, Wyvern, Basilisk- all about poison and ranged offense, cheap and plentiful, offset by relative weakness (Headhunter)
Path of Claws: Marauder (a hyena-riding Gnoll), Troll, Gorgon- all about melee attack, relative slowness (Beasmaster)
Path of the Swamp: Serpent Fly, Waspwort, Loa (a tiki-mask wearing spirit)- all about magical abilities and debuffs- but weak in all other aspects (Witch Doctor)
Thus, the Citizen class also explains the existence of human heroes in otherwise non-human factions (as the Sanctuary towns perhpas lie underwater, but control all the coastal villages).
Also, usually the Heroes represent a balance between Might and Magic- so if we take Dungeon for example the Warlock is the most magic-oreinted, the Dragon Lord is middle while the Overlord is all Might- but it's not always the case.
BTW- the Stronghold Berserk and the Fortress Wildman are two different stereotypes of the savage- a more straight-up warrior (take the European Barbarians or Azetcs as example) in face of a more cunning guerilla fighter.
Opinions?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 04, 2012 10:17 PM |
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So what happened to the bit where you have 3 Elite units? You now have what looks to be 4 Core units, 2 Elites and a Champion.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted May 05, 2012 02:29 AM |
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Answer
Because u pick 2 "main" factions, u can only use their Elites and Champions. Also, the Citizen-class creatures are weaker than Core.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 05, 2012 09:41 AM |
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I think this is interesting. Each subfaction seems to have their own style of play.
my main concern is when you would choose it in game. will it be before the start of the game or somewhere in game?
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted May 05, 2012 10:01 AM |
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Thnx for the good feedback...
Not too sure about when u pick subfactions- either in the Town screen or before the game. Maybe the Hero you pick decides your sub-factions- not too sure though...
Any interesting ideas?
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted May 09, 2012 12:40 PM |
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I'd say befor ethe game in the screen where you also choose your faction.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 09, 2012 10:04 PM |
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Personally I say on a town-by-town basis, before you start is just too restrictive IMO.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted May 10, 2012 03:39 PM |
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But it would prevent the "****! Why did the ******* other player choose a different subfaction than me???" effect which was seen as one of the main faults of H4 (which of course also had many too obvious choices...)
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 10, 2012 10:41 PM |
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Since you're presumably still working with individual dwellings, it actually exacerbates it, since you know that every last one of the enemy's towns is going to be set up like that.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted May 11, 2012 03:43 PM |
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted May 11, 2012 04:47 PM |
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I think what Matt there means, is that once you know what path the AI has chosen, you'll know which dwellings the other castles will have. Assuming of course that it isn't chosen randomly.
As for the idea in General. Apart from the flaw Jiriki pointed out, it's not that different from the exercise I'm working on, though more rigid.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted May 11, 2012 07:31 PM |
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My opinion
You can make a Conversion possible (or not- depending on the mapmaker's choice) from one sub-faction to the other. Besides- the creatures will always overlap, at least partially (in the Core and Elite ranks).
So these are two options. And I say the subfaction will be chosen in-game, on the town-screen- so for example in Academy after you build a Core dwelling you can build the Elite dwelling of its respective subfaction (for example Nomad opens up the Roc), and Champion respectively.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 12, 2012 08:35 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 08:38, 12 May 2012.
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Quote:
I think what Matt there means, is that once you know what path the AI has chosen, you'll know which dwellings the other castles will have. Assuming of course that it isn't chosen randomly.
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. Also, if your choose prior to the game starting then every town is going to be exactly the same.
Quote:
You can make a Conversion possible (or not- depending on the mapmaker's choice) from one sub-faction to the other. Besides- the creatures will always overlap, at least partially (in the Core and Elite ranks).
You thinking of a one-action conversion, or tearing down and rebuilding each dwelling individually?
Also, maybe you choice of sub-factions would affect your choice of special buildings, two special buildings per sub-faction.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted May 12, 2012 10:38 AM |
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Yes, of course the sub-faction choice will affect the special buildings. I give you an example with Dungeon:
Path of Shadows:
- Faceless Idol- +3% spell damage
- Breath of Malassa- like Cover of Darkness
Path of the Wyrm
- Gaping Maw- sacrifice creatures to increase your creature growth (critical for this sub-faction that suffers some of the lowest growth rates due to its extra-powerful creaures)
- Dragon's Hoard- Like Artifact Merchant
Path of the Changed:
- Ludus- +1000 experience
- Lightless Maze- Minotaur horde building (basically upping the growth of the faction's- and arguably the Dungeon's- most important unit).
In addition, each town gets 1 Horde dwelling for its Core creatures- Elite and Champion Horde-buildings are sub-faction-specific (for example Necropolis Spirit gets a Wraith horde building).
I think my system would work like this:
A town can build up to City Hall and Citadel normally. You need to have 2 Elite dwellings built (factions chosen) to upgrade to Capitol and Castle.
Tavern, Marketplace + Resource Silo, Blacksmith, Shipyard also standard.
The Civilian is recruited at the Fort and doesn't require a dwelling.
Maybe they don't even require Gold to purchase and are automatically recruited to fill your garrison. The 3 Core dwellings can be built normally + 1 Horde dwelling for your Core units. To build an Elite dwelling, you need to have the Core dwelling of its faction built- for example the Beholder dwelling (Pillar of Eyes) is mandatory for the Minotaur dwelling (Labyrinth), alongside other possible requirements. The Special buildings request a Choice of either a Core or Elite dwelling built (usually Elite), and in general you can choose 4. Finally, you can select 1 Champion dwelling out of 2, and it requires 2 Elite dwellings to be built.
So basically its all about narrowing choices, which affect playstyle. Every town has 3 Hero classes, which fit a specific playstyle more- but of course a Warlock could command a Changed army just fine, just not as good as an Overlord (as the Shadow line-up units mesh more smoothly with the class' magical nature).
Questions?
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted May 12, 2012 04:34 PM |
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Quote:
- Dragon's Hoard- Like Artifact Merchant
Jus tan idea that popped into my mind: Why not make this not just as the ordinary artifact merchant - but lets you sacrifice creatures (To the mighty dragons of the hoard) instead for getting an artifact. Maybe you could even do that step by step...
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted May 12, 2012 08:17 PM |
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Hrmphhh
You mean like to recruit Red/Black Dragons? Neh, I prefer to keep them as Boss creatures, which you can recruit 1 of if you have a Tear of Asha structure in town. Cheers!
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted May 13, 2012 04:09 PM |
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ehm, no that's not what I meant.^^
What I meant is that you can, at the building SACRIFICE creatures you have in the town - they will be given to the dragon/s living in the hoard, as slaves and/or food. In exchange for enough creatures sacrificed, the dragon/s will let you choose an artifact from their hoard.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted May 13, 2012 07:51 PM |
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More Special Buildings
Sounds nice- but one of my Inferno Special buildings (Altar of Chaos in the Corruption Path) works like that- an Altar of Sacrifice, that gives random rewards- luck bonus, stat bonus, experience, extra creatures, random artifacts etc. etc. Of course the more creatures you sacrifice the higher chances you get something good. Also the Dragons are GREEDY- so they would want gold and precious resources above anything else.
Maybe an experience sacrifice would also be interesting- because they are creatures of Malassa, Goddess of Secrets, and they require a sacrifice of knowledge for their treasures.
Its not like they're missing Troglodytes to eat, and tastier man-flesh when the Dungeon goes to war...
Some specific sacrifice formulas though allow you to control the results of what you get (but they usually require high-level non-Inferno creatures and sometimes Neutral units- saving possible abuse for mid to late game, and encouraging aggressive playstyle to capture good sacrifices).
Just because I'm feeling creative- Special buildings for the other "nasty" factions (the most ineresting heh...), Inferno and Necropolis:
Inferno:
Path of Flame:
Infernal Loom- +1 Spell Power for a visiting hero.
Screaming Stables- Nightmare Horde building.
Path of Corruption:
Altar of Chaos- as described above.
Demonic Idol- -2 Luck to enemies during siege.
Path of Pain:
Maw of Urgash- like Castle Gate. Kills a certain amount of non-Demonic units when using the Gate (though most Stronghold creatures are also immune, being part Demonic).
Hell Hole- Increases Gating efficiency by 5%.
Necropolis:
Path of Flesh:
Eternal Watchers- -2 enemy morale during siege.
Necrotic Beacon- +5% effectiveness to Necromancy.
Path of Bone:
Bone Pit- Skeleton Horde building (Necropolis is the only faction with 2 Horde buildings).
Shrine of White Death- transforms all non-Construct, non-Incorporeal, non-Elemental creatures into the respective Bone creatures of their level (Skeleton for Civilian/Core- though you get 1 Skeleton per 2 Civilian units, Lich for Elite, Bone Wyrm for Champion). Of course you need to have the Lich and Bone Wyrm dwellings built to get them.
Path of Spirits:
Soul Prison- Allows you to re-recruit slain Undead creatures in town.
Gate of the Damned- Wraith Horde building.
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