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| Thread: Carefull they have hostages |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 12:02 AM |
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meh they should just have made conversion an option
It is "an option". Unfortunately, it's a "choice" in pretty much exactly the same way as "building troop buildings in your capital" is a "choice". If you convert a city, you will increase your troop production in every unit type in your faction that you have in your army. Which, since conversion does that, pretty much means that your late game army is fairly guaranteed to contain all of the units in your faction, which in turn means that converting a city increases the production rate of every single unit type in your army.
So it's an "option" that is so much better than not taking it that in the long run there really isn't a choice at all. As soon as you can afford to, you will convert every single thing you capture.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 12:12 AM |
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I meant that before the game starts, you can turn it off if you want too.
Was faction mixing really that common in the multiplayer of the previous games?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 12:29 AM |
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I meant that before the game starts, you can turn it off if you want too.
That would be interesting. I think that Heroes VI would be a deeper game if you couldn't convert cities, but all of the campaign maps are designed completely around the concept that you can.
Quote:
Was faction mixing really that common in the multiplayer of the previous games?
It's extremely common for a host of reasons. The biggest and most obvious is that in every edition of the game there are a lot of units that are not that good. A Druid could seriously be swapping out their Dwarves for Titans. The second is that while you take a morale hit for mixing factions, previous editions of the game also handed out a morale maximum - a late game Knight was not paying any functional morale cost to put Elvish or Wizardly troops into his army. And the third big reason is that troops accumulated in cities, irrespective of who owned them when. So if you rolled up to a Dungeon whose owner hadn't been able to afford to set up their Minotaur King contingent, you could find yourself with a Maze that had been sitting there accumulating an army of minotaurs since the first or second week. Just throw down a wad of cash and you have a fully functional Minotaur King force (or whatever) to splice into your army. And it might even be replacing a stack of your own faction's troops that has taken heavy losses and is now almost useless (you did just win a siege battle, after all). And fourth, but perhaps no less important than the others: your army moves at the rate of the slowest troop in it. This means that armies get inter-factional synergy for movement rates.
But whatever the reason, seeing a late-game army composed of the top-end of two or three factions is not unusual in any version of Heroes of Might and Magic. Except Heroes VI, where there's really no reason for that to happen.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 01:21 AM |
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Edited by jhb at 05:04, 15 Jul 2012.
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I think that Heroes VI would be a deeper game if you couldn't convert cities
Well, I disagree, but they could implement an option like Xerox said.
I think this fact has pros and cons, is a bit of personal preference. I remember in the old games to use most of the 'foreign' units as meat shields  (and I do that abit in H6 too). Because as you already started a huge investiment in your initial town for creatures, upgrades and growth rates, is a better deal to keep them, unless the map is really not favorable. As an example, your are faction X, but the other 4 towns in the map are faction Y, you will end up changing factions. I remember when I was playing a map in H5, inferno campaign, when you were invading the elves, this is pretty much the same situation, I was forced to use sylvan units  no gating, no fun lol.
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 08:42 AM |
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I like the in-game option of converting towns, just like now. It should add another strategic layer. But the present implementation is too much in favor of converting town. I think there should be mechanics so that players have to choose wisely, whether they want to convert towns, or not.
For example :
1) converting towns need time; the more advanced the town, the more days you need to convert it. A fully built town with capitol might requires 14 days of conversion.
2) converting towns cost revert the town to a basic tier 1 town with no dwellings. Logically I can not see how converting an Inferno to Sanctuary give me instant Sanctuary dwellings.
3) converting towns should be more expensive than at present.
etc.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 09:01 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 09:04, 15 Jul 2012.
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Tier 1 towns, does that mean only Forts and Village Halls, or just no dwellings?
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 09:18 AM |
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Tier 1 towns, does that mean only Forts and Village Halls, or just no dwellings?
Tier 1 = Village Hall. No dwellings, no special buildings. Fort, market all other general economy buildings maybe still survive the conversion to avoid too harsh penalty.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 09:39 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 09:41, 15 Jul 2012.
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Tier 1 = Village Hall. No dwellings, no special buildings. Fort, market all other general economy buildings maybe still survive the conversion to avoid too harsh penalty.
Why knock it right back to Village Hall?, who not just back a single tier (so a Capitol becomes a City, a City becomes a Town, and a Town becomes a Village)? Add that to a time of a week or more, and that's going to give some real disincentives to convert unless it's safe and you need to.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 09:47 AM |
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As long as you conquer cities and they come with zero creatures in the recruitment pool (because Heroes VI troop dwellings send troops to the player's recruitment pool rather than having their own), and it is possible to trade out a conquered city's future production of troops for more production of the troops, then the long term utility function is always going to favor conversion. Making it more expensive and/or more annoying to convert a town is just going to make it more expensive or more annoying - it isn't actually going to change the fact that converting a town will give you twice as many units of every type you use vs. not converting.
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esvath
Known Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 09:50 AM |
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Edited by esvath at 09:54, 15 Jul 2012.
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If the disincentive is mixed between demolished buildings, converting time and cost, then yes, each disincentive can be lesser than what I has suggested.
For example : converting requires a day per building destroyed (with maximum converting time is seven days), demolish all dwellings+special buildings, degrade town level by one, and cost 500 gold per building destroyed.
This way, I hope the disincentives can balance the incentives of converting.
Edit : at hobo2 :
But if all dwellings are destroyed in converting process, then players will not have the instant benefit of double creature growth.
My main problem with current converting is the instant benefit of double creature growth, not the benefit itself.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 10:37 AM |
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Yeah, knock out all buildings, and make it cost 1 day per building converted/destroyed (there's 15 in all, if we count the hall and fortifications as one each, and don't include the grail building), and you could easily end up with a town that's uneconomic to convert because it takes, as well as the resource cost, a week and ends up getting conquered and the conversion stopped. Would have been even more expensive in Heroes 5, what with the Blacksmith, Shipyard and Mage Guild, plus at least one hoard building.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 05:25 PM |
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Edited by jhb at 18:08, 15 Jul 2012.
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Quote:
If the disincentive is mixed between demolished buildings, converting time and cost...
this could be an interesting idea, I'm in favor of giving the player a more strategic choice about when you are going to convert the towns.
The problem is to balance the convertion to don't be so easy like it is now, don't be just more expensive like hobo2 said and be viable with what we have currently in h6. We also need to consider if the town is recaptured before the process.
@MattII hmm, yea maybe, could keep the capitol or city hall, at least, to don't make the things too slow.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 09:02 PM |
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Another thought might be to see the Town Portals get destroyed too.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 15, 2012 09:43 PM |
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What I would prefer is a system where having a capital caused your other cities to make an amount of troops of your faction based on your development level. So you'd always gain something for conquering and developing a new city, but you could still field troops from the cities you actually conquer as well. Of course, that would have to be a solution for Heroes VII, I don't think Heroes VI is really salvageable on this end. The Conversion leads to a boring and repetitive decision tree, but you pretty much need to use it as-is in order to get enough troops to beat the bosses of the campaign maps.
While we're at it, I would like to see Leadership caps come back. If there was a limit to how many Marksmen you could have in a stack, you wouldn't feel constrained to necessarily always pick all choices that would increase your weekly development of Marksmen. That would open up a lot more potential strategies - especially if you could have two stacks of a single unit and have them apply the leadership cap separately (either with or without a special skill to do that).
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 16, 2012 09:57 PM |
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Leadership caps, not necessarily a bad idea, but never a popular one.
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moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 19, 2012 05:34 PM |
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"The person who answered that question is not longer with us and he was being optimistic at the time. For now there will be 1 expansion with 1 faction (as hinted in the epilogue) and if it sells well, then maybe another will be made. "
Starts to sound like blackmail to me.
Did it actually go from "There will be 5 factions with 2 more coming in the expansions" to "Maybe we'll arse ourselves with another expansion if you give us more undeserved money" ?
Yeah, can't say I regret not buying this game. Ubihole can stick it where the sun don't shine.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 20, 2012 12:01 AM |
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Why is H3 Fortress even in the poll?  It's perfectly obvious there is zero intention of ever recreating a swamp town, ever (well okay, unless a whole new company takes over for a H7 project years down the road).
It's almost equally obvious that Dungeon is the next up. They did a lot more than hint at it in the campaign. They pretty much came just short of saying "Dungeon is next.".
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 20, 2012 12:05 PM |
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It's almost equally obvious that Dungeon is the next up. They did a lot more than hint at it in the campaign. They pretty much came just short of saying "Dungeon is next.".
Well, they also wrote that from the perspective of Academy already being in the game, as they were originally intended to be. The Academy is half there, the internal docs talk about Academy heroes and Academy troops. The campaigns talk about the Academy constantly and there are characters who are supposed to be "Wizards" but are instead some other class because Academy was cut at the last minute.
So from an "obvious" standpoint, the Academy is just as obvious as the Dungeon. The Dungeon is supposed to be "next", but the Academy is supposed to be "sixth".
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted July 21, 2012 01:19 AM |
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I like options, like in Civ 4. You could turn on or off everything from barbarians to the world being flat, to war itself. As long as they don't waste too much time on a feature that few people like, and there is some clear agreed on tournament format, I'd be fine with them implementing everything.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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bigjocker
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Forgotten but not Forsaken
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posted July 22, 2012 12:05 PM |
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Sorry for spoiler but...
it will be Academy and MAYBE Conflux.
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HoMM3Lite
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