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| Thread: The Swords of Night and Day (re-released as an Era 2.4 mod) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 12:11 AM |
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That does seem to be a significant difference. In BP2 I used different timer numbers and (after further testing) have yet to see a crash there. Whereas I just put the end-turn commands back into SND for testing and again got the same crash (EIP=0x4242D1) twice in a row.
SND uses Tobyn's Universal Timer script, which allows the use of just TM1 and TM2 for all timers - and so SND uses TM2 for several different things (night of the Wraiths, etc.).
However, the crash in SND occurs after both of the day-one TM2 triggers mentioned above have executed, at a point when the Red AI has begun to move - so I think all timers for that day have been processed. Still, so far it seems the crash only happens in conjunction with the use of the TUT script.
I am too lazy to take out the TUT script and put in a new set of timers. so I will probably just leave the map without the automatic end-turn.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 18, 2013 03:09 AM |
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Quote:
I don't like to force a player to follow a set course
Making a "free to go" map it then forcing the player to restart until he follows your test pattern by elimination leads to same result.
I explored around, took me about 3 months to get the three quests, explore a bit east, forest of dragons, then tried to return to center. By this time I got attacked twice by wraiths between turns, once won, second no way to win. So now I have to restart and not lose my time to go east because there is nothing to do and obviously I will lose game from doing that. At end I had only 7 XP, very far from any upgrade.
Result: map solution is straight (like all maps around, no big deal), do the three quests, then go to arena and reload if angel catch you. The ogres test is easy to do since first try and has same pattern: place mage in first slot, advance + cure, 2 XP. I guess I have to do same battle 15 times to get to 30 XP.
ZEOBJTS contains data from 1.09 patch, but map does not use any, neither the pac has them, I think it can be removed from the package and replaced by Objects folder with the few new objects data only.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 04:07 AM |
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I don't like a set course that forces a player to do A and then B and then C because I prefer to read hints and try to figure out the best way to proceed. To me this is closer to real life (having to weigh evidence and choose and making mistakes) and as I got older the more realistic the characters in a book or a movie are, the better I like them. (This was not true when I was young and read Superman comics.) So there are hints to visit the Academies, then farms, then the Arena to get training, and then visit Knu Knu, and a warning about entering the East Wood. I think a problem with this method is that some people don't like to read hints, or have difficulty interpreting them if English is not their first language (or maybe my hints are not good enough, always a possibility). Both of my play-testers for the WoG 3.58f version were English speakers, and neither of them voiced problems. However, they are familiar with my methods. I am sure many people prefer the forced-path method though.
I have accumulated one big set of ZxxxxTS.txt files with all my new and modified DEF's. It contains many objects which were not used in SND, but also some new objects which the map uses. The compressed size of these text files should be a small part of the archive file size.
Thanks again for your observations. Some day I may get a map right. (Probably not, because I have been losing interest and doubt if I will make any more.)
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 18, 2013 04:31 AM |
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Hints may interfere with adventure map exploring if you leave open space. Hints are always two edged, there is hint: "go there and do this" and there is subtle hint as "finish your training in warfare" which the player may interpret in various ways. Warfare is a skill for me, first reaction is to look if I have it, I don't. Then nothing prevents me exploring, east woods may be something very precise for the mapmaker, but for me as player every pack of trees I see is a forest, and there are tons of them at east.
Even if arena is the way to progress, my competitive instinct loudly yells to find something else to advance than fighting 6 harpies 30 times.
Players feedback help me to improve the way to design a map. I am not always happy with critics but I remember them next time I design something.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 07:27 AM |
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I can't think of any words used in Heroes 3 which were not common English terms for about 500 years before the program was created (logistics, pathfinding, ballistics, artillery, dragon, etc. - you could google any of them and the first several references will not involve the Heroes program). The convention I was taught in English class and try to follow is that when you use a common word in a very specific, restricted sense, you capitalize it. For example, "hero" is a common English word, but when I am referring to a character in the Heroes program which can be recruited in a Heroes Tavern, I use "Hero" to distinguish it from the ordinary English term. So if I were to refer to the Warfare script I would capitalize it, and if I used it in its common English sense I would not. I realize this information comes too late, but perhaps (doubtful) it might help in some other English-language game.
I have tried to play a couple of games which were written in French, and did not understand them well. In a perfect world we would all speak the same language from birth, and it would probably be Esperanto (or maybe some form of Chinese).
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 03:38 PM |
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Quote:
than fighting 6 harpies 30 times.
Same problem as in "King In Yellow", I think. It's very boring to perform the same battle 2, 3, 4...10 times to get another piece of gold or exp. Just to mention 
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 05:45 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 17:51, 18 Jan 2013.
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This won't change anyone's opinions (which I know are legitimate), but I worry a bit that some exaggeration may be giving a false impression of the map. I have played it several times and never fought Harpies 30 times. The battles include:
Three different battles to start: Witch, Poison Frogs, and Wild Bull (with randomly varying Death Stare).
Arena: six different monster types randomly selected for group one (including Harpies); five different higher-level creatures in group two; Winged Warriors which chase the Hero in the Arena and which are rewarded with significant gold but which cause the experience levels of all the preceeding creatures to increase by two for each win; Gauntlet battle in which the Ogres increase in damage skill after every win; Labyrinth battle in which the labyrinth changes randomly from battle to battle and the Minotaur becomes stronger with each win; and a Gladiator Ladder of seven different creatures.
A battle with the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog.
Wraith attacks once a month north of Silver Rune, and increasing to once per night as you go south.
Battles with tomb guards and a Mummy in the Tomb of Imhotep.
Battles with various Dragons and Wyverns to get through the East Wood (which is labeled as such in a Sign).
Battles with Stone Men in the Perilous Passes.
Battles with Storm Giants for Electrum (if you can't pay their fees).
Battles with Bugs, Fire Elementals, and Sun Warriors to obtain the Sword of Day, and battles with Nightmares, Ice Elementals, and Moon Guards to obtain the Sword of Night.
Battle versus Megathon, who acts multiple times per round.
A similar list could be made for "The King in Yellow".
I agree that it would be better to have much more variety, but don't want readers to think there was no effort to provide any variety.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 18, 2013 05:56 PM |
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Well, I play it for first time so most likely I don't do the optimal actions (thats why asking, not to upset) but:
-Going out south/east to explore and seek for better experience ways made me lose the game, because random attacks grow, while my stats don't move.
-In Arena at first level ogres can be fought once, second time they catch the mage and eat him alive, so this is 2 exp out of 30/50.
-At this moment only first level arena fights can be done, and this require a)save, b) generate monsters c) reload if they too strong (dragons) d) fight one of them e) save, try to reach second by going south to avoid the angel who is chasing you (I) f) kill the second monster, g) save, h) try to avoid the angel who is chasing you (II) and do a full arena circle to get out i) get 1 exp point -note: the mapmaker knows exactly how the angel moves are scripted, I as player don't. All I know is that if he gets me, game is lost, saving before every action is required-
(I tested all arena fights and they look very nice, however there is long way before engaging in second level and so on)
Vames needs 30 exp points to go next level. Jalery needs 50. I wanted to test the outcome and I told my competitive and exploration instinct to shut it up so I did the arena fight 15 times then went back to town to get promotion. Vames got...15% damage deflection
This is very small bonus, thus now I have to do arena 10 times more and see what Jalery will get. As I said, I am playing for first time so maybe I am not going where it needs, but one thing I am sure: now I am following the given hints.
I am not a cheater in heart, but I was really curious to see the maze and all the colored things around, so I thought: "ok, I got the arena concept, let's do some variable manipulation, get faster levels and walk a bit around"-I know mapmakers hate that but hey! I have an advantage, not erm totally noob-.
Oops...scripts are internal, can't do that, have to do it the hard way.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 06:32 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 18:42, 18 Jan 2013.
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My worry was that the map was too easy, so in a way I am relieved to hear that. Of course there is a huge advantage to knowing the map. However, my nephew Zachary was able to win the game in his first try (or at least in one sitting, maybe he restarted), in about six or eight hours of play (the maze was the hardest part for him). In my play-test for the Era version, I fought both Werewolves (group 1) and a Red Dragon (group 2) for my first Arena battle. I lost the Mage versus the Red Dragon but won the battle and Leora healed the Mage. That gave me +2 EP. Then I did the Gauntlet for another +2. Then I fought the Minotaur for +5, then Minimus at the bottom of the Gladiator Ladder for I think +3 EP. Meanwhile, I had gotten +Defense from the Gauntlet and +Attack from the Labyrinth so I was a bit stronger, and was at 15 EP, halfway to the first promotion. At the second Gladiator battle against Brutus, you start to gain +A and +D for the Gladiator victories also. At 5 and 10 victories in the Gauntlet and the Labyrinth there are extra A and D bonuses. The first Academy promotion will come before that, and the 15% deflection will make all the battles a bit easier. There are several more promotions available, eventually giving 75% deflection and other bonuses.
Thanks for spending so much effort on the map. (And reading my ramblings.)
P.S. About the internal scripts: In my first couple Era tries, I used external scripts but couldn't find a way to make them wogify automatically, without showing the "Are you sure you want to wogify this map?" message at the start of the game, which confuses some people. The only way I could get rid of it was to make the scripts internal and use the UN:P code - the UN:P code did not over-ride the wogify message when I used external scripts. So for user convenience I made the scripts internal. Maybe Bersy has fixed this issue and I could go back to external scripts - I haven't tried this since Era 2.3.
P.P.S. You could use the cheat codes (wogeyeofsauron, etc.) to look around - don't become such a hi-tech wizard that you forget what we had to do in the good old days. (Yes, I still have a wooden slide-rule. Why do you ask?)
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 07:31 PM |
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Wogify = load external erm scripts. If map contain internal scripts, the question is "Warning!!! This map contains internal scripts...bla-bla-bla". Btw, Era settings have option "always wogify" on by default.
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2013 03:04 AM |
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Yes, but some people prefer the "Wogify but ask first" setting, so they can play SoD maps as they were designed to be played, and then they get the message. With internal scripts it doesn't matter what their WoG setting is. With external scripts there is no way to over-ride the WoG setting from the WoG menu. I should not have implied this was something to be fixed though. It probably is the best way that things could be arranged.
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2013 06:22 PM |
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Edited by Bersy at 18:29, 19 Jan 2013.
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But it makes no sense to play SoD map, while SoD executable can be run from the same folder. Maybe Era should set this option to "always" value?
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2013 08:12 PM |
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Edited by JimV at 20:12, 19 Jan 2013.
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Actually I forgot the biggest reason that SND has internal scripts: it was developed under WoG 3.58f.
Yes, the SoD executable is still there, but some people (well, me) forget this and just click the WoG eye-icon on the desktop whenever they want to play.
As I said, I have come around to thinking that the current set-up (of Era) is the best way. If there were a way to set a UN:P code (with ERM) so that the map would be wogified (despite the external settings of the WoG Menu) but without causing a message to appear during loading, I would use that - but it isn't worth changing the executable.
I think from now on (if I do any more maps) I will use external scripts and depend on users to have the "wogify/don't ask" setting. The advantages will outweigh the disadvantages.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted January 19, 2013 08:27 PM |
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Quote:
I think from now on (when I do many more maps) ...
Fixed,JimV!
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 19, 2013 08:33 PM |
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I use external scripts even for sod maps played ...without scripts.
I create mod, s folder with external script and no wogify settings. In this way, I can play a sod map the way it was intended, but with a chance to debug it if something goes wrong (almost always, from week of creatures blocking the way to AI freezing).
For SoD I also add a few useful features, as buy all, display movement, enhanced hints. Turbo wog is the latest "can't play without", 1-2 minutes battles are all that my patience can handle anymore.
Wogify: frankly is not a real problem. Until users will understand how wogify works with era custom maps, I just add info:
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Era II mods and utilities
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Bersy
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2013 08:43 PM |
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted January 19, 2013 08:46 PM |
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Quote:
Turbo wog is the latest "can't play without", 1-2 minutes battles are all that my patience can handle anymore.
Is it located between the pages of Era Mods thread or elsewhere?
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 19, 2013 08:52 PM |
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Turbo wog, compatible with any mod, except fast animation mod (must be disabled)
You will be shocked at first.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted January 19, 2013 09:08 PM |
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Without knowing german-
(improvising)Thus ist phantastisch!
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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JimV
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 19, 2013 09:16 PM |
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Thanks for the downloads (Bersy and Salamandre). Master, thanks for the encouragement but we need some new mapmakers - perhaps you?
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