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| Thread: Heroes IV: Strategic Gameplay |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 23, 2002 03:25 AM |
bonus applied. |
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Heroes IV: Strategic Gameplay
As we draw nearer and nearer to the release of Heroes IV, and consequently, find out more about the game, by will or not, we now have the capability to figure out a strategy for the way we play the game. As many members here have shown, they have great knowledge of this game, and to elaborate this knowledge and extend the boundaries to put these facts into perspective, I have created this thread, in order to do just that. Knowledge on a particular subject is an excellent thing to possess, but it is useless if nothing can be done with it. In the game Heroes IV, there are many pieces to the puzzle, ones, which I am willing to fit together. Relatively recently, Oldtimer, has put together several threads about the ‘First Impressions’ of certain castles. That particular topic is one of the many I hope to discuss in this thread. By placing the best combinations of towns, heroes, maps, and locations, a glimpse of ‘theoretical’ Heroes IV gameplay will start to emerge, and we may start to get a feel for the game, without even playing a minute. Singular facts are important, so, why not combine them and do what was intended for them in this thread; to discuss regular and advanced Strategic Gameplay.
OK. Obviously, the castle statistics have been released, and I trust that most people here have at least scanned them. This is vital for figuring out strategies, as the towns in Heroes IV are linked to their spell system and skills. This makes the initial choice of a town harder, and more thought is needed. I believe it is no longer adequate to pick your favourite town for a map. My view on a certain towns performance lies in the resource cost. Obviously, the towns raw hit points and attack skills ARE unbalanced, but this aspect has no effect on the ‘bang for buck’ theory used by many of the senior players of the Heroes series. Yes, the Black Dragon is again the unchallenged champion of creatures, with 400 HP under its belt. But with its outrageous cost, one may think twice before purchasing this powerful creature. As an example, you can recruit a Hydra for half the price, and get two of them per week. The first week gain may not seem like much, 100 HP and a higher attack and defence skill; but as the weeks draw on, the overall gain you make by recruiting the ‘weaker’ creature is enormous. This can make a huge impact to how you approach the game, as there is no longer just one creature for that particular level.
I think one of the most dramatic changes within the town itself has to be the controversial decision between creatures of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels. Obviously, this as consequently meant less available creatures in the game. Making a decision between these creatures constitutes many different factors, which are considered vital throughout the game. One of which are the special abilities the creatures of that level possess, and their overall influence on the map and their opponent/s. A skill such as chaos ward, possessed by the power-lacking Titan, would have no effect on the Necropolis town. Where as, instead of using a slightly weaker creature and floundering the ability, of the Titan, why not recruit the Dragon Golem instead? That way, one will receive an extra performance boost, and a few special abilities, which actually have some relevance to the style of gameplay and opponents one could have the possibility of facing. The special abilities of creatures have become, in my mind, a more important factor in battle. In the days of Heroes II, when a special ability was not customary, the creatures that did have special abilities, only had one, which was much of a prominent difference. In Heroes IV, all creatures have one or more abilities, making them less treasured, but of a bigger threat and importance.
Heroes and their skills will play a big part in the gameplay, as Heroes have now, I think, have become more important with the extended range of rules available, and their prominent feature in developing a worthwhile Kingdom. All skills have their pros and cons, and the job you ultimately have to administrate is how to use them to your benefit in an efficient manner. As known, all heroes will assume a certain class, depending on the choice of primary skills. This, in turn will make them more proficient in the ways of money, combat, magic, and many other essentials. Choosing the most efficient skills for the map shouldn’t prove to be too difficult, unless the towns you are facing happens to be one or more of your neighbouring alignments, or to heighten the problem further, your town exactly. The possibility of this happening is quite probable, 50%, in fact. Although, many secondary skills wont be compatible with your particular hero type, but It probably would be for the better, as your hero won’t use it as proficiently as the hero who is ‘native’ to that skill.
On top of the sheer decision-making process of skills, there is also the development stage. Now, this stage has been discussed thoroughly in my previous thread, and to outline the outcome, it would be fair to say that there be 1 to 2 skills that are raised on equal proportions. As you may well know, there are five levels of skill advancements, and many have different bonuses, according to the secondary skill.
Now, would it be more economical to raise a skill through to Grand Master level, or begin another at Basic skill level? I’m inclined to think that the former would be useful at later stages in the game. Although, if you are around 1/3 through the game, you may want to start developing other ‘new’ skills, as you may not have the chance to do that when it does count later on. So, obviously there are many different factors that have great relevance in your decision throughout the game, not only in this particular aspect.
Another great factor with this game that will come into play in, probably throughout the duration of the game is the Adventure Map and its surroundings. The adventure map has become a great deal more diverse than in previous encounters with the game; there are more interactions, more challenges, and overall, more obstacles. There are ways to ‘use’ the adventure map with great efficiency, and to coincide with the possibilities it incurs on you and your opponents.
Another aspect you must take into account once you have commenced exploring uncharted territories, is the impact your nemesis’ have on the collection of resources and experience. On smaller maps, the amount of experience is limited because of this event. When the game starts to get drawn-out, there will be less and less opportunities to advance levels for your hero. This can be a problem, as many skills will remain undeveloped at levels such as ‘advanced’ or ‘expert’. Spreading experience over heroes on smaller maps won’t be as an effective move as spreading them over heroes on a larger map, as there are more chances to gain experience, and have the experience shared around. Another fairly large decision is deciding how many heroes you want to command. This number is most likely to vary according to the size of the map. I think what would be an ideal number for a ‘small’ map is around 3-6 heroes. Having more heroes will reduce the Fog of War more quickly, and also, will have the capabilities to flag certain locations, which will, again clear the Fog of War.
Artifacts and spell casting have become more available to heroes and creatures alike, and these two are often associated closely with each other, as they have similar functions. Although, these two are not to be confused, yes, they are alike in many ways, but have different purposes for heroes, and sometimes for creatures. What effect artifacts and spells will have on the overall gameplay of Heroes IV, we have yet to experience. But it isn’t too late to hypothesise, which can be helpful in understanding the game in a more relevant tone.
All the spells, organised by level, cost the same within that level. The most likely outcome this aspect points to is that spells will have almost equal effectiveness for their own town. For example, disintegrate in Chaos magic would have the same overall effect as Guardian Angel for Haven. Even though these two spells have very different effects, the gain on the whole will most likely be very similar.
Spell casting abilities will be treasured, as the system now has 5 levels, instead of the previous amount, 3. This would allow for greater development and projection, as the spells have different bonuses. A possibility is that Chain Lighting, instead of the damage being halved every time, maybe it could be reduced to ¾ every time?
There are many possibilities, and I hope this will become quite a diverse field.
The particular subject that has been known to work alongside spells are the artifacts. One minor change with this is, no artifacts have only a direct negative effect. This distinguishes them from spells, which can be quite the opposite.
Spells are another aspect of Heroes IV in which its significance has escalated. The relatively new operating system of spells means that higher level spells will be more difficult to obtain, therefore encouraging the use of artifacts that affect the spell system in some way. From the latest known facts, spells will have a set number of the cost of a spell per level. For example, all level 1 spells from all classes cost 2 spell points. This can make or break your style of gameplay, as many other steps are also associated with this. Although the cost of spells may sound small, as I’ve said before, the process of obtaining these levels is more difficult than in any previous versions. Another important element of this is that, now having 5 levels in Heroes IV, at the basic level, the spell wouldn’t have as much effect as it did on the basic level of Heroes III. The reason I believe this is there are now 5 levels, two more stages of development, therefore, 1/3 would be more effective than 1/5.
I believe spells will be used more freely in Heroes IV, dues to their increased availability and importance to Heroes and creatures alike. This will encourage the development in spells for heroes, who have taken a neutral role, assuming neither the might or magic status. Even though the might aspect of Heroes has become more direct, it has had an effect on how magic is used, one could either take one path, or become a neutral.
There is also another link in Heroes IV, which includes the selection of ones town. If one decides to choose the Asylum town, for example, that person consequently has decided their magic system, and neighbouring alignment. I believe that this is a kind of '‘hidden strategic move’ in Heroes IV, as in previous series, the choice of ones town only meant the type of creatures, structures, and heroes were available. Spells were not classed in terms of town choices, and therefore not a major decision.
I believe I have outlined the major aspects of the strategic side of Heroes IV at the present moment, and I’d like to begin on making sense of all these ‘facts’ by placing them into some context. Hence, combining them as they would be utilised in the game.
Firstly, it is apparent that different towns will be suited better to different sized maps. So this aspect can only really be chosen by what style of game you play, and what size map you decide to pick.
For example, a map with many opponents would suit the Stronghold town well, as the lack of resources on the map can be capitalised on by the low, economical price of creatures. Thus, I have chosen to use my example on a different castle, as the Stronghold doesn’t initially possess magic. Therefore, I have decided to pick the town I will utilise initially, the Asylum.
It is known that the Asylum has an expensive price of creatures, much like the Warlock of Heroes II. Weak in the mid-game, average in the beginning, and the dominators of the battlefield during the endgame, although the presence of Heroes has the capabilities to change that.
Firstly, what decision needs to be concluded regarding this town? I shall start in the order I did in this thread.
The choice of the different creatures is vital to ones style of game playing. A defensive activist would rather pick the high HP creatures, as they have less chance of being killed, as a result of more Hit Points. On the other hand, one who believes offensive ways achieve the most proficient results, would naturally choose a creature that has a high attack skill and high damage capabilities.
Myself, I would rather have a hybrid, although slightly more on the defensive side.
A side effect of this will be choosing the right combination of creatures throughout the levels. Obviously, one wont be fussed about either of the first level creatures, but from then on it steadily ascends in lines of importance and the significance of choosing. Although, due to recent developments included in Heroes IV, the overall significance of creatures has declined. Many important aspects of creatures that need to be taken into perspective when choosing, I believe, include:
A good combination of spell casters and offensive creatures
Good links to other heroes and support their magic system.
A reasonable range of special abilities, whether it be martial or mystical.
Specialising against opponents weakness
I'm sure there are many more, and those we will indefinitely come across once we play the game physically. But I believe that is the first step of putting aspects into perspective.
Although Heroes may not be as powerful or as menacing in early parts of the game, I believe they will become a formidable force once they develop and gain levels. Mind you, this won't be a short process, the bonuses and possibilities leading up to this are endless. Also, the experience one will have to accumulate to gain a level will most likely escalate every time, making it more difficult achieving a powerful status during climatic stages of the game, which often, are the most important.
So, obviously, to gain the maximum effect that heroes in this game offer, one would have to recruit one that is similar to their style of gameplaying. Also, there must be some relevance to the map one decides to compete on. These are just some very basic hints, of course, heroes extend farther than this in Heroes IV. Hero classes do come into play, as they do in fact have some significance. For example, a Pyromancer, an Asylum might hero would have basic Scouting, and basic Stealth to begin with, and a bonus of a Fire Shield which inflicts damage on any who attempt a melee attack.
Therefore, the certain hero classes will play certain roles, whether it be in battle, or on the adventure map. Although, the exact information of Hero Classes is still to be known, but we can take a pretty good guess on what outcome is going to occur.
These are just my views on the two main aspects of building a formidable empire.
I believe some members may state that it is too early to be conferring about the strategies of Heroes IV, although I'd like to think otherwise.
I have created this thread at this particular time because I hope to have the discussion running when people are fortunate enough to buy Heroes IV in approximately 6 days. In other words, overlapping the release date, as some early people may possess the game.
So, evidently, the first few days will be speculation, then we may be able to test our theories here. It is not vital to read the whole thread, just post your strategies for the game here.
Thankyou for your time, and for reading this inconceivably long thread, hopefully some members will have an opinion. 
~Revived~
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted March 26, 2002 09:06 AM |
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The best strategy may very well be to forget what we know and with that all our prejudice on how the game will play. What is playable in theory may be unplayable in practise.
"I believe it is no longer adequate to pick your favourite town for a map."
It probably is. The only thing which can ruin it for you is terrain penalties. Logistics will probably be far more important than the creatures, which have very similar offerings for all the towns.
I'd tend to disagree on the part that creatures are unbalanced unless there's been big changes in stats. Each town produce nearly the same amount of XP worth of creatures each week.
Resource costs are also nearly the same for all the towns. The only thing which differs is the type of resources asked for. So you're right in the sense that it matters whether the mapmaker has placed an additional gem pond or an additional crystal cavern close to your map. If however, the mapmaker has placed one of each type then it matters to a lesser extent.
The thinking in conjunction with Black Dragons lies before you build the dwelling, not before you recruit the creature. Buying a dragon is an easy choice once you have the building. Since the Dragon is twice as powerful as the creatures that are produced 2 per week it's only fair that it costs twice as much.
"As an example, you can recruit a Hydra for half the price, and get two of them per week. The first week gain may not seem like much, 100 HP and a higher attack and defence skill"
I don't think you can add the numbers up like this. There's not that much difference between 1 BD facing 2 Hydra and 10 BD facing 20 Hydra.
"Although, many secondary skills wont be compatible with your particular hero type, but It probably would be for the better, as your hero won?t use it as proficiently as the hero who is ?native? to that skill."
All skills are compatible with all hero types. You get promotions based on the skills you have. The new skill you are offered also depends on the skills you have. The only thing which restrict you is that you will not be offered certain skills as new skills, so if you want them you have to learn them at a university or witch hut.
"Another great factor with this game that will come into play in, probably throughout the duration of the game is the Adventure Map and its surroundings. The adventure map has become a great deal more diverse than in previous encounters with the game; there are more interactions, more challenges, and overall, more obstacles."
Do we really know this? More objects does not mean more diversity automatically.
"Spreading experience over heroes on smaller maps won?t be as an effective move as spreading them over heroes on a larger map,"
Actually this depends on how many learning stones and trees of knowledge there are and how these relate to XP available.
You don't need a Hero in an army to dispel fog of war, and in fact a fourth level creature will often do a better job than a hero. (For heroes to be better GM Scouting is needed.) The same probably applies for flagging locations. Any army can do it.
"Artifacts and spell casting have become more available to heroes and creatures alike, and these two are often associated closely with each other, as they have similar functions."
The latest I heard artifacts were not usable by creatures, only heroes. Creatures are restricted to the spells they have and cannot learn new ones.
I'll comment on spells and onwards later... as this post is just too long to reply to in one go.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Batvanio
Adventuring Hero
Archimage
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posted March 26, 2002 10:43 AM |
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What are you talking about?
You are like university professors - theorize over a problem in debt without even the taste of the practice.
I admit that I have played the beta demo of HOMM4 already and I assure you that there are different problems for solving.
For example the grafix is awful - I hope this would be corrected in the release but I doubt it.
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...and give my best regards to your family
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 27, 2002 01:31 AM |
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Strategies....
Regarding your first comment, Djive...
Yes, of course that it is unplayable in theory, because the key word there, is theory. Although, many people would realise that we have never actually experienced playing this game prior to this moment. Thus, we do not know anything concerning the actual 'practise' of the game.
Also, the reason why I inserted such comments as
'In other words, overlapping the release date, as some early people may possess the game.'
Hence, one may discuss theories here, and then practise them when the opportunity arises in the near future. So, really, I hope to combine the two.
"It probably is."
You have a point on the 'easy' maps. Because of the great diversity and complications as such of this game, I would think that one still couldn't chose their favourite town on a campaign or a 'hard' or 'impossible' difficulty map.
The reasons for this are ones you have just mentioned; terrain penalties, and other aspects to do with logistics, and the manner in which heroes and creatures move around the map.
"I'd tend to disagree on the part that creatures are unbalanced unless there's been big changes in stats."
Obviously, the Black Dragon is the strongest 'statswise'. Although, if one decides to look at the growth aspect of this, one can make the inference that Stronghold creatures have much more economical creatures. Meaning that a Behemoth costs only 2,750 + a resource, for 55-80 damage, 240 HP, and great specialties. Then, compare this to a Devil, for instance. 4,000 + 2 sulphur, 34-50 damage, and 210 HP. Once looking at these facts, one may realise that the Stronghold may not have the strongest creatures, but the best economy and 'bang for buck'. Although, the downfall of the Stronghold is no availability in terms of initial magic. The Stronghold must use techniques native to other towns.
"There's not that much difference between 1 BD facing 2 Hydra and 10 BD facing 20 Hydra."
Actually, there probably is a significant difference when one decides to calculate the facts.
Hydra: 20 X 250 = 5,000 HP Damage: 44 X 20 = 880
Black Dragon: 10 X 400 = 4,000 HP Damage: 82 X 10 = 820
According to these statistics, Hydras are more economically sound than the 'all powerful' Black Dragon. This probably applies to all the superior and inferior creatures in all towns.
"All skills are compatible with all hero types."
Yes, you are right there, that previous comment was likened to a theory. Obviously a hero isn't going to be able to learn all of the skills in one game. Therefore, not having the options available.
"Do we really know this? More objects does not mean more diversity automatically."
Is there any reason not to think in this manner? I believe the general equation would be equal to that of moreobjects=morediversity. Although this is just a generalisation, but probably a safe one.
An example of this is that there are more levels to skills, two in fact, and this has made it more difficult for heroes to progress through the levels.
"Actually this depends on how many learning stones and trees of knowledge there are and how these relate to XP available."
Really? I would have thought that these events as such would have contributed to just a small portion of the experience gained throughout the map. The more important factor I believe is the amount of battles and sieges one would have to face. It is obvious that, as the game progresses, the amount of experience one recieves also escalates. So does the experience required, unfortunately. So, as we've found in previous occasions, the learning stone gives a certain amount of experience; 1,000 (1050 with Merist). This figure always stays the same, which means it will have a lesser effect in the latter stages of the game.
"You don't need a Hero in an army to dispel fog of war, and in fact a fourth level creature will often do a better job than a hero."
Yes, that is a universally known fact. A castle on heightened terrain is an excellent eradicator of the Fog of War. All flagged locations, which now include the Water wheels and other locations similar, will all have the Fog of War diminish.
"I'll comment on spells and onwards later... as this post is just too long to reply to in one go."
Commendable, Djive, I think that may be a worthwhile trend following.
"For example the grafix is awful"
And I assure you, Batvanio, that this 'problem' cannot be resolved. So, rather than wasting time on saying certain creatures look bad, and the 'grafix' are awful, comment on aspects of the game that are good and can be changed.
Please post your strategies here.  So far I haven't seen much posting, but may views.
Thanks.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 27, 2002 05:49 AM |
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When comparing BD to hydra,you tend to forget you need to deal a whole lot more dmg to even kill one BD,kill one isn't an easy task since BD has 40def and only the behemoths come close to 40atk(36).
While BD isn't much more stronger than other lvl4,the difference is so much bigger versus most lvl3 and under.
Dmg and hp's aren't the only stats,atk/def need to be considered.
Dmg of the hydras would be reduced by 25%(30/40) if attacking BD's,while BD's would deal 150%(40/26) dmg on hydras.(compared to the "stat dmg" of both.
880dmg X .75=660
820dmg X 1.5=1230
10BD's would kill close to 5 hydras in one attack.Hydras would kill 1BD.I don't want to do the maths but it would be a VERY close match.
Now compare a creature with 20atk attacking any of these 2.Dmg would be reduced by 1/3 versus hydras and dmg would be reduced by 1/2 attacking BD's.You need more dmg to kill one BD than 2 hydras.750dmg versus 800 in favor of BD's.
Hydras are the "best buy"? Not sure about this.I'm not saying it's not true,but i'm not sure it's right either.They both have good abilities.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 29, 2002 02:35 AM |
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Strategies: Creatures and Heroes
Possibly to extend this thread further, (With what I had previusly hoped to happen) some of the members who actually own Heroes of Might and Magic IV at present can share their opinions on how they've gone about playing the game. I'm sure we're eager to listen to their strategies and how they differ to the previous series.
Now, directly back on topic:
"When comparing BD to hydra,you tend to forget you need to deal a whole lot more dmg to even kill one BD,kill one isn't an easy task since BD has 40def and only the behemoths come close to 40atk(36)."
Of course there are more criterea needed to judge these two creatures. The objective I was aiming for when I posted the statistics was that Black Dragons are not unbeatable, and it is even possible for other creatures to beat it when looking at growth rates.
Another aspect to this is that when one has 2 Hydras, and 1 Black Dragon, the defense and attack statistics stay as they are, therefore, giving an advantage to the statistically stronger creature.
"Dmg of the hydras would be reduced by 25%(30/40) if attacking BD's,while BD's would deal 150%(40/26) dmg on hydras.(compared to the "stat dmg" of both.
Yes, you have a point there, although, there are infact 2 Hydras, and 1 Black Dragon, if one decides to take it from growth realities. Yes, the Black Dragon will still deal 150% damage, but the Hydra would deal 25% less of double its damage. which would equal only slightly less than the Black Dragons damage dealt.
"10BD's would kill close to 5 hydras in one attack.Hydras would kill 1BD."
OK. Then let's say that there Hydras get the first strike, it is a possibility after all. Hydras deal around 800 damage, killing 2 Black Dragons. They do not retaliate.
Black Dragons deal 984 damage, killing nearly 4 Hydras.
16 Hydras retaliate, and deal 530 damage or thereabouts, only killing 1 Black Dragon, and leaving the other with around 200 HP left.
16 Hydras, 7 Black Dragons.
Hydras turn, they inflict another 530 damage, killing one, and leaving the other with 170 HP.
Black Dragons deal 738 Hydras, killing 3, and leaving the other with around 100 HP.
Hydras reatliate with 429 damage, killing one, leaving the other with around 140 HP.
Of course, this is theorizing, and may not actually prevail, since there are many aspects of battle that contribute to the outcome of the battle.
Once again, it is the Hydras turn to attack, another 429 damage, which again, defeats one, and leaves the other with approximately 110 HP.
There are now 13 Hydras and 4 Black Dragons.
Black Dragons inflict 492 damage to the Hydras, killing another 2, and leaving the other with approximately 50 HP.
Hydras reatliate with the potency of 363 damage, killing one, and leaving the other with 150 HP.
Once again, the no-retaliation bonus comes in handy. Hydras once again have the chance to attack, and dealing another 363 damage, killing another, and leaving the second to last Black Dragon with 190 HP.
2 Black Dragons deal 246 damage, killing one Hydra, and the remaining Hydra is left with 56 HP.
Hydras retaliate, inflicting 330 damage, defeating one Black Dragon, and leaving the sole remaining one with 260 HP.
And, finally, the Hydras prevail, defeating the last Black Dragon, with 10 Hydras still left.
Then, we are back where we started, only 10 of both creatures have been defeated.
Possibly, if the Black Dragon was the first to attack, it would have been closer, as you said, Thorman, but it seems the Hydras won comfortably here.
Now, onto other Strategic aspects of the game, such as spells.
With the added bonus of a fair amount of creatures using spells to defeat their opponents, the usage of spells is probably set to increase. The creatures compatibility with spells are having impending effects on heroes, as they are no longer required to cast a 'saving' spell, although the option is there if needed.
Spell costs are alarmingly low compared to other series, leaving the options open to heroes. They can learn different schools of magic, which are associated more closesly with the town itself.
This is porbably an underestimated change in terms of the relevance to the game and combat. I believe this is quite a large change, especially acquiring a totally different spell system. This means that not only skills and creatures oppose each other directly, but also spells.
Another great change in conjunction to spells are the neighbouring alignments, which are closely linked with the original town. This provides a sense of diversity and opportunity, as having just one primary system would probably not be the most effective way of porgressing through the game.
Please, people who have played the game, share your comments.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted March 29, 2002 03:51 AM |
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from thery to praxis
Greetings
On the Black Dragon vs Hydra topic.
I can see that you have not calculated in that now striking are simultanius.
The weakness of the exsample is that a flying faster creature against a no retaliation, would wait, fly in for a hit, next round it would fly and cover behind an obstacle. So the hydra would never get to use it's no retaliation attack, unless the new moral hits in (giving it turn first).
(My peronal Idea about the wait option, is that using wait should be initiative and/or move penalised in the next round!)
hydra wrote:
""With the added bonus of a fair amount of creatures using spells to defeat their opponents, the usage of spells is probably set to increase. The creatures compatibility with spells are having impending effects on heroes, as they are no longer required to cast a 'saving' spell, although the option is there if needed.
Spell costs are alarmingly low compared to other series, leaving the options open to heroes. They can learn different schools of magic, which are associated more closesly with the town itself. ""
First the creatures spells looks quite balanced.
The magic fist of the mages is dealing direct shooting damage there is not retailiated, so if the mage cast blur first increasing its ranged defense to be able to stand agaist a shooter stack, the counter is to move the shooter in short distance, increasing the damage!
Spellcost might be low , but a magic user does struggle to keep alive!! They can't just learn different kind of magic!
Magic needs levels to be effective! You need to get it offered ! Thats can be a problem in it self. Might heroes gets 3 skill to choisse from , Magic ones 2.
Next the most important thing for heroes to do in the first weeks is to flag buildings (creatures can't do that). In general there is to few heroes , and the ones there is you want to get the best out off!
And some heroes does not contribute to that projekt. The nobility line is just asking for having a blind passenger in your army (though he can pay for the ticket)!
Magic heroes have the problem that the moment they raise a level in there primery magic skill, they want to get back to town to learn the new spells!
So you either slow down you exploration, or continue it with out the mage ( who then miss the exp until he gets back, further delayed by having to flag what the troops setup for him). Or keeps him with army waiting to have a chance to get back to town.
But without his higgest potential level spells , the mage does not contribute his full value to an army.
( a bug is that a retreating hero , is immidiatly availeble in its hometown, it should be using the caravan! But Retreat is now a way to get a magic hero home to learn spells , giving him only half the distance to travel!)
Might heroes skills does contribute to get a hold on territory in the early part!
I might be wrong , but magic heroes does looks like asking for a slow start, as opposed to homm3 where as might heroes had the slow start!
hydra wrote:
""Another great change in conjunction to spells are the neighbouring alignments, which are closely linked with the original town. This provides a sense of diversity and opportunity, as having just one primary system would probably not be the most effective way of porgressing through the game. ""
I am not sure that I agree with last statement. First off all there is so many skills you want in the longrun! And and GM magic user is stronger than a jack of the trade!
( but the real problem is that you don't have that many choises- its walking the path shown! one skill or the other pest or cholera ). Yes an opponen't could counter with wards most of the impact a spelluser have, but before getting to that stage in the game a consentraded building path would have given more territory, more won battles against neutral stacks and so on, than doing 2 differnt magic paths ! Remember all the combat skill there is good to have too! And if not having hero number 2 in the army alot of the tactics and scouting skills would be usefull to! SO the diversity would more likely come from letting another hero develop another magic path, and later in the game letting them join forces!
A note to hydra: strategy is difficult to discuss before the game mecanic is learned and experienced. Simple things like needing heroes to flag buildings and mines does determinate the use of the few heroes we are limitted to have the first month, but such thing have to be discovered and the impact experienced, before applied logic reveals "the good strategy!"
with regards
Jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted March 29, 2002 07:34 AM |
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Hydras twins I have a headache all the writing lool just lool
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Batvanio
Adventuring Hero
Archimage
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posted March 29, 2002 12:23 PM |
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OK,
I've managed to get the original game yesterday.
Now about the grafix: - animation is not so good and compared to Disciples it is not good at all. But then I opened the editor and - what a beauty - the trees are amazing, there are also animated gaysers and etc. So the scenery is good.
Just the faces and icons of the units are ugly and not detailed. And also the movement of some combat units is not detailed. For example the centaurs move like robots.
But when I played a few hours I started to not pay attention to the grafix. THE GAMPLAY IS AS ADDICTIVE AS HOMM3 AND ALMOST THE SAME AS HOMM2!
Now to be true to the topic of this thread I must say a strategy: ranged units are much better then the nonranged.
So I build ranged units when there is a choice for upgrade.
____________
...and give my best regards to your family
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 30, 2002 07:52 AM |
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Strateiges: Theory (Still) :(
The reason for the (Still) in the title is because the Heroes IV release date is at the earliest, the 10th of April, and latest, 30th of April. Of course, these are only the Australian release dates.
Back on topic:
"I can see that you have not calculated in that now striking are simultanius."
Well, obviously I wasn't exactly sure about this addition to the battle scene, and therefore not able to put it into perspective. This is one difficulty of theorizing. It is almost impossible to visual an aspect that you are not sure about.
In spite of the new evidence, I still believe that the Hydras have the capabilities to defeat the Black Dragons in that instance, but of course, the battle will appear to be much closer.
This will also mean that Hydras only do half the damage they did previously at most, therefore it may come down to a 2 on 1, and that would be interesting to practice.
Yes, the battle will be relatively close, although there are many variables in Heroes IV that could make or break the outcome. Some of these include the morale, the terrain, and the first attacker are just to identify a few.
Also, in the context of a campaign or single scenario, there would be a small possibility of having a one on one with the participants being Hydras and Black Dragons. Therefore, in a battle situation, Hydras are able to attack all hexes around them, giving them the advantage if there are 5 Black Dragons spread out, and 10 Hydras contained in one single stack.
So, possibly to shed more light on this matter, one of the few members in the community that actually possess this game could administer a series of simple test similar to this one. They may also find out the most economical and least economical. Of course, if they're not busy completing the campaigns.
"Spellcost might be low , but a magic user does struggle to keep alive!!"
Yes, although, this may just a style of gameplay, as one can't make a generalisation using one source of information.
There is also more to this aspect of gameplay; I believe the reason for the low spellcost is because of the great length of time and development it takes to reach GrandMaster, or even Master level. The skills are not just divided into 3 sections, they're divided into 5, making it more difficult to progress through the levels, and hence the low spellcost. An example of this is that level 5 spells all cost 12 mana. (Or was it 15?)
Nevertheless, this is a great change from Heroes I, II, III, as the usual maximum was 30 mana.
"Next the most important thing for heroes to do in the first weeks is to flag buildings"
Probably the most important reason for this is that it removes the Fog of War significantly if one possesses 5 or more mines, windmills, waterwheels, etcetera. All of these structures reduce the Fog of War, although I'm not sure if they all have the same proficiency in doing so.
"but magic heroes does looks like asking for a slow start, as opposed to homm3 where as might heroes had the slow start!"
The most porbable reasoning for this is that in Heroes IV, heroes are obviously involved directly in gameplay and battles. Therefore, encouraging a more might orientated hero. This is an important change, as in Heroes III, heroes were more magically orientated, as their might was only indirectly used on the creatures.
"And and GM magic user is stronger than a jack of the trade!"
Hmmm. Yes, I would porbably agree with you on that statement if one decided to go to extremes and having a myriad of skills, but all being in the basic or advanced levels. Then, yes, 3 skills with GrandMaster proficiency will be much more effective.
Although, developing about 4 or 6 skills towards master will probably be more effective, as there is diversity, and channeling the worthwhile points from neighbouring alignments. Thus, extracting the best from the alignments, but not all of the spells & skills they have to offer.
"SO the diversity would more likely come from letting another hero develop another magic path, and later in the game letting them join forces!"
Yes, although that one super army cannot be everywhere at once, so, if in the occurance of a Slugfest, they will again have to split. As I see it, I would rather develop predominantly the might or magic side of the hero, then slightly progress the remaining half of the hero, so then the hero won't become the jack-of-all-trades, but the hero will survive and have good enough balance to continue in a satisfactory manner.
"strategy is difficult to discuss before the game mecanic is learned and experienced."
Well it appears to me that we have a perfectly good conversation at the present moment, as we can test the theories with those who possess the game like yourself.
Thankyou for your replies; keep them coming!
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Krishhh
Adventuring Hero
still learning spells
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posted March 30, 2002 11:43 AM |
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In theory too:
It wouldn`t be a closer battle with same time retaliation.
In yourcalculation it was like this:
20 hydras attack and kill x dragons.
10-x dragons attack and kill y hydras.
20-y hydras retaliate and kill x-1 dragons.
2.round(the next round really starts after the first hydra attack)
20-y hydras attack and kill x -1 dragons.
10-3x+2 dragons attack...
How it is:
20 hydras attack and kill x dragons.
10-x dragons attack and kill y hydras
20 hydras attack and kill another x dragons
2.round(the next round really starts after the first hydra attack)
20-y hydras attack and kill x-1 dragons
10-3x+1 dragons attack
Since hydra has no retaliation only the hydras get any bonus from the same time retaliation so with it 20 hydras would crush 10 BD even more, of course if your caculations about damage are correct.
____________
Promising student of magic.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted March 30, 2002 11:55 AM |
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Quote:
In theory too:
How it is:
20 hydras attack and kill x dragons.
10-x dragons attack and kill y hydras
20 hydras attack and kill another x dragons
2.round(the next round really starts after the first hydra attack)
Ehm.. since the dragons have 15 movement and are faster than hydras.. I have to ask you how the hydras can attack first? I find that pretty weird, on the other hand I dinf this entire thread alittle weird.
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I am the hope of the universe... I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace... I am protector of the innocent... I am the light in the darkness... I am truth.
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Krishhh
Adventuring Hero
still learning spells
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posted March 30, 2002 12:13 PM |
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it`s written there: (the next round really starts after the first hydra attack. It attacks first because in the previous simulated battle it did too. And it attacks first becase the black dragon moves across most most of the battlefield in his turn and then hydra reaches him in her turn and attacks him.
____________
Promising student of magic.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted March 30, 2002 01:54 PM |
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Quote:
it`s written there: (the next round really starts after the first hydra attack. It attacks first because in the previous simulated battle it did too. And it attacks first becase the black dragon moves across most most of the battlefield in his turn and then hydra reaches him in her turn and attacks him.
Well if the black dragon is smart enough to use all its movement to give the hydra a great chance to attack him, even though he could theoretically go just long enough to strike first next round, then the hydra is probably smart enough to just defend on every turn or maybe even run away.
Things like this just make me wanna say stuff that would give me a penalty, so I´ll settle for this: "Thats the most stupid thing Í´ve ever heard u freakin nooob!!!! "
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 31, 2002 04:42 AM |
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Moving on...
For some of us who possess game, it may seem that there are different ways of completing tasks in the game. But, I am not one of those people, so I am trying to figure out the best possible way of emerging victorious, by conversing to people who do own the game.
It is obvious that the debate between Krishhh and Bjorn190 has got a bit out of hand, so just to relieve that, I think it is time to talk about another aspect of Strategies: The towns.
OK. After reading all of the threads on the first and second pages, I can see that there are mixed opinions upon what town is the 'best' so to speak. Among the thoughts have been Asylum, Academy, and Preserve. (These comments made by the respective followers)
I'll try my best to make an assumption, for not necessarily the best, but possibly the one I would use when playing the game, hopefully others will make some other comments on their town of choice in terms of strategies.
Asylum:
Obviously this town follows the patterns on which the old Warlock castle operated on in Heroes II. Meaning strong creatures, high costs, and porficient magic users.
The two main classes are Warlock and thief, which begin with:
Warlock: Basic Conjuration, Basic Chaos Magic
Thief: Basic Scouting, Basic Stealth
So, with this information, I would be lead to believe that Thiefs will do well removing the Fog of War, and Warlock are clearly a magic orientated hero.
The grail structure is OK, it porduces 3,000 gold per day, and the effectiveness of Chaos magic spells rises by 50%. This is another affirmation that the Asylum is Magically based.
Although that's not all there is to it, the creatures are strong, but expensive. The Black Dragon costs 8,000 gold and 4 sulphur, while the Hydra, a secondary creature costs 4,000 gold and 2 mercury.
The Asylum is the only town in which its secondary level 4 creature is practically equal strength to that of a primary creature in other towns.
The structures are quite expensive, both level 4's cost 14,000 gold.
My initial strategy:
Explore the land as quick as the game allows me to. If I didn't decide to execute this bonus, it would be a great waste.
In terms of the magic hero, develop it quickly, letting the Sorcerer gain experience and the thief explore. It is vital if that one decides to use a magic hero, it must be developed with haste, or it may succumb to the might of their namesake.
Academy:
Now for the contender towards the Asylum, as it always has been, the old Wizard town from Heroes II, the Academy.
This town is quite similar to the Asylum as that it excells in magic fields. Although they are different. The Academy has many magic enhancements, such as Libraries, not only for its own alignment, but for neighbouring ones, too.
The first level structures are expensive, costing 1,500 gold each. The dwarves are a good asset, although slow, and the halflings seem a little weak. I believe that the academy have the best lineup of level 2 creatures, a large, sturdy gold golem, possessing 50 HP, and a HP lacking mage, which is a spellcaster. It is unfortunate one cannot choose both for this level.
The fourth level of this town is well balanced, a walker, and a powerful ranged attacker, both of equal strength, having 220 and 210 HP respectively. Although I do believe that the Titan will be preferred because of the advantage ranged attackers have in this game.
The specialty buildings this town possesses have much concerning the magical spectrum. Although the bonus of the University in the town itself is a great bonus, as I've found them very effective in previous series.
Obviously, the Grail in this town is more effective regarding gameplay than the Asylums. It produces 3,000 gold per day, raises the effectiveness of Order magic by 50%, but also, other alignments gain many more spells, and the Heroes mana increases by 25%.
My initial strategies:
The Academy will be one of the most utilised town among the magic users. In my opinion, the opposite of the Stronghold town.
The heroes, which have:
Lord: Basic Nobility and Basic Estates
Mages: Basic Order Magic and Basic Enchantment
Are very useful, especially the Lords, since they possess the Nobility skill, which gives you more creatures to recruit from that town. This combined with Estates can be useful in the long-run, as the Academy is generally espensive.
Yes, this town is a true challenger of the Asylum, and is very able magically. They also have a good combination of might.
My Conclusion:
Even thought I haven't even experienced the gameplay yet, I believe that these two castles will be relatively evenly matched in terms of magic and creatures.
Although there are still small distinctions between them, such as Asylum lack a truly powerful ranged attacker, and Academy lack strength in level 1 and 3, and also have a shortage of special abilities. Yes, there are more criterea to measure these assumptions on, I believe this may be OK for theorizing.
Look forward to reading your opinions.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted June 23, 2002 01:08 AM |
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Revived!@
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted June 25, 2002 04:54 PM |
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I believe the reason different people think different towns are more powerfull is because they play a different type of game. The best players would be those who can play every town to its maximum potential.
Of course, I am not one of those, in H3 I did manage to get to the point where I did not groan too much if I got a particular town in random town games.
Not that I dislike seeing posts on what town is best, the more arguement there is, the more balanced it seems to me. There is also the fact that often I can learn hints for playing towns better by reading the reasons that XXX town is the best.
Oh, and thanks Hexa for reviving some of these threads. Now I can kill them again
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted June 25, 2002 05:53 PM |
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"Oh, and thanks Hexa for reviving some of these threads. Now I can kill them again"
Somone has a morbid sense of humor...
Regardless, I'm going to settle the Black Dragon-Hydra battle here. I have the game, and I've prepared a special map for testing this. The battle takes place on Dirt, so that there aren't any iffy bonuses going on because of swamp.
The 20 Hydras go first, with good morale(this is just what happened). They walk towards the 10BD's. The Black Dragons fly to the 10 Hydras and attack. Hydras retaliate. We now have 8 Black Dragons, and 15 Hydras.
The Black Dragons, for some weird reason, get to go again, I'm thinking this has something to do with the morale the Hydras had. This takes us down to 7 Black Dragons and 11 Hydras.
Then, something weird happened. I wasn't able to keep track, but kept on going through and playing. Eventually, there were 4 Black Dragons and 5 Hydras, then 3 and 4, and then 3 and 3. Then there were 3 Black Dragons, 2 Hydras. 3 Black Dragons, 1 Hydra. Then, the Black Dragons defeated the Hydras.
I tried this battle again, over and over. It turns out, 2 out of five times the Black Dragons beat the Hydras. I also discovered that normally the Black Dragons go first. If they wait, and then the Hydras move, and then the Black Dragons go, they go twice. This evens it out to 9 Black Dragons and 11 Hydras.
Then, I forget what happens exactly, but the Black Dragons now have 7, and the Hydras have 6! Hydras go. Black Dragons go. 6 Black Dragons, 3 Hydras.
Hydras go. Black Dragons go. 6 Black Dragons, no Hydras.
* * *
Okay. I'm trying again now, to see exactly how the Black Dragons win. 10 Black Dragons, 20 Hydras. Black Dragons' turn, they wait. Hydras move. Black Dragons fly and attack them. 9 Black Dragons with 182 HP. 15 Hydras with 242 HP. Black Dragons get to go again because they waited.
Black Dragons attack. Hydras don't retaliate, because they already have this round. We now have 9 Black Dragons with 182 HP, and 11 Hydras with 153 HP. Hydras' turn.
Hydras attack, Black Dragons don't retaliate. We now have 8 Black Dragons with 237 HP, and 11 Hydras with 153 HP. Black Dragons' turn.
Black Dragons attack, Hydras retaliate. We now have 7 Black Dragons with 230 HP for the top one, and 7 Hydras with 95 HP for the top one. Hydras' turn.
Hydras attack. Black Dragons don't retaliate. 7 Hydras with 95 HP, 6 Black Dragons with 354 HP. Black Dragons' turn.
Black Dragons attack, Hydras retaliate. We now have 6 Black Dragons with 126 HP, and 4 with 199 HP. Hydras' turn.
Hydras attack. We now have 4 Hydras with 199 HP, and still have 6 Black Dragons with 18 HP.
Black Dragons attack, and Hydras retaliate. We now have 5 Black Dragons with 295 HP, and only 1 Hydra with 63 HP! Hydra's turn.
The Hydra attacks, and the Black Dragons don't retaliate. 5 Black Dragons with 264 HP. Black Dragons' turn.
*drumroll*
The 5 Black Dragons attack the 1 Hydra. The Hydra retaliates, and dies. The Black Dragons win, with 5 Black Dragons left! Amazing! None of us ever thought of factoring in Waiting!
Now, here's a little update. I tried having the Black Dragons wait, and then having the Hydras wait. The Hydras got another turn after that, and chose "Defend." The Black Dragons then got their second turn from waiting, and flew at the Hydras, attacking them. The fact that the Hydras defended didn't matter. The Black Dragons still beat them.
Plus, some may say that this is just a very close outcome and proves nothing. True, it is very unlikely that 10 Black Dragons and 20 Hydras will meet on a neutral terrain type. However, you are much more likely to lose a few Hydras in some random battle than you are to lose a few Black Dragons. I rest my case.
The Black Dragon is a better choice than the Hydra.
____________
<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted June 25, 2002 07:46 PM |
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If the ai had 10 black dragons, it would have a group of 4 and 2 groups of 3. Now refight the battle using hydras. See what the minimum amount of hydras you would need to defeat the dragons configured this way. The way you are fighting it totally discounts the hydra's special ability.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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raZor_X
Promising
Known Hero
The mysterious Warlock
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posted June 25, 2002 09:11 PM |
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Agree
Yes, Oldtimer has a very good point there . I would lie to add that because dragons are imune to all maging it has its drawbacks also. You cannot cast any beneficial spells on them at all while on the other hnad you can boost hydras with different kind of magic. Have you ever tried CAT REFLEXES magic on them? Attacking twice with no retaliations is devastating. I always pick them over dragons except in specific circumstances, like playing against Preserve and when I know that the opponent built Fairy Dragons, then the blackies are a better choice than hydras...
raZor_X
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 Ask and learn...
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