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| Thread: Endangered Species rights vs human rights |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
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posted June 21, 2013 03:06 PM |
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Not true. You can restore the endangered animal to its natural habitat, allow it to reproduce well by protecting it/its habitat, and it will gradually get reintroduced to the ecosystem and have as much impact as it had, say, 100 years ago.
On the other hand, if you keep killing everything that is a nuisance to farmers, you can't even reintroduce stuff anymore because it's all dead.
People who are killing endangered animals impose their will on others too, by the way 
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Elodin
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posted June 21, 2013 03:32 PM |
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People who are killing endangered animals impose their will on others too, by the way
That is exactly the reverse of the situation. It is natural for a person to defend himself and his property against anyone/anything that would do it harm.
If you tell a farmer, "Nah, you're just going to have to go bankrupt because I'm not going to allow you to defend yourself" you are imposing your will on the farmer.
If the government does not want the farmer to harm the creatures that are harming him the government is the one that has the responsibility to stop the creatures from causing harm.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2013 04:04 PM |
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Killing animals isn't and will never be the best way to "defend yourself". It's the best way for extinction of many species, but not for "defending" from more animals in the future. There's no excuse for killing, even the government's "laziness" won't be any excuse, because there is always another way to protect yourself, starting with a basic fence set around your house.
What is better: killing every wolf near your house because you think it's trying to attack your livestock (and wasting ammo for this actually), or just setting up some fence or wall (once and for a long time) and make these wolves - and, eventually, thieves - come to your estate?
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted June 21, 2013 07:49 PM |
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Actually this is what happens in France: specie is protected and in case of farmers complaints, the state pays what was broken (well, state = we all through taxes but the amount is minimal when divided by 60 millions). This way, everybody is happy, mommy wolf too. Of course, here is planet Earth, not U.S., so farmers having guns is out of question, dogs do the job, as it should.
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mvassilev
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posted June 21, 2013 08:01 PM |
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DF:
If an individual of an endangered species wandering onto farmers' property is enough to threaten the species's survival, the species probably doesn't have much of an ecosystem left anyway.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2013 08:08 PM |
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Well, in that case every specie that can't use guns (and therefore can't kill everything that's wandering on its property) is pretty much worthless. 
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Doomforge
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posted June 22, 2013 10:24 PM |
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Bah, let's kill all animals, who needs them anyway. There ain't much place in the ecosystem left for them anyway and they are just trespassing on OUR land.
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That is exactly the reverse of the situation. It is natural for a person to defend himself and his property against anyone/anything that would do it harm.
Funny. I bet you people would gun down tornadoes if you had a chance.
And by the way, would you kill a grizzly bear if one became interested in you (in a bad way), or would you use a can of bear spray?
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Elodin
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posted June 22, 2013 11:50 PM |
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Funny. I bet you people would gun down tornadoes if you had a chance.
No, I lasso tornadoes and ride 'em down.
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And by the way, would you kill a grizzly bear if one became interested in you (in a bad way), or would you use a can of bear spray?
12 gauge shotgun loaded with a slug unless I WANTED to get up close and personal, then I'd have it loaded with 00 buckshot. Bear spray might or might not work if the bear is in blood rage mode.
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Doomforge
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posted June 23, 2013 10:20 AM |
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Yup, just as I thought
You really don't respect life as it is, don't you? Taking it is nothing to you, human, animal, whatever. That mentality is completely alien to me, in all honesty. Just don't go all "rather it/him than me", it's not the situation - it's the mentality. You just don't seem to care. No regrets.
If I were forced to kill ANYTHING other than a mosquito, I would probably face a severe trauma afterwards. The difference in mentality is massive. Explains why we can't understand each other.
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fred79
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posted June 23, 2013 11:42 AM |
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I have a point to make, in regards to the people saying, "We are the greatest animals on earth, we can kill whatever we want, as long as it is in OUR way, and/or threatening OUR lifestyle".
Have you ever considered that maybe serial killers, mass murderers, and people who just don't like other people, or seeing them as inferior, might think that way about OTHER HUMAN BEINGS?
According to all of the people spouting that it is OK to kill animals because they are either:
a. a pest.
b. threatening your, or others, way of life.
c. because the human race is greater than them.
d. because it is the natural order of "survival of the fittest",
Then, one could be led to believe that, when you say these things, you are AGREEING with "serial killers, mass murderers, and people who just don't like other people, or seeing them as inferior".
Now, I think it is funny to hear this, coming from some of you, who proclaim yourselves to be pious in nature, or who think you are morally right in the things you say.
You can't have your cake, and eat it too, people.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted June 23, 2013 02:29 PM |
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I with you man. Once I learned to shoot, my first buck (6-points) was my last; I may as well have shot Bambi after the way I felt.
However the deer do have to be harvested,(by someone) without a predator, they cause enormous health problems; i.e. transmitters of Lyme disease.
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mvassilev
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posted June 23, 2013 07:16 PM |
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fred:
Quote:
I have a point to make, in regards to the people saying, "We are the greatest animals on earth, we can kill whatever we want, as long as it is in OUR way, and/or threatening OUR lifestyle".
It has nothing to do with "we're the greatest animal on Earth". It's about self-interest. If wiping out humanity was in a cat's self-interest, and it had the capability to do so, it would be fine for it to try. One of the many differences between farmers defending their property and serial killers is that serial killers are mistaken about what their interests are.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 23, 2013 07:24 PM |
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Mvass, I sincerely think you are as wrong as the serial killer about where humanity's self interest lies in. Keep in mind, most sociopaths are much smarter than a regular farmer.
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Elodin
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posted June 23, 2013 07:55 PM |
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Yup, just as I thought
You really don't respect life as it is, don't you? Taking it is nothing to you, human, animal, whatever. That mentality is completely alien to me, in all honesty. Just don't go all "rather it/him than me", it's not the situation - it's the mentality. You just don't seem to care. No regrets.
I respect all life, and especially mine.
Unlike many liberals, I don't think predators, human or otherwise, have a right to kill me or my family or that I should try to wrestle a 15 feet tall Grizzly bear to avoid shooting it.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted June 23, 2013 08:24 PM |
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As a "liberal" I don't think that you have a right to kill anything just because you think it can hurt you.
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fred79
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posted June 23, 2013 09:44 PM |
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It has nothing to do with "we're the greatest animal on Earth". It's about self-interest. If wiping out humanity was in a cat's self-interest, and it had the capability to do so, it would be fine for it to try. One of the many differences between farmers defending their property and serial killers is that serial killers are mistaken about what their interests are.
self interest, capability, whatever. you clearly did not get what i was saying. people who kill other people, for whatever reason, are justified by your argument. think of them as cats, "who have the ability to do so". because they do. anyone does, really. you are inadvertently justifying their killing nature. might as well start writing some prison fan-mail, lol.
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mvassilev
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posted June 23, 2013 09:53 PM |
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If it's truly in their self-interest, then yes, of course it's justified. But it's not in their self-interest.
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fred79
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posted June 23, 2013 09:56 PM |
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it's in their self interest, by any reason they find necessary, mvass. anything can be justified, in the human mind. thanks for clearing that up, by the way. 
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 23, 2013 10:12 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:22, 23 Jun 2013.
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Your problem is this: You think of self-interest as an absolute problem solver, the metaphysical BS shredder, the logical optimum. This level of pragmatism is no different than any other dogmatic thought, eventually it will (and right in my eyes it does) lose touch with reality and start to compare a cat's instinct with civilization. Civilization does not nullify our animal instincts, they are still there, yes, but our animal instincts does not nullify civilization either. The stance you take is so shallow, it makes me understand why people still go for the ancient religions instead of yours.
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Zenofex
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posted June 23, 2013 10:13 PM |
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One of the many differences between farmers defending their property and serial killers is that serial killers are mistaken about what their interests are.
Man, you just invented the notion "objective self-interest". Now just place it next to "wooden iron" and all will be fine.
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