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| Thread: Endangered Species rights vs human rights |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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mvassilev
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posted June 23, 2013 11:09 PM |
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artu:
What part about my point with the cat was wrong?
Zeno:
Of course there's such a thing as objective self-interest. For example, it's objectively against your self-interest to commit suicide if you're not suffering.
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artu
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posted June 23, 2013 11:26 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:30, 23 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
What part about my point with the cat was wrong?
Let me give an example by exactly staying on the topic. Say some fish is about to go extinct, so the government tells you not to fish for three months while that specie is in incubation. You still go to the lake, put your hook in the water, somebody comes up to you and says:
- It's not fishing season, if you do this in this time of the year, next year you won't be able to fish at all, they will dry out.
Your analogy of the cat is like saying:
- Does the fish feel sorry for the worm on the hook? So why should I?
Notice, I kept this just about pragmatism, even in that frame what you conclude is shallow.
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mvassilev
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posted June 23, 2013 11:54 PM |
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My self-interest argument assumes that it's in the farmer's self-interest to kill the trespassing animal. In your example, it's clearly not in the fisherman's self-interest to kill the fish, as it means no fish next year. My original point was in response to fred's suggestion that we shouldn't just say "we can kill whatever we want". If we restrain ourselves from killing wild animals, it is not out of regard to those animals, but because we want to keep them around so they'll be useful later. And of course if the animal is endangered, there's no reason to not let the farmer kill it.
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artu
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posted June 24, 2013 12:07 AM |
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Quote:
It has nothing to do with "we're the greatest animal on Earth". It's about self-interest. If wiping out humanity was in a cat's self-interest, and it had the capability to do so, it would be fine for it to try. One of the many differences between farmers defending their property and serial killers is that serial killers are mistaken about what their interests are.
My "example" says there is no difference between saying "If wiping out humanity was in a cat's self-interest, and it had the capability to do so, it would be fine for it to try." and "does the fish feel sorry for the worm on the hook?"
Even on a pragmatic level (which is not something to be proud of btw), the equivalency you build is absurd and out of life.
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mvassilev
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posted June 24, 2013 12:19 AM |
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Fred was objecting to the attitude of "We are the greatest animals on earth, we can kill whatever we want, as long as it is in OUR way, and/or threatening OUR lifestyle". I pointed out that his representation of it was inaccurate, and said that it's about self-interest, and if it was in a cat's self-interest to wipe out humanity, it would be fine for it to try. My point is "kill if it's in your self-interest", not "if you don't feel sorry for it, you should kill it".
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artu
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posted June 24, 2013 12:29 AM |
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Quote:
My point is "kill if it's in your self-interest"
Civilization does not nullify our animal instincts, they are still there, yes, but our animal instincts does not nullify civilization either.
You are a debater, you like to object and correct and stick it to the man, I get it, really. But take your time sometimes, it helps.
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fred79
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posted June 24, 2013 12:43 AM |
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Quote:
Fred was objecting to the attitude of "We are the greatest animals on earth, we can kill whatever we want, as long as it is in OUR way, and/or threatening OUR lifestyle". I pointed out that his representation of it was inaccurate, and said that it's about self-interest, and if it was in a cat's self-interest to wipe out humanity, it would be fine for it to try. My point is "kill if it's in your self-interest", not "if you don't feel sorry for it, you should kill it".
"kill it if it's in your self-interest." how humane of you. how many have YOU killed, mvass, when it was in your "self-interest"? you know, ted bundy's "self interest" was to kill young women, have sex with their corpses, etc, etc. what.....you.....say.....JUSTIFIES....him.
now do you see what's wrong with that way of thinking about endangered species, and how "the human race is better, so it can do whatever it wants"? we, as humans, being aware of our power, gives us the responsibility to NOT abuse our power. just because you can, doesn't mean you SHOULD, regardless of the motives.
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mvassilev
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posted June 24, 2013 12:47 AM |
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artu:
What does that have to do with anything I said?
fred:
I've killed plenty of insects, but nothing bigger. Doesn't mean I wouldn't if I needed to.
And it wasn't in Ted Bundy's self-interest to kill people. It was in his self-interest to seek treatment for his mental illness. Self-interest doesn't necessarily mean doing whatever you want.
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fred79
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posted June 24, 2013 03:52 AM |
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lol, you're talking about BEST self interest, NOT self interest. 2 different phrases, 2 different meanings. ted bundy never sought any kind of help.
but we're getting off topic. i'll stop now, this has become too sad. 
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Zenofex
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posted June 24, 2013 08:25 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 08:26, 24 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Of course there's such a thing as objective self-interest. For example, it's objectively against your self-interest to commit suicide if you're not suffering.
Why? You may be a member of a sect which strongly believes that by committing suicide you will transcend into some next level of existence, for example - it's clearly in your interest to end your life. Assuming rationality in every human action is wrong a priori and this has been proven by the everyday practice over and over again.
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mvassilev
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posted June 24, 2013 03:00 PM |
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Because what you believe to be correct and what is actually in your self-interest need not be the same thing. You could easily be mistaken about what your interests are - many people are, to a certain extent. Acting in your self-interest doesn't mean doing whatever you want to do, but doing what will make you as happy as possible.
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artu
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posted June 24, 2013 03:04 PM |
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And what paramter determine the "actual" self- interest? Happiness is abstract.
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mvassilev
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posted June 24, 2013 04:59 PM |
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Happiness is a concrete goal - everyone knows when they're there. How to achieve it varies from person to person to some extent (because people have different tastes and preferences) but there is a commonality to all people due to human nature. But this isn't the topic for this.
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Zenofex
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posted June 24, 2013 05:03 PM |
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I'll become incredibly happy, much happier than I've ever been in my life, if I jump from the top of some building, splash myself on the pavement 20 floors down and finally enter the dimension of Mu Zu Chu where I'll become one with all my alter-egos. So?
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artu
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posted June 24, 2013 05:10 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:16, 24 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
Happiness is a concrete goal - everyone knows when they're there. How to achieve it varies from person to person to some extent (because people have different tastes and preferences) but there is a commonality to all people due to human nature.
The goal of happiness is quite common in people, yes. How to achieve it and what it exactly is has no concrete answer though. That's how shrinks earn their living.
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