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| Thread: Egypt |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Elodin
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posted July 03, 2013 06:39 PM |
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Egypt
So, Egypt has decided that being ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood is not very fun. In the face of Morsi being deposed he is finally offering to form a coalition government but refuses to step down. I don't think that is going to fly. The military is not backing him so he has no hope of staying in power with only his Muslim Brotherhood terrorist buddies behind him.
Clicky
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friendofgunnar
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able to speed up time
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posted July 03, 2013 06:50 PM |
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Elodin are you capable of writing a single damn post that doesn't sound like propaganda?
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blizzardboy
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posted July 03, 2013 06:53 PM |
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Egypt is dumb.
Seriously. It's such a dumb country. Even their canal is stupid. They think they're so special with their stupid canal. **** canals. We should just not have an Egypt. They should just join the UK or something. Stupid canal.
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fred79
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posted July 03, 2013 06:57 PM |
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but, the pyramids, bb. think of the pyramids. the sphynx. all a testament to slave labor. just think what we could do with slave labor NOW. 
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blizzardboy
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posted July 03, 2013 06:58 PM |
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I'm going to start an anti-canal movement. We'll advocate sailing boats over the Sahara to save money, or something. Details not important.
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Elodin
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posted July 03, 2013 09:25 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 21:26, 03 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
Elodin are you capable of writing a single damn post that doesn't sound like propaganda?
Pardon me dude. Maybe I should've just written, "Stuff's happening in Egypt," and waited for you to give your version of what's going down.
However, Morsi has been ousted. Comments, dude?
Clicky
Quote:
Egypt's top military commander says the army is now in full control of the country and President Mohammed Morsi has been replaced by the chief justice of the constitutional court as the interim head of state.
He made the announcements in a Wednesday night speech -- the latest twists in an all-out power struggle inside Egypt that Morsi's national security adviser is describing as a military coup.
Gen. Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi said Morsi has failed to meet the demands of Egypt's people and the country's constitution has been temporarily suspended.
Fireworks erupted in Tahrir Square after the announcement was made.
Earlier story below:
Before the announcement, Egyptian troops, including commandos in full combat gear, were deployed across much of Cairo, including at key facilities, on bridges over the Nile River and at major intersections.
The military has vowed to defend its people "against any terrorist, radical or fool.”
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xerox
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posted July 03, 2013 10:21 PM |
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I Think there are two aspects to this. The first is that Mursi did quickly become more authoritarian so protests related to that are understandable and fair (though most of is due to Egypt being in a piss poor economic situation and people having unrealistic expectations on what the state can actually do about that). The second is that Egypt is/was (I don't really know which word to use at the moment) a very young democracy.
The people are not used to democratic institutions and that shows as Mursi was actually fairly elected. The Egyptian people need to understand that in a democracy, there will be bad governments. Bad democratic outcomes are also to be respected untill the day of the next election. I fear that even without Mursi, Egypt's next leader will get similar problems because people have unrealisitc expectations and a lack of respect for democratic institutions.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 03, 2013 10:31 PM |
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Umm, WHAT? 
You mean, if someone managed to screw the system, they should be allowed to screw it the allotted time, because that's the order of things?
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Corribus
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posted July 03, 2013 11:29 PM |
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I just think it's funny that when Mubarak was ousted, the US media pretty much had a collective ejaculation about what a paradise Egypt was suddenly going to become.
LOL. Stupid media.
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xerox
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posted July 04, 2013 12:55 AM |
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Quote:
You mean, if someone managed to screw the system, they should be allowed to screw it the allotted time, because that's the order of things?
No. The next leader needs to be less authoritarian so people don't give up on democracy. At the same they must accept that a) All your problems aren't fixed because you have a democratic government b) You need to realize that there that elections can result in bad governments but you must accept that they're in office untill the next election.
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artu
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posted July 04, 2013 06:46 AM |
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Edited by artu at 06:53, 04 Jul 2013.
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You are so naive, Xerox. The thing in Egypt was an uprising, not a revolution. Democracy is not a regime you cam implant on societies overnight, it begins in the mindset of the actual people and take generations to mature. Mubarek ruled for 30 years before he was thrown out, how do you expect any of the countries' institutions to suddenly adopt to anything after such a long one-man regime anyway. Just think, you are born, you go to high school, you get a job , you have a family etc etc... and all that time, the government never changes.
Also, in Arabic countries, Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of life. The kind of secularism we are accustomed to, dont exist and it never did. I remind you that neither the opposition now, or the uprising crowd back then, had no objection to this. Even when (an Islamist by the standards of my country) Erdogan told them that "a level of secularism, of course not in the Anglo-Saxon sense" was needed after the Arab Spring, he was met with fury and told to mind his own business. Now, a theocracy can not be a true democracy, they are not compatible. So before putting all the pieces in their place according to a Western template in your head, keep in mind none of the terminology you use actually applies to the situation here.
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Fauch
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posted July 04, 2013 06:25 PM |
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Quote:
I Think there are two aspects to this. The first is that Mursi did quickly become more authoritarian so protests related to that are understandable and fair (though most of is due to Egypt being in a piss poor economic situation and people having unrealistic expectations on what the state can actually do about that). The second is that Egypt is/was (I don't really know which word to use at the moment) a very young democracy.
did I see a contradiction, or...?
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The_Gootch
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posted July 08, 2013 07:36 PM |
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Like as not, Turkey is the face of secular government, Islamic country. My country had a pretty good idea for enshrining in its constitution aneed to keep religion out. But those religious types, they're pretty snowing persistent, like cockroaches.
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Elodin
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posted July 08, 2013 09:16 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 21:17, 08 Jul 2013.
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Like as not, Turkey is the face of secular government, Islamic country. My country had a pretty good idea for enshrining in its constitution aneed to keep religion out. But those religious types, they're pretty snowing persistent, like cockroaches.
I object to your inflammatory statement about religious people.
You are a Russian?
The Constitution of the US forbids the feds from sticking it nose in the affairs of religion but does not forbid religion from influencing the government.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ....
I'm hopeful that Egypt learns a lesson that the American left has seemed to not have learned. Character DOES matter in a national leader. If you pick a terrorist leader don't expect him to care about democratic principles. If you get in the way of his agenda he will kill you just as he killed innocents on his terrorist escapades.
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del_diablo
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posted July 10, 2013 01:05 AM |
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&Naive Swede:
Quote:
The Egyptian people need to understand that in a democracy, there will be bad governments. Bad democratic outcomes are also to be respected untill the day of the next election. I fear that even without Mursi, Egypt's next leader will get similar problems because people have unrealisitc expectations and a lack of respect for democratic institutions.
No, thats a horrible train of thought. If you promise to do something if you are elected, do not do it, and then do not remove yourself from power for failing to do so, you have nothing in any form of office unless there is a long an decent explanation for why you failed.
The best thing that can happen for Egypt in long term is that the Army actually dethrones each new government that fails to keep its vows, long term. Short term it just leads to continued chaos until the elected parties do their jobs.
The second thing is: Every single political chesspiece should be banned from entering the new government, just for the sake of cleaning.
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xerox
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posted July 10, 2013 01:18 AM |
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artu: I specifically wrote that Egypt is/was a very young democracy, implying that it has yet to mature. An example of that is the fact they couldn't wait untill the next election to change leader. It is well known that a successful country needs stable institutions that are supported by the people. Of course I realize that they aren't magically going to turn into atheist liberals protesting against sexism.
del_diablo: In Europe and the US we get governments all the time who can't keep their promises. Yet we don't engage in uprisings and try to kill their supporters. This is because we know we can elect another government, we have faith in that the democratic institutions allow us that. Obviously, the Egyptians can't have that since there is no democratic tradition in their country.
Going by your suggestion, Egypt will never get a democratic government and would be much better off as a dictatorship slowing transitioning over to a democracy. The risk in that is that those in power are unlikely to want to give it away.
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Fauch
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posted July 10, 2013 02:11 AM |
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Quote:
It is well known that a successful country needs stable institutions that are supported by the people.
which doesn't exactly seems to be the case.
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del_diablo: In Europe and the US we get governments all the time who can't keep their promises. Yet we don't engage in uprisings and try to kill their supporters. This is because we know we can elect another government, we have faith in that the democratic institutions allow us that.
we have faith?? here a large part of the population already don't vote anymore, and those who do often, don't vote for their favorite, but for the least worst of those who have a chance of being elected. as a result we get a total imcompetent such as Hollande. and I won't even be surprised if he reaches the 2nd turn again the next time... after all, no one wanted Sarkozy anymore and he still almost won in 2012.
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xerox
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posted July 10, 2013 02:35 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 02:38, 10 Jul 2013.
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which doesn't exactly seems to be the case.
indeed
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we have faith??
You have faith in that you will actually get a working election without a massive risk of cheats and getting a leader who won't turn France into a secular or theocratic dictatorship.
According to this BBC article, French voter turnout is at about 80% which I'd consider to be very good. In the US, half the population doesn't even seem to bother. Anyway i'm going to Paris in August but if the French people vote for Hollande again, then that will be my last visit. He is without a doubt the worst president in the EU with his taxes which ends up reducing tax income and a protectionism that is seriously limiting the EU:s possibility to take Europe one step out of the crisis. France is the main reason why the EU is spending over half its budget on agricultural subsidies and quotas.
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Over himself, over his own
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fred79
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posted July 10, 2013 03:35 AM |
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i think, xerox, that the smart americans no longer vote. of the ones who do, i don't think they are complete dumbasses, i think they are voting like someone would root for a sports team. they figure, if the person they voted for wins the election, then, by default, THEY win. just like sports fans. it's retarded, really. i don't think anyone really takes it seriously anymore.
and they shouldn't. anyone who has faith in THAT system clearly has lost touch with reality.
i think, if i tried(or cared to), i could go find the links to everything i've been saying about the u.s. government(a lot of the stuff on actual .gov sites), that would remove the "tin foil hat" aura that seems to surround me here, and show me as someone more along the lines of a respectable, sane poster. but i'm too lazy for that, really. it's not like it would make any difference in the long run.
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xerox
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posted July 10, 2013 05:11 PM |
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Well, there are huge problems with the entire american political system and I can't believe there isn't a wider support to reform it. Not only has it do with the congress inability to actually do stuff, it has to do with democracy. When only half the population bothers to vote, you have a democratic problem. I believe it's caused by the two-party system (plus the whole thing where your vote doesn't even matter if you're a democrat in a republican state or vice versa). When there's two bad candidates, you're forced to vote for the least bad one.
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Over himself, over his own
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mind, the individual is
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- John Stuart Mill
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