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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 31, 2013 09:31 AM |
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Quote:
This and copying into another body are different. The person I am now has minuscule differences from the person I was a second ago, but I have continuity of experience. If my information were copied, me-in-my-new-body would also have experiential continuity with my old body up to the moment of copying, but me-in-my-old-body would not have experiential continuity with then new body.
That's partially what I'm saying. The copying will always produce some new information. The fact that your "new self" inhabits a body which is not the same as your "old self" is a new information itself - the two bodies take different places in space and time, so even if their content is 100% the same, there already is a degree of uniqueness. Even if for "you" this difference is very small, it is not so small in general - there are now two displaced "sets" of similar information which interact (not necessarily actively) with the world on their own, hence they simply can not remain identical even for a very brief moment. At the very least, one of them will be "here" and the other one - "there". Even the act of the quantification (1+1=2 or 2>1) already implies that a change has occurred in the world.
There's however another point that should be considered. Even if there is just one "you", it is not static set of information. The atoms that compose you are in motion but so are the atoms that compose the environment with which you interact. Every second there's a huge number of changes that result from these interactions between "you" and "the world". In other words, what you normally perceive as "self" is actually a grand simplification of all the changes that have occurred during a given time frame. It's also incorrect in a sense, because it captures the information like a photo - still, without the innumerable interactions that take place at any moment, so it can form a "stable image". What "you" are is best described as a stream of events and not as a fixed set of quantities and qualities.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 01, 2013 04:23 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 04:31, 01 Aug 2013.
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Moderator note: Moved by popular request.
EDIT: And worst of the spam removed.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 01, 2013 09:56 AM |
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I wanted to make fun of death, but you turned it into another boring debate... oh, well.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 01, 2013 10:20 AM |
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I think, the purely informational view is WAY too simplified. That's a speculation that assumes a lot and mixes a couple of things - and the only question it leads to is the following: IF INDEED everything can be broken down into information, that this information can be stored, and if it CAN be stored, it may well ALREADY be stored in some higher-dimensional, immaterial "Cloud".
I do NOT think that the process described will work: even if you CAN read all the info - which may not be possible - you will have to "digitalize" it - which may not be possible, at least not the way we do that now -, and even if that works and you can store the info on a DHD, a "Digital Human Disc", how is this info supposed to be processed into a new person? Either you need some kind of "player" - but that would allow only the repeated playing of what has been stored -, or some kind of template to put the disc into - a persona template or something. Don't forget that the problem is a biological one: you would have to alter the information somehow to keep the person, but change the biological age. Or transfer the "conscience" whatever that means, into a new body.
All that is philosophically interesting, but ultimately it's speculation without any real foundation.
In my opinion longevity will be reached by simply decoding the process of cell regeneration. People get old and die because their cells lose the ability to regenerate, although there doesn't seem any necessity for that. You might argue philosophically, that it's an evolutionary by-product, if we assume certain "build priorities" - the old will make way for the new. Maybe this is necessary for the drive to multiply, who knows.
But this probably works like a chip that limits your car to go faster than 250 KpH, and we may be able to remove the chip. It may come with a price though.
In any case, forever is a mighty long time - of course you will have to WORK forever as well, if your biology will make you stay 30 for an eternity. And if technology progresses and people don't have to work anymore - then what? Will we find the drive to try and explore the stars? If not, we won't be able to have children anymore, only if someone dies accidentally. How much more FEAR will people have to die (of sickness or happenstance or murder)?
What will people do with all their time? Won't they be bored to hell and back?
I mean, NOW death is terrible when it hits in your vicinity. Grandparents, parents - but that's the way of the world, everyone suffers that fate. Worse is, if people lose a child - people younger than them. Or the spouse.
Now, if everyone could live eternally in theory - how extremely sad would it be to lose someone?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 01, 2013 03:17 PM |
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Quote:
What will people do with all their time? Won't they be bored to hell and back?
It's not like old people are bored now - when they are, it's because their bodies are no longer in a fit state to do things they'd want to do. There's plenty to do when you're immortal: go to Mars, play chess with your great-grandchildren, see aliens (if any), read all the good books in the world and write a better one, and partake of all the good things the future will have that we can't imagine now.
Also, as technology improves, we'll be able to support an increasingly large population.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 01, 2013 03:34 PM |
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Death is when your cells stop updating, die because of various reasons and your brain says "gg".
If anyone wonders how death feels like, ask yourself how you felt when you were unborn?
Right, nothing. People may disagree, I dont care.
I really hope humanity never acieves immortality. The last thing I would want is some rich snow live forever. At least death comes to them and stops the tyranny of a tyrant.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 01, 2013 04:03 PM |
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She just died today.
I don't want any comforting words, i just hope and pray I'll meet her again and that the pain will go away after a while.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 01, 2013 04:08 PM |
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i'm sorry for your loss, dd. 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 01, 2013 04:15 PM |
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Quote:
did you forget that technology isn't available for everyone, and that the common man cannot go into space when this planet is overcrowded?
More of the old "the rich will keep it to themselves"? Just like they kept agriculture, writing, and the polio vaccine to themselves, right?
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Eccentric Opinion
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 01, 2013 04:32 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 01, 2013 04:37 PM |
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The living forever thing also has a social aspect, we start talking about the good ol' times even when we reach forty or fifty. At some point people start to dislike major changes in their life. Remember the novel Interview with the Vampire, the vampires started to grow old simply because they lost the ability to cope with the changing world.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted August 01, 2013 05:15 PM |
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Death will never be abolished by man.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted August 01, 2013 05:54 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 18:38, 01 Aug 2013.
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mvassilev said:
Just like they kept agriculture, writing, and the polio vaccine to themselves, right?
Agriculture, writing and polio vaccines were things that came directly to the people.
If all the worlds electricity was to be dependent on Thomas Edison, we would still be using DC instead of AC in our electrical devices. Just look at the New York metro, even today it still uses DC, though that maybe because of other economical reasons.
I also believe that a HIV vaccine is available, but not put out for the public.
Also, 3rd world countries do not have access to technology.
People who do have access to technology, have better lives and technology is the only thing that has made human lives better, and still does so, but it is far from being there for the sake of people.
I guess the technology for lightbulbs that dont get damaged over time is there, but will never be seen because it would hurt sales on the long time.
Same goes for medicaments and other tech. Many times, a company patents something, never to use it in a product.
Why do I believe this? I just look around and see to what lengths people are capable of going to achieve something.
Going from relatives, to complete strangers, I have had the chance to peek into how devious people can be...and I can really understand them.
Again, I really hope that people never discover BIOLOGICALimmortality, because the mere thought of scumbag achieving BIOLOGICALimmortality would put that technology to a shame.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 01, 2013 06:02 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:03, 01 Aug 2013.
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I think it's very likely that we will find ways to reach immortality. There has been much progress in technological augmentations and genetic manipulation.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 01, 2013 06:58 PM |
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mvass said:
Just like they kept agriculture, writing, and the polio vaccine to themselves, right?
First of all, agriculture was indeed kept for the rich until a new social class replaced the landlords with industrial production. That is what the feudal system and aristocracy is: Privileged landowners keeping the production for themselves. And writing was also something only the elite used to learn, until, (again) industrialization came along and your common factory worker had to know how to read and write. Not polio vaccine but a lot of medication is very expensive and beyond most of the world population's reach.
But let's just assume all your examples weren't historically so wrong and this new technology had evolved into something as cheap and common as a deck of cards (in the medieval ages owning a deck of cards was like owning a Ferrari). Now either we will stop reproducing or this will be used by a minority, there's no third option. You can't keep breeding like rabbits and take death out of the equation. So since it's very unlikely that reproduction will be outlawed, it will be a minority and it will be a privilege. Which means people with more money will have more chance to buy their way in.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 01, 2013 07:04 PM |
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Quote:
agriculture was indeed kept for the rich until a new social class replaced the landlords with industrial production. That is what the feudal system and aristocracy is: Privileged landowners keeping the production for themselves. And writing was also something only the elite used to learn, until, (again) industrialization came along and your common factory worker had to know how to read and write. Not polio vaccine but a lot of medication is very expensive and beyond most of the world population's reach.
Agriculture was not kept "for the rich", even medieval peasants benefited from it. They may not have owned land, but they still literally reaped the benefits of farming. As for writing, most peasants were too poor to hire someone to teach them to write. It's not like there was some conspiracy of rich people sitting in a room somewhere and cackling, "We're not going to let anyone learn how to write, muahaha!" The same goes for medicine - something being expensive doesn't mean the rich are keeping it for themselves.
As for reproduction, as we have seen in Western countries, as the opportunity cost of having children increases, people want to have fewer children.
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Eccentric Opinion
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 01, 2013 07:12 PM |
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Lots of the medieval nobility also didn't bother to lear how to read anyway.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 01, 2013 07:16 PM |
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They worked almost like slaves for a very little benefit. That was to keep them as a work force. And if something is beyond your reach anyway, why should people keep it from you, not to mention a serf learning to read and write was indeed a taboo and he'd be told to go back to his business and not mess with the order of things.
Even as of now, the world population is rapidly multiplying and when people dont die, even having a single kid is enough to eventually overcrowd the world.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 01, 2013 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
They worked almost like slaves for a very little benefit.
I'd rather be a medieval peasant than a hunter-gatherer. The point is, the benefits of agriculture were not restricted to the wealthy.
Quote:
And if something is beyond your reach anyway, why should people keep it from you
That's an entirely separate question. It's comparing "I want something but I can't afford it" to "A bunch of rich people are conspiring not to let me have it, even though I can afford it."
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Eccentric Opinion
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 01, 2013 07:54 PM |
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Who cares about overpopulation, when you can get augmented.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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