|
| Thread: Lubomir's upgrade balancing patch |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
|
Lubomir
Tavern Dweller
|
posted September 14, 2013 01:08 PM |
|
Edited by Lubomir at 13:11, 14 Sep 2013.
|
Lubomir's upgrade balancing patch
Hello all dear Heroes players. I am sure there are many of you who feel just like me - annoyed about some unbalanced upgrades. Let me evaluate. Alternative upgrade is an unique Heroes V asset that brings or should bring even more diversity and strategic gameplay. It's an excellent and enjoyable, me an my family love it. But in few cases alternative upgrade is so much more useful than the first one, that we choose it in 98% of times.
Personally, when I realized how much better is Vampire prince to Vampire lord I got annoyed. My annoyance broght me to this small project, my little patch that aims to remove the pain from the ass. I browsed trough some forums and did research which other creatures are being selected always. Arcane archers it seems, I read some angry posts about being 100% pick.
My patch balances the upgrades, by either upgrading less useful upgrade or downgrading more useful upgrade. Yet I want to maintain the coherency of Nival's decision and policy, say they decided Arcane archers should have initiative advantage over master hunters (11 ini vs 10), I do think that Arcane archers should have initiative 9, but I respect Nival's decision and I did not touch the initiative. I chose to alter hp and damage and shot count.
Heroes V is rather old game today and player are used to creatures as they are. Therefore I tried no to break these feelings, not changing the game as it is, only slightly adjusting it to enhance gameplay. What do I mean???
That I want EVERY UPGRADE to have its use and to be picked on occasions!
Download the patch, test it, post here your suggestions which stats you would change and first of all, help the development writing about your experience if there is any upgrade that is selected always.
Changes in version 0.2:
Academy
Rakshasa Raja
Defence 22 instead of 20
Power/exp 2551/160 instead of 2535/160
Rakshasa Kshatra
HP 130 instead of 135
Power/exp 2565/160 instead of 2581/161
Dungenon
Minotaur Guard
Speed 6 instead of 5
Power/exp 483/39 instead of 474/38
Shadow Mistress
Attack 22 instead of 20
Defense 22 instead of 20
Power/exp 2637/156 instead of 2622/156
Shadow Matriarch
Power/exp 2597/156 instead of 2537/155
Heaven
Zealot
Hp 74 instead of 80
Mana 14 instead of 15
Power/exp 1496/100 instead of 1523/100
Inferno
Horned Overseer
Given immunity to fire
Power/exp 160/16 instead of 150/16
Cerberus
Initiative 14 instead of 13
Damage 5-6 instead of 4-6
Power/exp 387/34 instead of 370/33
Firehound
Power/exp 366/33 instead of 338/30
Succubus Misstress
Given immunity to fire
Power/exp 711/56 instead of 694/55
Succubus Seducer
Power/exp 700/56 instead of 680/54
Pit Lord
Given immunity to fire
Given an Armageddon spell at basic mastery 
Power/exp 2454/157 instead of 2360/150
Necropolis
Akeleton Archer
Given warding arrow
Power/exp 86/10 instead of 84/10
Vampire Lord
Initiative 13 instead of 11
Power/exp 759/62 instead of 739/60
Archlich
Given no-malee penalty
Hp 60 instead of 55
Power/exp 1553/101 instead of 1539/100
Sylvan
Wind Dancer
Initiative 14 instead of 15
Power/exp 297/28 instead of 308/28
War Dancer
Power/exp 300/28 instead of 311/29
Arcane Archer
Damage 4-9 instead of 8-9
Hp 10 instead of 14
Shots 8 instead of 16
Power/exp 430/37 instead of 447/39
High Druid
Initiative 9 instead of 10
Power/exp 853/62 instead of 862/64
Crystal Dragon
Inititative 13 instead of 14
Attack 28 instead of 30
Power/exp 5879/300 instead of 5905/301
Emerald Dragon
Power/exp 5902/300 instead of 6028/300
Fortress
Battlerager
Attack 6 instead of 7
Defence 6 instead of 7
Power/exp 430/41 instead of 434/41
How to install? Download the files, unpack them using winrar. Copy them into Heroes V/data folder .
How to uninstall? Delete the files you copied and puff - original stats are back.
http://rapidshare.com/share/91132B423821C9099CAF3D5BFB4E2D3A
____________
|
|
adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
|
|
posted September 15, 2013 11:06 AM |
|
|
Sorry , but I think your changes are not well-made . Necro is alerady maybe the best faction without adding no enemy retaliation to Liches . Also , decreasing Sylvan's creatures' stats isn't good at all . Before you change stats , take a look please to the creatures' growth , and beware of any other bonuses factions have (like necromancy and gating) ; don't judge the factions' power only by creatures' stats . Cheers 
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted September 16, 2013 12:01 PM |
|
|
Hello,
It is good to see at least one person who tries to do it...
A lot of people complain about it but at the end no one does anything about it.
first, for starters DO NOT edit Necropolis.
Their imbalance come from multiple perks and synergy of abilities.
They will be hard to balance.
Second, make a table with all creatures weekly growth and status (att, def, init, damage, hp etc..).
Third, make a few calcs to compare total damage output for a weekly growth of a unit with a Weekly growth of another unit from the same level.
Check the ratio.
then get the ratio between initiative of those creatures.
Speaking straight math : the more the damage the less the initiative it should have and vice versa.
Have in mind that this is NOT completely correct as comparing 2 creatures will not bring balance if you do not take in mind the synergy of the modified creature with the other ones from its faction.
(for example: Sylvan Treant is slow and snowty but having in mind that he is big and tough + snare it is very good defender for the Archers,druids which do huge amounts of damage despite the fact they are week. Do you see how two units can be very powerful when they combine opposite strengths/weaknesses ? )
I will be honest with you here.
There is a lot of math when it comes to balance.
But math is far from enough. You need experience in PvP in order to know what strategy/approach is OP and what is not.
I am far from the best PvP player but I play PvP a lot lately.
If you want you can contact me on skype: thedredknight
Note: there are a lot of imbalanced things besides creatures - spells, abilties etc.. I will be glad to know if it is possible to edit them or not?
Thanks for the thread!
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 16, 2013 10:50 PM |
|
|
|
most spells can be modified. they are somewhere in GameMechanics, don't remember well, but that should be easy to find. many perks can be modified in DefaultStats.xdb, somewhere in game mechanics as well. actually it is in a folder where you can modify a lot of files that deal with gameplay, so you have quite a lot of options.
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted September 17, 2013 09:57 AM |
|
|
thanks for the info. Can you point me how to reach this place... I am completely unware how to get up to there (what to unrar... how to do it etc...).
Thanks a lot!!
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 17, 2013 03:45 PM |
|
|
|
somewhere in the ToE directory you'll find an archive called data.pak. you can open it with softwares such as winrar or winzip (not sure if both will work)
|
|
flonembourg
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 17, 2013 05:34 PM |
|
|
You know the RPE Mod exist too and the balance between upgrade is good too....
The fact is many players seem to return to H5 because of the major failure of H6... The worst is H6 is unmodable or at least too hard to mod.
Here there is so many mods and in h6 forum there is what?? 1 Mod, 2 mod... i love heroes game but what i love the most is to change files, stats.... Please Ubi don't messed up Heroes 7.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 17, 2013 06:27 PM |
|
|
dredknight said:
thanks for the info. Can you point me how to reach this place... I am completely unware how to get up to there (what to unrar... how to do it etc...).
Thanks a lot!!
Try this
____________
|
|
Lubomir
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted September 18, 2013 07:08 PM |
|
|
adriancat said:
Sorry , but I think your changes are not well-made . Necro is alerady maybe the best faction without adding no enemy retaliation to Liches . Also , decreasing Sylvan's creatures' stats isn't good at all . Before you change stats , take a look please to the creatures' growth , and beware of any other bonuses factions have (like necromancy and gating) ; don't judge the factions' power only by creatures' stats . Cheers
What a criticizing reaction you've posted. However, most of the information you write is rather misinformation. I need not to say more here.
Dreadknight - thanks a lot for your offer. However I feel you misunderstood me as well as the guys on the other forum. You all think at first I am making OVERALL balancing patch. Strict no to that. The only thing I do is - I want all creatures to be useful on occasions, all creatures (from upgrades) to have a use so they can be picked. I do not plan to make my patch huge. I would follow rather slight changes, except Arcane archers or Vampire Lords who aren't useful any more. As an experienced player, you are very welcomed to write about any other upgrade that is less useful than the other one (f.i. I hear Champions are much more useful than Paladins). You are welcomed to write about that plus what you suggest as a change to that.
Lastly, I do not aim to balance whole game, why would I? I see as beauty the elves being perhaps the best lvl 3 creature, and so on.
flonembourgh - You are one of minority players, who are satisfied with upgrade balance. I am not and I started doing this patch out of my annoynment for not being able to use Vampire Lords, but Vampire Princes picking always. I still want to do this patch for me, but I will share it with anyone else who is interested.
|
|
flonembourg
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 18, 2013 10:10 PM |
|
|
Lubomir said:
flonembourgh - You are one of minority players, who are satisfied with upgrade balance. I am not and I started doing this patch out of my annoynment for not being able to use Vampire Lords, but Vampire Princes picking always. I still want to do this patch for me, but I will share it with anyone else who is interested.
Lubomir i didn't say that i was satisfied by the balance between upgrade i have just said that there is still a MOD in this forum called "RPE Mod" who has balanced very well alternative upgrade like your Mod.
There is for sure no choice between arcane archer (the best choice) and master hunter (the worst) but in your example with vampire Lord vs Vampire Prince if your fight again a necro faction the better choice is not so obvious because the torpor ability is useless and is 100% Vampire Lord you pick because the no enemy retaliation ability is not useless.
So i assume the change you make for vampire is for creeping purpose?
i have no time to comment your change now but i'll do it for every creature i have time to kill...
First creature Rakshasa Raja you increased by +2 the Defense and in the same time you decrease the HP of Rakshasa Kshatra by 5.... Why??? Can you explain a bit?
I always had the feeling unlike to you that Rakshasa Raja is the best choice with his no retaliation ability moreover academy is a magic faction (not a might) so tou want your creatures survive the longest time to cast all the spell you want and no enemy retaliation is the best ability in this case.
For me is just my opinion they are good as they are no need to nerf the second and increase the first defense by +2...
|
|
Lubomir
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted September 19, 2013 11:57 PM |
|
|
flonembourg said:
Lubomir said:
flonembourgh - You are one of minority players, who are satisfied with upgrade balance. I am not and I started doing this patch out of my annoynment for not being able to use Vampire Lords, but Vampire Princes picking always. I still want to do this patch for me, but I will share it with anyone else who is interested.
Lubomir i didn't say that i was satisfied by the balance between upgrade i have just said that there is still a MOD in this forum called "RPE Mod" who has balanced very well alternative upgrade like your Mod.
There is for sure no choice between arcane archer (the best choice) and master hunter (the worst) but in your example with vampire Lord vs Vampire Prince if your fight again a necro faction the better choice is not so obvious because the torpor ability is useless and is 100% Vampire Lord you pick because the no enemy retaliation ability is not useless.
So i assume the change you make for vampire is for creeping purpose?
i have no time to comment your change now but i'll do it for every creature i have time to kill...
First creature Rakshasa Raja you increased by +2 the Defense and in the same time you decrease the HP of Rakshasa Kshatra by 5.... Why??? Can you explain a bit?
I always had the feeling unlike to you that Rakshasa Raja is the best choice with his no retaliation ability moreover academy is a magic faction (not a might) so tou want your creatures survive the longest time to cast all the spell you want and no enemy retaliation is the best ability in this case.
For me is just my opinion they are good as they are no need to nerf the second and increase the first defense by +2...
Thanks for this constructive post. Let me react on that.
I do not clearly understand why you wonder about vampire lords and prices. I can't believe what I read - torpor is useless? I have been doing some research as well as I have been playing Heroes for a while and I have never heard of it being useless. I am confused and I feel like misunderstnding you, can't see other explanation. On the other hand, I heard players crying that with torpor 50 princes can asleep 100 champions, I heard torpor being radiculously overpowered, which is my experience as well. Maximal damage, creature sleeping for few turns, plus better speed and even more hp! Vampire prince is broken creature comparing to Vampire Lords and I have never heard of a player picking vampire lord. Only I may presume vs mechanical and elementals, when torpor can't work. However my +2 initiative makes good use of princes now, I've been testing it for a while and I feel like princes and lords are finally equal.
Now Rajas. I have felt Kshatras being quite better due to whirlwind. You know when I could hit 3 or even 4 creatures at the same time on battlefield, I saw less use for Rajas. I am focusing on multiplayer, I guess dreadknight could join discussion - are rajas picked in multiplayer at all?
Btw I returned to your post and you are right there is no such thing as you are happy with upg balance. I do know remember where I took it from.
Too all other players I will now evaluate some of other changes I have made, for your comprehension:
ALL the changes I made to Inferno is due to my feeling as Inferno being totally poorest town of all. Let us be frank, how often is it played by good players in multiplayer? But right, I am not Jesus, I am not savior of whole game balance. But I wanted to make slight improve of some of its upgrades. Horned deamons - I felt they were picked less often than the other ones with LEAP (very good ability), also I read some posts about succubus seducers being overpowered in multiplayer and finally Pit Spawn have way too many advantages over pit friends. And you know what? Ia look at all these creatures graphics and what I saw? Hell, flames! Yes they are burning like hell should be and I knew they need immune to fire. Still Pit lords deserved some other improvement, I thought a bit about it and I decided about armageddon spell. Did some testing now and it doesn't look like overkill. Definitely immune to fire is a good improvement for all of them.
Archlich - I go from the fact that lich masters cast rise dead. We all know it's a ressourection spell for undead, so everybody wants to have resourrecting creature in the army. Therefore I feel archliches need improvement, still they have nice cloud (they are picked vs sylvan and academy for it), but even though I wanted to make them better shooters. Since they are large and get blocked often, no-malee penalty looked cozy. It also doesn't break lich image! (I was thinking to give them maneuver, but then I didn't feel lich to be so agile as to run and shoot! )
I have enough now, lastly let me past here new link to my patch if you would like to test it out for all of us:
Mediafire: http://www.mediafire.com/download/ch6h2ue84f1sm54/GameMechanics.rar
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 20, 2013 02:27 AM |
|
|
|
I think he meant torpor is useless against undeads.
|
|
flonembourg
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 20, 2013 12:16 PM |
|
|
Fauch said:
I think he meant torpor is useless against undeads.
YES thanks Fauch!
I didn't say torpor is a useless ability because is the most broken ability in the game BUT this ability is useless if you fight in multiplayer against the undead town.
All i want to say is an overpower ability can be totally useless and the fact is Vampire lord is in this particular case a better choice.
And you know my english is poor so it's difficult for me to be understood (google translate...) but to continue with the same vampire lord he is even more effective when you cast on him phantom forces thanks to is no retaliation ability he never die, and is the same with raise dead when you cast this spell on him is more effective than vampire prince because the enemy don't retaliate and the vampire lord with is life drain resurect himself....
You see that on many situations vampire lord is more effective than vampire prince the stat of a creature is not all you must look at the spells, the faction, the enemy...
personally i always creep with vampire lord but in final battle i changed them into vampire prince.
For the other things like inferno i'm 100% OK they need a boost!
In the "RPE MOD" pit lord have been improved like this: cast fireball on advanced mastery instead of basic.
Horned overseer +2 HP +1 defense and the ability explosion more damaging
Succubus mistress damage 7-13 (don't forget thet have chain shot)....
There is many way to balance things but be carefull to not broke the balance like with that:
Necropolis
Skeleton Archer
Given warding arrow May be a little too much a shooter is still a good ability for creeping.
As i tell you before take a look at the "RPE MOD".
|
|
Undead_king_
Hired Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2013 12:53 PM |
|
|
Kinda good changes man good job.
Ok i have this problem, i can't find my GameMechanics and Creatures folders in my instalation, so i can edit the creatures myself..
.I dunno why this problem existed, because when i installed the game on my Windows XP all folders where there (Creatures, Game MEchanics etc) and i could edit them freely
But no on my laptop when i installed the game, all the same except those folders are missing, can anyone tell me where to find them or does someone have this problem too ?
Also now thx to TS i have the creatures folders, but i still don't have the rest (Buildings, General MEchanics(for example How much would be the next level of Bloodrage, How much damage does Death Wail, What bonuses do Stronghold creatures gain during BloodRage levels, How much damage does the Warcry of the Horde etc...) Does someone have the same problem ? Im pretty sure it's because the Windows 7 engine, or if not can someone give me a link to all the editable Mechanics ( Creatures, BUildings, General Mechanics, etc.. ) Thank you !
PS: Ok i managed to edit the units thx to this folder, but i can't find the real names of some abilities ( for example it's Righteous Might is named Bloodlust in the mechanics)...
____________
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 22, 2013 03:49 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 15:49, 22 Sep 2013.
|
|
the lists of abilities names are in gamemechanics in the same place as defaultstats.xdb if I remember well.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 22, 2013 07:24 PM |
|
|
Undead_king_ said:
PS: Ok i managed to edit the units thx to this folder, but i can't find the real names of some abilities ( for example it's Righteous Might is named Bloodlust in the mechanics)...
Use the Modding Wiki - Lists of IDs!
There you'll find the names used in the txt files and the names showed in game
____________
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted September 23, 2013 09:19 AM |
|
|
hey all,
First and foremost Inferno are weak, that is for sure.
But giving all of them fire immunity and armagedon will not help much...
firstly, point where there weakness is -
1. No shooters and low tiers
2. weak and slow starting units
- Familiar - fast but very weak, low dmg
- deamon - a bit bulkier, but due to his low initiative the stack always takes a lot of casualties, again low damage
Familiar + daemon = weak HP, low damage, no range = hard-time-grinding
There are a few ways to balance the faction :
1. edit the creatures to fit some early game strategy - Familars are OK for me, they got very strong PvP skill, they are fast, good upgrades too. I wouldnt touch em.
But demons are another part of the story, the only way you can use them is by getting the ugprade with the LEAP ability. They are complete crap...
lets go back to inferno weakneses. They have one archer who has low initative - this makes inferno the faction with the greatest number of casualties as all other shooting NPCs will have at least one clean shot at their units. Inferno is offensive melee race so we would want to stick to this too and keep up with the story of the faction .
What are demons in nature? they are catty by nature, smugly and sometimes their stupidity blinds them due to their self-confidence.
How can we change them for good (of the game) without changing them at all?
My idea is to give them a skill that will allow them to instant gate (Urgash Call style) at the beginning of the battle (and may be give them some extra HP +2?).
This way you got all the minuses eliminated -
- grinding against shooting NPCs no longer a threat - you block em and get em with the imps.
- Make them important for PvP - if not for causing damage at least for blocking enemy shooters for a round in order to buy the needed time for gating/attacking with the melee inferno units.
- grinding against high init/speed units no longer a problem - with that instant gate you can block some major points so the 300-NPC nightmares will not insta-kill any of your stacks.
...And voala! one little change fixes the whole faction!
Thank you for your time guys!
Please share your opinion, may be i did not think of all sides of this change.
|
|
flonembourg
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 23, 2013 12:11 PM |
|
|
You can also changed the building prices, you don't change the stats of the creatures but decrease the building cost of the weakest creatures like , peasants ( not so cheap) thanks to that you build faster than you opponent even if your creatures are not good at creeping.
But just a point! you talk about synergy, inferno have access to logistic and a good access to teleport assault so just with that horned oversseer (level 2 creatures) can be very useful to block shooter and to strike before they shoot.
And for me creeping with inferno= triple ballista no need to have good creatures.
You have to make choice between easy creeping with ballista (but not so good in the final battle) or difficult creeping but better skills for the final battle.
Also and i'll finish with that don't forget that the horned demon (and their upgrades) have the Spawn of Chaos building who increased the growth by +2 so 17 horned demon by week is not so bad in term of HP = 221 only Necropolis have a better HP/growth... you know in the corner horned demon + press defense and ballista + magic arrow do pretty well with creeping....
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted September 23, 2013 12:33 PM |
|
|
flonembourg, I agree with you but please for the moment neglect balista skill as it is one that can be picked by any faction (more or less).
Balista is priority skill for Heaven as well but they can do very good without it anyway, dont they?
The last 2 months I have 10+ games with inferno straight, and I never build the horned demons population building because of the 5 sulfur it requires.
I prefer to go for hounds + (nightmares or succubi) on week 1 and later on I still cant spare sulfur for them as other things have more priority.
May be removing the 5 sulfur and leaving just the gold will do good.
The faction already requires vast amount of sulfur + mercury.
do you agree ?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Just to sum up the reasonable fixes for inferno we have came up with:
1. Permanent Urgash call for demons
2. Removing the sulfur requirement from the bonus dwelling building for demons.
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
flonembourg
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 23, 2013 01:49 PM |
|
|
Yes i agree, in this case the balance would be to lower the cost of buildings.
In other part if tou take a look at the others towns there is every time a useless creature Horned demon/peasant/walking dead/gargoyle/minotaur/blade dancers (not sure).
When you say permanent urgash call for demons, you mean for all creatures? or for only horned demon?(and upgrades of course).
In the first case it's a bit overpowered in my opinion.
dredknight said:
flonembourg, I agree with you but please for the moment neglect balista skill as it is one that can be picked by any faction (more or less).
Yes and no because ballista is a main skill for inferno and ballista is more damaging used by inferno than other town... it's as if you told me forget the magic of destruction for the dungeon because other cities can use it.
You can't simply ignore balista because is one of the main skill of inferno like summoning magic for necropolis or luck for elves.
|
| |
|
|
