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| Thread: HotA Secondary Skills Balance |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2014 12:07 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 12:23, 19 Feb 2014.
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@Maciek
Okay, looking at 30%/50%/100% for basic/advanced/expert.
You can get expert learning by level 3 at the easiest, correct? So at around level 3 you'll get double exp for the rest of the game compared to a hero without learning. At level 9 you'd be ahead by 9000 exp points (discarding any bonus before expert at level 3). This bring you to a total of 20.000 exp points which amounts to level 12 plus a little exp that I didn't calculate into it. Level 13 is @ 22.100 exp.
So you be ahead 3+ levels at this point in time. Measured by exp alone then you're ahead by a lot. Measured otherwise, you'd be ahead by 3 primary skills points, besides having 3 points added into your secondary skills before a hero without learning would.
It would be a very, very good (OP?) skill with these bonuses. Being ahead by 1,2,3 levels could mean a lot early game.
But I now realize that the numbers 2.5%, 5%, 7.5% bonuses to learning from artifacts would be an abyssal amount.  Besides, who knows when you'll even be able to acquire them, anyhow. Maybe an equal bonus form the eagle eye artifacts to learning would actually be appropriate as valgaav suggested as part of a theoretical solution.
btw, I found this:
1-75+ level table
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted February 19, 2014 12:23 PM |
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High levels take too much experience to level up - I doubt a 10/20/30% bonus would make a huge difference to the point of needing a reduction. Combined with Eagle Eye it would be a pretty nice skill to have, imo.
A 30/50/100 sounds too powerful, imo. It's not about making Learning a must skill to have, it's about giving it some usefulness so you may consider picking it.
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hellburn
Famous Hero
The efreet
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posted February 19, 2014 12:24 PM |
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Edited by hellburn at 12:43, 19 Feb 2014.
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Experience table for Heroes 3, I've made. If anyone needs it (data taken directly from gameplay).
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valgaav
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 19, 2014 01:16 PM |
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Edited by valgaav at 13:31, 19 Feb 2014.
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hippox89 said:
@Maciek
It would be a very, very good (OP?) skill with these bonuses. Being ahead by 1,2,3 levels could mean a lot early game.
IMHO it would be ok for learning to be 50% at expert. 100% makes a very good start and fast leveling which may be unfair on S and M maps.
The trick here is however that learning will always be useless if a hero does not get it early, but that's just how this skill is.
BTW about artillery /first aid. I think the biggest problem with those skills is that both tent and ballista may get destroyed in late game very easily. Giving it any extra HP or ressurect will make them too good at start (h5 anyone? ).
The solution is to leave those skills as they are but make Tent, Ballista and Catapult non-targetable by units or spells. This way those skills gets a lot better because the machines will never get destroyed. I also noticed some MP rules disallow destroying catapult in siege. This change would also solve that .
h3 mechanic stays as it is, just that you cannot destroy machines. Simple solution that makes those skills a lot better.
BTW it's funny how diplomacy is not discussed here. Clearly it needs a big nerf/change as it is way too good right now (combined with necro or inferno it gets even better)
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Maciek
Known Hero
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posted February 19, 2014 02:38 PM |
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Learning bonus for final battle
Case 1: You can get enough xp to get 8 Sec. Skills to Expert before final battle.
Then Learning gives you just the extra primary skillpoints for extra levels and perhaps a small bonus to specialty. Are +3 or +4 random Primary Skillpoints OP compared to, let's say, Offense or Archery?
Would you choose that over, let's say, Leadership or a second Magic school?
Case 2: You can get enough xp to get 3-7 Sec. Skills to Expert before final battle.
Then Learning gives you the extra Primary skillpoints and specialty bonus for extra levels. If you level up Learning early, you might have the same number of other Secondary Skillpoints as your oponent who skips Learning or you might even be 1 point higher. If you level it up later, you will have lower number of other Sec. Skills than your oponent.
Would +3 or +4 Primary Skillpoints and perhaps 1 Secondary Skillpoint for harder creeping (perhaps you took Offense or Earth later) be OP?
Case 3: You can get very little xp before final battle. (small map)
You will have more primary skills than your oponent, but less other secondary skills.
Would you skip a level of Offense/Earth on a small map for 2 extra primary skillpoints?
If you take Learning later, it might be just 1 primary for 2 other secondaries, which is a not a good deal.
If you think that in some of those situations Learning would be OP, then what about +75% on Expert? Then you would practically never have more other Secondary Skillpoints than your oponent (and you may have less). Still OP?
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2014 03:53 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 16:59, 19 Feb 2014.
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hellburn said:
Experience table for Heroes 3, I've made. If anyone needs it (data taken directly from gameplay).
Thanks, hellburn. I only made a few comparisons, but your list seem to be accurate.
@Maciek
Maybe it wouldn't exactly be OP, but I'm honestly still not sure. Maybe somebody else can say something about it, though. But learning by itself or mixed with eagle eye doesn't need to be a must-have skill, as Storm-Giant also said - but hopefully it can be made useful/unique enough.
Btw, two of the eagle eye artefacts also implies intelligence/wisdom which relates to learning. If your English is not native then this might not be obvious.
Like,
Bird of Perception:
1. The act or faculty of perceiving, or apprehending by means of the senses or of the mind; cognition; understanding.
Emblem of Cognizance:
1. Conscious knowledge or recognition; awareness.
2. The range of what one can know or understand.
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blueskirt
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 19, 2014 05:32 PM |
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Regarding Learning, and those numbers you've thrown around, namely that even if you gain double experience starting from Level 3, at level 9, you get about three extra levels compared to someone without, so you gave up three secondary skill points in order to gain three measly and randomly chosen primary skill points. And this, only and only if you got Expert Learning as soon as possible during the training of your hero. That still doesn't cut it for me.
Here's an idea, why not cut the middle man. Screw the extra experience, why not instead have Learning give you extra primary skills right off the bat. That way, the skill is still useful for someone who master it at level 24. It'll also be easier to test and tweak and see the results if people think it's OP.
Regarding Eagle Eye, what if in addition to learning spells from encounters with enemy heroes, you could learn primary skills too, granted the enemy heroes are better than you are in the chosen skill? Wizard defeats barbarian, wizard learns a few tricks in attack and defense. Barbarian defeats wizard, barbarian learns a couple tricks in spell power and knowledge.
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted February 19, 2014 05:47 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 15:28, 21 Feb 2014.
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@blueskirt
About those numbers that I've been 'throwing around', as you so elegantly put it. At times, you'll actually have 4 primary skills and four (or two, if you will) secondary skills points more compared to the hero without learning because the hero with learning will also sometimes reach the next level before the other hero does, if I'm not wrong. Also, the levels from 2-9 are not just random, but random with a bias.
Like, for barbarians.
On levels 2-9, 55% attack, 35% defence, 5% spell power, 5% knowledge.
Also, levels affects speciality and allows you to visit the temple of enlightenment sooner.
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