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| Thread: What is freedom? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2014 12:51 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:53, 08 Jan 2014.
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What is freedom?
There are concepts in life that are used so frequently, we often forget to stop and think about what they actually mean. Freedom is such a concept. In these times, everybody seems to accept it is "something good" but really, how do you define freedom? Is the foundation of its limits purely sociological or can freedom be based on a metaphysical principle? Like many things abstract, freedom has many definitions, one I find quite interesting, for example, is that freedom is the consciousness of requirements, once you know oxygen is necessary to live, you become free to travel underwater or space. So, it's an expanding zone that progresses with positive knowledge. Another one is that freedom is the luxury of not feeling obligated to lie. If you can't be harmed by the truth, you are free. This one is also a fresh perspective because, by this criteria many men of power, politicians, kings, are simply far away from being free, since they have to at least "manage" the truth to be able to stay in power. Another Far-Eastern/Sufist approach is to cleanse yourself from desire, ambition and earthy belongings, surrendering yourself to the divine order of things to become free. (Just think of the famous line from the Fight Club, things you own begin to own you.) According to this, you don't fight, conqueror or purchase your rights but rather allow freedom to happen to you. Although, it usually presupposes a metaphysical dimension, this approach does not need to be strictly religious but then we have the advertiser informing the beatnik about the cold facts of life:
The universe is indifferent.
On the next scene, he is about to step out of the apartment. When
warned about the cops outside and told that he can't go out at the moment, Draper, in his expensive suit, simply replies:
-No, you can't.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 08, 2014 01:49 PM |
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Freedom is mastery or control of the fear of losing something.
Every human being in control of the fear of losing something - even their own life - is free.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2014 02:12 PM |
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So, is a kamikaze pilot free?
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted January 08, 2014 02:17 PM |
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we he voulnteraly sacrificed his life for his country. So he was free to choose.
Suicide bombers are also free to choose either.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2014 02:21 PM |
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You can also claim they are brainwashed (which would be the opposite of free) but that's beside the point. He may be free in taking that specific decision but is he a free man overall?
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 08, 2014 02:30 PM |
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"Freedom" is merely an illusion, meant to give us a sense of choice while being just another mean of mass control, none of us is "truly" free.
Unfortunately there are 30+mil amongst us who have it in the worst possible way, my heart gently weeps for modern day slaves who lack the basic freedom to simply be...
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Sandman
Known Hero
Fearsome Warrior
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posted January 08, 2014 02:32 PM |
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Freedom is an idea and something that is never truly achievable as none of us are totally free to do or say what we want as everything we do or say is governed by laws, either laws of justice or laws of physics for example. Therefore if you are restricted and can not do the things you want to do however silly or impossible they seem then you are not truly free. So freedom is also an illusion, however it all depends on what you perceive freedom to be, therefore one man may think he is free while another knows he is not.
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Hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted January 08, 2014 02:38 PM |
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Edited by Hippox89 at 19:06, 08 Jan 2014.
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Freedom is control/power over other people to do what you want.
If I have freedom to do something then it must also mean that others are refrained from that same freedom.
(This is of course a very narrow view. It's not a self sustaining concept by any means. It is, however, not untrue)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2014 02:40 PM |
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artu said:
So, is a kamikaze pilot free?
If you have no fear to lose something you are free, whether you BECOME a kamikaze pilot or a suicide bomber or a hermit.
If you are a suicide bomber because you have more fear to lose something else than your life - say, the life of your family - you are obviously not free.
However "being free" can be used any which way - having no fear to lose your freedom - by risking prison - may be used with "good" intention - for example, working in an underground in a totalitarian state - or with "bad" intention - for example, robbing banks.
That definition, by the way, is excluding the famous Janis Joplin quote, freedom is just another word for NOTHING LEFT TO lose, because that's kind of an enforced freedom.
Fear of any kind is the biggest inhibitor of freedom. Think of Agoraphobia - people suffering from that don't need a jailer to be unfree.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2014 02:45 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:47, 08 Jan 2014.
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@Smithey/Sandman
Well, the way I see it, if you think in absolute terms, you'll end up concluding it does not exist at all. A gradual approach like I mentioned in my main post, in a way overcomes that. Of course, there are still psychologists such as B.F. Skinner who suggests that ALL of our actions are responses to certain conditions (Behaviorism) and that the concept of choice is merely an illusion but that would mean assuming a flawless deterministic universe and total prediction. Skinner actually claimed that "in theory." To him, the only difference between his test subject pigeons and us was that our behavior had too many factors involved to make that calculation. This was a matter of quantity though, not quality.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2014 02:50 PM |
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there is really no such thing. everyone is a slave, even to their own bodies. eat and drink, or die. defecate, or die. piss, or die. it would really be nice to do away with these "interruptions".
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OhforfSake
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Initiate
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posted January 08, 2014 03:04 PM |
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Freedom, the ability to do.
Not to confuse with free will, the ability to choose.
Personal definitions 
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Living time backwards
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xerox
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posted January 08, 2014 05:14 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:21, 08 Jan 2014.
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Negative freedom: Your freedom from constraint.
Positive freedom: Your actual opportunities for self-realisation, that is pursuing your own ambitions and dreams. For example, living in extreme poverty you are theoratically not barred from buying a car if you want one, but your opportunity to do so in reality is actually quite small and that limits your positive freedom. Social mobility is related to this.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
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Scourge of God
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posted January 08, 2014 05:19 PM |
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Hippox89 said:
Freedom is control/power over other people to do what you want.
If I have freedom to do something then it must also mean that other are refrained from that same freedom.
(This is of course a very narrow view. It's not a self sustaining concept by any means. It is, however, not untrue)
It's true, a human can only be truly free on his own, but loneliness is not good (for a sane person), so the pursuing of total freedom is inane unless you want to dominate others, since your total freedom must override the freedoms of others. (but this so very rarely succeeds that I wouldn't put it as a viable way to be free) Hence why Ancient Egypt is so interesting, Pharaohs were considered as gods not because of some ignorant superstition, but because they were gods in a sense, they're total freedom wholly dominated their population.
A real communist society is when people choose and actually desire to give up their freedom for mutual gain and cooperation rather than it being forced on them.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
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posted January 08, 2014 06:53 PM |
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People, for a life form with the actual constraints there are it should be obvious that freedom is a state of MIND.
It's to mistake with living in a society that is organized in a certain way, that is, whether other people ADD to those constraints with more or less force or not.
It also has nothing to do with being able or allowed to buy this or that - that is on the contrary something that makes you unfree.
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mvassilev
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posted January 08, 2014 07:12 PM |
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Not being allowed to buy something makes you unfree, yes. As a rule of thumb.
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Eccentric Opinion
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted January 08, 2014 08:14 PM |
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artu said:
You can also claim they are brainwashed (which would be the opposite of free) but that's beside the point. He may be free in taking that specific decision but is he a free man overall?
Well, that is a good question.
I don't think they were brainwashed. In case of some suicide bombers it is not for the sake of terror acts, but for a little more. There were people that willingly sacrificed their lives as a desperate try to combat the Istrebiteli legioni and the NKVD apes in my country for example.
And the Iraqi ones. I don't know, perhaps they're doing the same bloody thing.
Also if you read on to other history records regarding Japan during WW2, you will see that there was even a mass producing of planes, boats and other crap just for Kamikazes. I think those soldiers didn't saw any other way so they decided to kill themselves and take as many of the yanks as possible. Remember that there's a thing to ritual suicide in Japan. The whole sepukku thing or whatever the damn thing's called.
So I'd say yes, in some cases they were free men.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted January 08, 2014 08:56 PM |
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Freedom is having control over yourself. In politics, this means trade, information, and expression. In psychology, this means mastery over yourself, as opposed to being enslaved by appetites or unmerited fears. In health, this likewise means mastery over yourself, as opposed to illness and feebleness.
Political freedom needs to be regulated somewhat, because one person's freedom can be directly responsible for another person's slavery. As with essential vitamins, it is toxic in large quantities.
Psychological and physiological freedom don't need to be; you can never have too much of it, and it does not interfere with other people's psychological and physiological freedom. Quite the opposite, it can enhance them (or, likewise, pull them down), seeing as how human beings are social creatures.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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OhforfSake
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Initiate
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posted January 08, 2014 08:59 PM |
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Don't listen to blizzard boy! He'll promise to set you free if you come down his basement, but you may never come up again, because he's not really a boy. It's not for nothing US is hit by a blizzard, you know..
No freedom is everything opposite of what b-boy tells you!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2014 09:36 PM |
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mvassilev said:
Not being allowed to buy something makes you unfree, yes. As a rule of thumb.
It doesn't. You can still buy it, if you want to. It's just a higher HURDLE.
Freedom isn't getting material stuff granted. If you feel unfree because you are not allowed to buy something you make your freedom DEPENDANT on something - say, a law.
That's pitiful.
And Blizzard is right on target.
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