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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2014 05:07 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
Fantastic news!
So no point in testing BS2 decks at the moment as 100 new cards will get added!
That creature does look like Orson!
Yeah and since we will get creature types in BS2 and we are most like going to see a lot of tribal decks(Fleshbane is the only one right now), Orson is like a perfect hero for it, since he was Zombie Lord in Heroes 5 and was buffing Zombies with every few levels.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted March 18, 2014 07:04 PM |
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Like I said on the last page, what makes you think that the open format will not change after 100 new cards? I think most will stick to open.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2014 07:34 PM |
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watcher83 said:
Like I said on the last page, what makes you think that the open format will not change after 100 new cards? I think most will stick to open.
Because open Format didn't change for the last 3(?!) expansions... You always see the same 5 - 10 decks on the top level, even if they change those decks a little with the new cards, they are basically the same decks.
If I recall correctly, Elvin managed to hit 1500 ELO with Sandalphon back in the Herald of the Void, Sandalphon was among the most popular decks in that set. Two expansions later, he is still one of the most popular decks, addition of some cards just made him stronger, but the type of the deck didn't change. And addition of those new cards didn't make some other heroes stronger, no, they just buffed up existing heroes so they could have even more different decks.
Back then, in the Herald of the Void, as top decks we had:
-Sandalphon aggro
-Nergal aggro
-Nergal slowpoke
-Garant rush
-Phrias rush
-Seria 4/4/3
-Ariana
-Fleshbane
-Adar-Malik 5/6/1
-Dhamiria fatties
-Dhamiria slowpoke
-Yukiko Lock
-Zardoc fatties
There are also other decks, I can't remember all of them.
Now, top decks changed from back then, but they are pretty much the same for last 2 expansions:
-Sandalphon aggro
-Sandalphon Lock
-Dhamiria Fatties/Jkkks
-Kelthor
-Adar-Malik 6/4/2
-Ishuma
-Cassandra
-Hakeem
It is basically one hero per faction that is really strong and others being a lot weaker, and if anything, new cards just buff those strong heroes even more than weaker heroes.
When I was playing swisses a lot, I pretty much always played Adar-Malik, since I was the most consistent with him, but I was experimenting with a lot of decks on the ladder, and it was mega fun. I stopped playing when I saw that in 30 games, I play only Cassandras, Sandalphons, Ishumas, Dhamirias and Crag Hack(that was so popular back then, it was the strongest Stronghold hero). Every game looked almost same to me, there were no variation from opponents on these decks, every deck was just copy paste from pro players. I had to play some of those decks if I wanted to win my games because you couldn't do it with just your random deck that you made for fun. And game just stopped being fun for me, and not just for me, for everyone else.
I remember that there were 10k players in Jackpot last few months when I was playing, now it is ~4k, a ton of people have stopped.
So to end this long post, open format could change, we could see something new and I really hope we do, but don't mind me being sceptical after seeing last three expansions.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted March 18, 2014 07:39 PM |
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Why not play open?
Ok watcher I'll tell you: Because Open at this time is boaring as hell. There are only very few decks in it, and I'm tired of facing the same Sandal/Kelthor/Gazal/Ishuma decks.
I want some diversity in my gameplay and the current meta does not provide this..
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted March 18, 2014 08:37 PM |
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Ofc the deck idea stays the same but twicks and minor changes always shift balance of power and make the game enjoyable it's like saying dota 2 is boring to play because although heroes get nerfed or buffed ocasionally they are still the same and the pro teams play 5-10 strategies all the time. Anyway it doesn't matter, it's just how I see things.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2014 09:20 PM |
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watcher83 said:
Ofc the deck idea stays the same but twicks and minor changes always shift balance of power and make the game enjoyable it's like saying dota 2 is boring to play because although heroes get nerfed or buffed ocasionally they are still the same and the pro teams play 5-10 strategies all the time. Anyway it doesn't matter, it's just how I see things.
That is a bad comparison, because there are many many variables in professional Dota 2, a lot more than in DoC.
Which heroes will be banned and why, which heroes will be picked and why, which items will those heroes get and why, where will they lane and against who will they lane, which player will be playing which hero because a lot of players have different play styles and a lot of time it depends on the enemy hero etc.
It is even harder to compare this because unlike DoC, DotA 2 isn't turn-based game, a lot of stuff will be different from game to game even if all 10 heroes are completely the same. In Dota 2 if hero is getting nerfed, he won't get "boring", he won't be picked anymore, but you have a choice of 100 heroes to make, there are a lot of heroes that can replace him. And beside all of that, Dota 2 is team game, you play with 4 friends against 5 guys, it is very different.
That said, you can compare Dota 2 with DoC. Imagine that you have a DotA 2 1v1 solo mid ladder, where out of all heroes, there are 10 heroes that dominate the game and are superior to the all other heroes, but those 10 heroes HAVE to play with the same items. Now, will you play your favorite heroes that are not among those 10 and of course keep losing and not have fun, or will you play just those 10 so you could actually win something on the ladder and again not have fun because you are bored to death?
That is how I felt playing DoC and the reason I stopped.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 18, 2014 09:36 PM |
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My Sandal was different, I did not use wombo like the cool kids 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted March 19, 2014 07:22 AM |
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I've been playing dota,hon & dota 2 for almost 7 years now (maybe 6) at a high enough level ( in hon for example before I gave my account to my nephew I was 1880 mmr) so I know what I'm saying, it's the plays and the players that make the game interesting because although minor changes happen often nothing has really changed strategy wise since 2009; so not the items or heroes but the plays themselves make the game genre an enduring one.
e.g. - the team with ophelia(chen in dota) will always do a time push, the team with lycan & prophet will always split push, the team with the late game will always find decent trades while the carry farms ( no matter if it's morphling/naga siren like in 2012 or if it's naix or alchemist like in 2013 or antimage who is always up there)
Ofc the dota genre ( I do not use the term moba because it was invented by LoL) is more appealing or more spectacular than a card game but a new set of cards will surely bring changes; I mean even in the last few months changes have appeared, just 2 months ago the only heroes in jp were Ishuma,Craggy, Dhamiria & Cassandra. Now thta's not the case, we have at least 4 or 5 hero decks more while Crag Hack is weak in jp nowadays.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted March 19, 2014 09:25 AM |
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Sorry Watcher, Open is going to be history.
BS2 is the way forward.
To move forward, one has to clean out the trash.
"One can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs".
Let's get DoC exciting again!
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted March 19, 2014 10:46 AM |
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If all the good players go to play standard I'll probably get the sickest win streak in DoC history
On a more serious note u say that cards like unique spells or tainted orcs are trash BUT new similar cards will take their place, u think they will be trash as well?
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 11:09 AM |
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watcher83 said:
I've been playing dota,hon & dota 2 for almost 7 years now (maybe 6) at a high enough level ( in hon for example before I gave my account to my nephew I was 1880 mmr) so I know what I'm saying, it's the plays and the players that make the game interesting because although minor changes happen often nothing has really changed strategy wise since 2009; so not the items or heroes but the plays themselves make the game genre an enduring one.
e.g. - the team with ophelia(chen in dota) will always do a time push, the team with lycan & prophet will always split push, the team with the late game will always find decent trades while the carry farms ( no matter if it's morphling/naga siren like in 2012 or if it's naix or alchemist like in 2013 or antimage who is always up there)
Ofc the dota genre ( I do not use the term moba because it was invented by LoL) is more appealing or more spectacular than a card game but a new set of cards will surely bring changes; I mean even in the last few months changes have appeared, just 2 months ago the only heroes in jp were Ishuma,Craggy, Dhamiria & Cassandra. Now thta's not the case, we have at least 4 or 5 hero decks more while Crag Hack is weak in jp nowadays.
We have 4-5 hero decks more, which is still like 10 hero decks less than what we had before on top level...
I agree with you that players makes the game, but it is still very different from game to game just because of what they are facing. They are choosing different builds/items/lanes/strategies even with same heroes. That rarely happens in DoC. You know what to expect in DoC the moment you face certain hero, and just because DotA is basically real-time game and not turn-based, you have to be prepared for the enemy every second, to have good reflexes and that is why we see so many good plays in DotA where both casters and viewers are impressed, and because of the teamplay. That stuff will never happen in DoC. You can be impressed by certain deck when you see it for the first time and that is it, next time you see it you know against what you are playing. Variations in DoC change very little, variations in DotA change a lot.
Chen will always do a timing push, unless he is warded/countered early in the game so he has to adjust his strategy, Lycan and Furion will try to split-push but will they manage to do it is another question, it is also very different if you are going for Necronomicon/Forcestaff with Furion and playing it just as split-pusher, or if you are going for Shadowblade/Hex/Orchid/Daedalus and play it as pusher that is also capable of being semi-carry, or even Meka and going a lot more often with your team. It changes your strategy a lot, even if the hero is the same and it changes how will enemy counter you.
And btw, I am playing Dota from 2005, watching competitive DotA from 2006 when the strongest and most popular teams were MYM and VP. Also played HoN on relatively high level, and now DotA 2 of course. Didn't attend many tournaments but I can say that I am pretty solid at this game and that I also know what I am talking about. 
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted March 20, 2014 01:12 PM |
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Ok so we both know our dota
Anyway to start a new topic to revitalise discussion I will do so by asking generic questions:
What deck do you think will do good in the standard format without taking into account the new cards?
Was there any anouncement in regards to a date where a presentation of the new cards will be done on stream?
Am I the only one who finds nowadays Sandal aggro weak when compared to Cassandra or even Alia not to mention the top decks (Gazal,Kelthor,Dhamiria, Garant gate etc.)?
Do you think the cyclops brawler will find its way into decks?
By the way, I just posted my main 6 decks as of now, with which I play in ladder an jp on mmdocking, just in case anybody is interested or cares to comment. ( nick name there is as in game Reg1nleif)
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted March 20, 2014 02:36 PM |
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Unless nagas get the short end of the stick and/or new cards will invalidate my strategy, my money's on Yukiko as the big bs2 winner. I have a nasty deck in mind
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Friend-shaped
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted March 20, 2014 03:33 PM |
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After many many test games played I have this to say this:
Necro: Will totaly overpower everything. Seria in the creature part, Ariana on the magic part.
Inferno: Dhamiria is a hard magic counter but fragiel when facing creature or balanced decks. Grant has his rush. Generaly they will not be that good
Sanctuary: Takane will have a good agro but Yukiko has the balance and is oneof the most verstail heroes, she will be imho the best sanc. hero, but not the best hero.
Stronghold: To many creatures so mostly only agro decks will be seen. Acamas will play the second game to Zordoc who will by one of the top heroes. (But I have almost no Exp. with BS2 stronghold)
Haven: Morgen will have one of the best creature decks, and he will be the best Haven hero imho, Alia coming in second.
Academy: Asalah magic combo and Myranda creature deck will be the top ones here. But I think this faction will be the most balanced one.
Heroes like Shalan or Ignatius need cards for their strategies to work at all. Heroes I have faith in are Flashbeen and Keiran.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 04:28 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
After many many test games played I have this to say this:
Necro: Will totaly overpower everything. Seria in the creature part, Ariana on the magic part.
Inferno: Dhamiria is a hard magic counter but fragiel when facing creature or balanced decks. Grant has his rush. Generaly they will not be that good
Sanctuary: Takane will have a good agro but Yukiko has the balance and is oneof the most verstail heroes, she will be imho the best sanc. hero, but not the best hero.
Stronghold: To many creatures so mostly only agro decks will be seen. Acamas will play the second game to Zordoc who will by one of the top heroes. (But I have almost no Exp. with BS2 stronghold)
Haven: Morgen will have one of the best creature decks, and he will be the best Haven hero imho, Alia coming in second.
Academy: Asalah magic combo and Myranda creature deck will be the top ones here. But I think this faction will be the most balanced one.
Heroes like Shalan or Ignatius need cards for their strategies to work at all. Heroes I have faith in are Flashbeen and Keiran.
It will be even harder to play with Fleshbane now when Banshee is 4/4. Maybe there will be some Fleshbane decks that are closer to 4/4/4 Seria decks with magic and other stuff. We will see.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying, but we got to have in mind that all of this is for now. Seeing picture of that Undead(I am like 90% sure that it is Orson from Heroes 5) I am pretty sure that new expansion is going to introduce new heroes, and even new fortunes/spells/creatures/buildings could change heroes for better or worse.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted March 20, 2014 07:39 PM |
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Speaking of spells why in hell would they take ALL the good fire spells, except for firebolt?
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 20, 2014 09:35 PM |
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watcher83 said:
Speaking of spells why in hell would they take ALL the good fire spells, except for firebolt?
Yeah I am not sure, I mean Fire was the most common spell school and it was among better schools for sure, but they should have left at least some good spells.
Maybe some of them will find their place.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted March 21, 2014 08:17 AM |
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I mean I'm not fond of standard format, but at least inner fire and mass inner fire could have stayed.
I have just 1 inner fire for lols in my Alia deck and 2 mass inner fires and they always get me wins by surprise.
+ if Kelthor was still around in standard cyclops brawler + inner fire would have been funny, add to that war tent and wtf. ( I know it wouldn't have been top competitive but that's not what the game should always be about - like one time I did a 44 damage with a pao with Asalah and yes I lost plenty of games before that but it was funny and worth it)
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted March 21, 2014 01:54 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 13:56, 21 Mar 2014.
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It seems there will be DoC box version available in some countries at 27th March (or maybe later, depended of HoN release date).
For 20 euro you will get:
- Alt Cassie,
- 6 base faction decks,
- a little gold, seals and 1x gold and XP boost.
- No, you won't get any real cards. 
Not a great offer for that price but if you a collector or new player, then I think this is something for you.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2014 02:34 PM |
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Avonu said:
It seems there will be DoC box version available in some countries at 27th March (or maybe later, depended of HoN release date).
For 20 euro you will get:
- Alt Cassie,
- 6 base faction decks,
- a little gold, seals and 1x gold and XP boost.
- No, you won't get any real cards.
Not a great offer for that price but if you a collector or new player, then I think this is something for you.
To be honest, I think this is quite cool. Yes, it may not be a great offer, but if some new players have the money why not? They will be able to try all of the factions quite fast without too much grinding or making new accounts.
This won't make some of the old people to stop playing, but can bring new people to the DoC.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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This thread is pages long: 
