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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 24, 2014 10:24 AM |
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Edited by Baklava at 10:32, 24 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
Svoboda glorifies Stepan Bandera.
Svoboda aside, didn't Yuschenko (the guy before Yanukovych) declare that guy a national hero in 2010?
A very telling political move. And timing, as well.
The situation is coming to a boiling point now that Montenegro, Albania and Liechtenstein have joined the sanctions against Russia. Economic pressure's going through the roof in this display of diplomatic tact and powerful independent thought from these geopolitical superpowers. The only hope for Putin now is that Serbia will endure in its decision not to invoke the sanctions, and thus prevent Russia's utter collapse with its $5 worth of trade in fruit and vegetables.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 10:31 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:35, 24 Mar 2014.
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Orzie, what are you trying to deny? That Russia broke treaties? Russia did it. By bilateral treaties, all the movements of black sea fleet should be confirmed with Ukrainian side
Unfortunately, it is still unclear whom to consider as the Ukrainian side as its legitimate government is gone. Maidan has weakened the country, and the vultures wouldn't wait.
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Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. The fact is 1 Ukrainian officer died of gunshot and 2 wounded.
And of course you don't mention the another dead from the other side. Sigh.
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I personally witnessed the events there and believe me, if Yanukovich hadn't ordered to disperse protesters on the night of November 30th, then there would have been no protesters at all 3 days later!
If the West didn't finance all this circus, there would have been no protesters at all - everything would end on a peaceful part. Did they produce something to maintain themselves for so long in such time of the year? Barely. Klitchko is a German project obviously.
The protesters must have been dispersed much earlier. Yanukovich also did many mistakes in the middle, provoking the people even more with his new anti-constitutionally created laws.
Several dozen thousands - it's a really, really small part of the population of the Ukraine. Imagining that this small bunch of protesters can change the turn of events in a big country without keeping in mind the aid from outside = nonsense.
And of course, the Olympics being held in the same time, the coincidence of the end of the Olympics and the end of the Yanukovitch's reign, the US Fleet 'defending their sportsmen on the Olympics' and many, many US statesmen politicians visiting Maidan publicly and personally - it's just a coincidence. Okay, you convinced me. Okay, Russia is the ultimate evil, the rest of the world is the ultimate good.
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Eventually it is a proven fact that Yanukovych is a criminal.
As every alive politician is. Honest politicians don't live for long or don't get too far in their career.
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And the new government did not brutally capture the power, they announced early elections. Seems fair, right?
No. The process of deposing the active president is constitutionally defined as being held via impeachment. Nothing like that happened.
You mix the democracy, 'the government of the people', and the anarchy, 'the government of the crowd'. I don't think the fact that you have seen the events of Maidan by your own eyes gives you the ultimate authority in this case, because it's still all about propaganda, public sentiment (being strongly influenced by a propaganda) and being the part of that crowd. You forget to think who can benefit.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 10:35 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 10:36, 24 Mar 2014.
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@Baklava
He did. But again, Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought for Ukraine, the country that we have now. They fought against both Soviet Union and Nazi Germany and during WW2 and after. He is a traitor from the Russian side, because he fought against Soviet Union, but it is now Ukraine and Ukrainians are to decide who is a hero on our land.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 10:53 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 10:54, 24 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
Unfortunately, it is still unclear whom to consider as the Ukrainian side as its legitimate government is gone. Maidan has weakened the country, and the vultures wouldn't wait.
And that's an excuse to break international laws? By Constitution Ukrainian Parliament is the only possible organ that can ask foreign country to send troops. Did they ask Russia to occupy Crimea?
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And of course you don't mention the another dead from the other side. Sigh.
Who is he by the way? And what did he do near Ukrainian military base?
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If the West didn't finance all this circus, there would have been no protesters at all - everything would end on a peaceful part. Did they produce something to maintain themselves for so long in such time of the year? Barely. Klitchko is a German project obviously.
Everything is false. So you think, West paid Ukrainian radicals, or prepared them? Why do you think the money is from West, there are many oligarchs here in Ukraine who were fed up with the old government. In adition there were a lot of initiatives on Facebook to support Maidan with money. I personally gave around 100$ and there were thousands like me. Saying that Klitchko is a German project without any facts is only demagogy.
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The protesters must have been dispersed much earlier.
Earlier than what? You know, peaceful demonstrations are guaranteed by Constituion.
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Several dozen thousands - it's a really, really small part of the population of the Ukraine. Imagining that this small bunch of protesters can change the turn of events in a big country without keeping in mind the aid from outside = nonsense.
That's why they demanded early elections, not to take power immediately. See the difference?
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You forget to think who can benefit.
Hmm, people of Ukraine are for sure will benefit without heavily corrupted and brutal Yanukovych. Didn't you think about that?
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 24, 2014 11:22 AM |
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Orzie said:
Quote:
did not hear anything about the new government investigating murders by the police or protesters
Of course. There is no need to investigate: The people of Maidan are now heroes regardless if they killed someone or not. The policemen are now all villains regardless if they killed someone or not.
History is written by victors.
"History is written by the victors"? It is not that simple anymore. They do not call this the "Information age" for nothing. Of course they are not going to investigate as they already knows who did what on both sides and it was a two sided conflict, not individual murders in peace time. And I doubt that outsiders would glorify the protesters as "heroes". Revolutionaries with a noble cause at best.
Zenofex said:
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did not hear anything about the new government investigating murders by the police or protesters. Not sure if I should have as it would be unnatural for the new government to seek justice for dead or wounded policemen when there was a violence against violence conflict, especially as the majority of the dead were on the new government side. I have not heard much about negotiating with or helping the new government but oviously a lot of concern for Russia's actions from politicians and experts. Not sure if I managed to answer your questions properly but I hope so.
So much for the "objectivity" then. In the leaked conversation it is mentioned that the policemen and the protesters might have been shot by the same snipers. Guess nobody bothered to mention that in the objective Swedish news though.
Conspiracy theories do not make it to swedish mainstream news... It is not impossible that I would have missed it as I do not check the news daily but mainstream media reports what is know to be going on. Not speculating or spreading rumours. I have seen a video with a police sniper firing shots and I find it hard to believe that such snipers could switch from side to side or fire at both without being noticed and brought to light. If the evidence for such snipers is fairly recent then it would not be strange if it is being overshadowed by Russia's invasion.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 11:26 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 11:34, 24 Mar 2014.
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And that's an excuse to break international laws? By Constitution Ukrainian Parliament is the only possible organ that can ask foreign country to send troops. Did they ask Russia to occupy Crimea?
Russia considers the current Ukrainian parliament as a non-legitimately formed administrative organ.
It serves as an excuse for Russia.
Actually, even if to count that everyone knows the truth, the threats and the actual sanctions against Russia are really feeble. This means that either this turn of events was predicted, or (due to conspirological theories) predefined by the big dudes.
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Who is he by the way? And what did he do near Ukrainian military base?
And who is that Ukrainian officer?
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Saying that Klitchko is a German project without any facts is only demagogy.
Watching Klitchko saying something to journalists is a true circus, also keeping in mind that he is a citizen of Germany and spends a real lot of his time there. He is not a politician. He is a marketing trick.
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Earlier than what? You know, peaceful demonstrations are guaranteed by Constituion.
If they don't break the law and are approved by the administration. In Russia such demonstration on the Red Square would be fastly wiped out.
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That's why they demanded early elections, not to take power immediately. See the difference?
They just waited until someone gives them a sign. And the sign was right after the Olympics ended.
Yanukovitch actually offered the prime minister seat to the opposition leaders before. But they refused.
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Hmm, people of Ukraine are for sure will benefit without heavily corrupted and brutal Yanukovych. Didn't you think about that?
Now let's see how the people of Ukraine will benefit from the new government who is:
a) no less thieves
b) the same oligarchs
c) pro-western and thus will force the integration with the EU, which is critical to Russia. The closer the Ukraine is to the EU, the worse will Russia try to spoil the blood of the Ukraine.
As a side note - You guys forget that EU is not going to solve your problems. It is going to solve ITS problems using you.
People are going to suffer the most from both sides, with their country suffering a bankruptcy thus selling itself to the EU and putting itself to the debentures. People are the ones who are the least cared about by the EU, the US and of course Russia.
People are the ones who benefit the least.
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I have seen a video with a police sniper firing shots
And I have seen a video showing several protesters firing shots.
Not even mentioning the good old spy trick with changeable outfits.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 24, 2014 11:39 AM |
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Orzie said:
Quote:
I have seen a video with a police sniper firing shots
And I have seen a video showing several protesters firing shots.
Not even mentioning the good old spy trick with changeable outfits.
The video had many heavily armed policemen in the background so I doubt it is fake. And some protesters using firearms against the police is well known but I have not heard of specifically snipers against the police before though it would only be natural as the most violent of the protesters had training and firearms, that they would snipe.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 11:40 AM |
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Quote:
Hey, I don't support Svoboda and Stepan Bandera is a very controversial person, but what are you trying to say? That he is a nazist? He spent several years in a jail in Germany. Of course there were some tragic events in Volyn region that you as Polish can't stand, but massive murders were from both sides. Eventually now Ukraine and Poland are not enemies, right? Also you have Pilsudski who is considered a hero in Poland, but we Ukrainians don't like him. And at the same time we accept that he fought for Poland, so it's okay. What I am trying to say, that we can determine by ourselves who is hero and who is criminal for Ukraine.
I'm not speaking as a Pole, because I'm cosmopolitan - and I hate my country, too. So there's not a hint of "national" tones in my posts. I don't give a damn if Bandera was Ukrainian, Moldavian, Russian or South African, or if Insurgent Army killed Poles, Eskimo or Martians. The undeniable fact however is that Insurgent Army commited unbearable crimes of torturing to death thousands of people, in the most wicked, twisted ways that make your stomach turn. Stuff like sawing a man in two, nailing newborns to trees or bonding one's entrails to a tree, those were ... sadly, according to historical data, those were standard. So sorry, you cannot go with national tunes here and glorify that organization, or I'll consider that you're too blinded by national themes to see the repulsive truth. Bandera created Insurgent Army, and Insurgent Army commited an atrocious genocide on 100.000 civilians. There's no room for "we can determine by ourselves here", those are historical facts - it's like Germans would say, hey, SS Dirlewanger burnt down a couple hundred children alive but we can still determine by ourselves if he's a criminal or hero.
Nope, it doesn't work that way.
Bandera was in jail when Insurgent Army started torturing thousands of people to death, but he's directly responsible for that organization and its standards.
Ukrainian Insurgent Army, for the mass murder of civilians in the most despicable ways, is a criminal organization in my opinion. And again, I don't care if it's Ukrainian or Eskimo - what matters is what they actually did. I'm surprised that we're in XXI century and we still face this crap - people not seeing good and evil, but "ours and theirs".
And Pilsudski was a dictator, and not some "great leader" as Poles like to picture it. National pride is a source of a lot of evil in the world, sadly.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 11:51 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 11:51, 24 Mar 2014.
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@Orzie
1) Russia does not say that Rada is illegitimate, they say it about acting president and prime-minister. Rada was elected in 2012 and still fully legitimate. So you are not correct with this one.
2) The name of the Ukrainian officer is Serhiy Kokurin, ethnic Russian by the way. You did not answer the question about the guy from the other side.
3) Klitchko is NOT a citizen of Germany, and he does not spend a lot of time there, since he started his political career. You are wrong again.
4) Justice does not work in Ukraine in the proper way and ALL the demonstrations were forbidden. People should be still allowed to peacefully protest. Constitution of Ukraine has higher legal status than any decision of Ukrainian corrupted court. Unfortunately the similar situation is in Russia.
5) Yanukovych did not want to make any changes. The proposed seat of prime-minister was a trap. The prime-minister had no leverages to change something as Yanukovych still wanted to control police and prosecution.
6) Your statements that people won't benefit are based on the thing that all politicians are the same. Well, that is not true. Yanukovych is very different. First of all he was a dictator by his nature. We're trying to be more democratic, right? Also did you see the photos of his house? Also since new government saw what happened to Yanukovych, they will be more careful with their actions. And I already mentioned in this thread, that several ministers in the new government (for example minister of economy) are really decent, and we have a hope for changes.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 24, 2014 12:06 PM |
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Baklava said:
Quote:
The situation is coming to a boiling point now that Montenegro, Albania and Liechtenstein have joined the sanctions against Russia. Economic pressure's going through the roof in this display of diplomatic tact and powerful independent thought from these geopolitical superpowers. The only hope for Putin now is that Serbia will endure in its decision not to invoke the sanctions, and thus prevent Russia's utter collapse with its $5 worth of trade in fruit and vegetables.
Yep, and with serbia's support, a very powerful and nuclear state, russia is going to dominate the visible cosmos and beyond.
Joking aside, serbia supports the "independence" of crimea, the irony is killing me.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 12:10 PM |
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@Doomforge
I can't debate with you on this as I am not well aware of what was done and why that was done. However Ukrainian Insurgent Army was not condemned as a criminal organization during Nurnberg process, right? It looks like there are some differences in what different historians say.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 12:14 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 12:15, 24 Mar 2014.
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@ihor
1) However you disregard the fact that currently Rada does not have the same people as in 2012 due to the wave of retirements.
2) Ruslan Kazakov.
3) Well, he just can live wherever he wants. It's kinda convenient when you can do this staying Ukrainian. And rare.
4) As for the demonstrations, situation in Russia is even worse.
5) The Prime Minister seat is capable of more than you think. And yes, it's no surprise that Yanukovitch is a pro-Russian president, and his course is defined. What reason for him would be to allow 'the new government' to change totally his course?
6) You forget that in this world there are alive dictators who are dictators much more. Let's not mention their names here, they have been already mentioned. Yanukovitch is a thief, a fool, a liar and a coward, probably instructed by Putin to behave like that. However, Ukraine had a chance to change its president in a democratic way. What happened instead is called anarchy.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 12:34 PM |
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ihor said:
@Doomforge
I can't debate with you on this as I am not well aware of what was done and why that was done. However Ukrainian Insurgent Army was not condemned as a criminal organization during Nurnberg process, right? It looks like there are some differences in what different historians say.
Nurnberg trials were aimed at Nazis only.
If you want to learn more without feeling sick, quoting wikipedia on this should be enough:
The atrocities were carried out indiscriminately and without restraint. The victims, regardless of their age or gender, were routinely tortured to death. Norman Davies in No Simple Victory gives a short, but shocking description of the massacres. He writes:
Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away. The perpetrators could not determine the province's future. But at least they could determine that it would be a future without Poles.[85]
An OUN order from early 1944 stated:
Liquidate all Polish traces. Destroy all walls in the Catholic Church and other Polish prayer houses. Destroy orchards and trees in the courtyards so that there will be no trace that someone lived there... Pay attention to the fact that when something remains that is Polish, then the Poles will have pretensions to our land".[11]
Timothy Snyder describes the murders: "Ukrainian partisans burned homes, shot or forced back inside those who tried to flee, and used sickles and pitchforks to kill those they captured outside. In some cases, beheaded, crucified, dismembered, or disemboweled bodies were displayed, in order to encourage remaining Poles to flee".[86] A similar account has been presented by Niall Ferguson, who wrote: "Whole villages were wiped out, men beaten to death, women raped and mutilated, babies bayoneted."[87] Ukrainian historian Yuryi Kirichuk described the conflict as similar to medieval rebellions
If you want to feel sick, there's a list of 150+ torture methods used by OUN-B on civilians. SOme of them... oh well. Don't read it.
No national pride should ever justify considering those criminals as worthy of any honors.
I'm not sure if modern Ukrainians (including Svoboda members) are actually aware of what some of their grandfathers actually did to people.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 24, 2014 12:54 PM |
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Speaking of horrific torture methods, this is what my ancestors did to german peasants, though quite some time ago...
Schwedentrunk
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 01:19 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 13:20, 24 Mar 2014.
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@ doomforge: every country has participated in torture or atrocity at some point or another, since time began, and will continue to do so, until human beings are wholly wiped out. the people who do it just get better at hiding it. there is no "this country that", and "that country this", that cannot be reflected back on itself. it is just a matter of degree, and circumstance.
i agree though, that nationalism is a great excuse, for both the human desire to destroy, and the gullibility of the general masses, by doing their "leaders" bidding without question. it sucks that countries cannot seem to help but run that way. 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 01:43 PM |
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fred79 said:
@ doomforge: every country has participated in torture or atrocity at some point or another, since time began, and will continue to do so, until human beings are wholly wiped out. the people who do it just get better at hiding it. there is no "this country that", and "that country this", that cannot be reflected back on itself. it is just a matter of degree, and circumstance.
Indeed. That's why I secretly wish nations will vanish one day and we'll just exist as humanity and not people branded by the place of birth, raised in brainwashing that makes them think people 100km from home are their "folk" and those 150km are their "enemy". Meh.
Still, a political group needs to acknowledge history, and that's what Svoboda isn't doing. And that's why I'm against it. Evil should be stigmatized, no matter what national flags it's been done under.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 24, 2014 05:10 PM |
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@Doomforge
One question, what is your opinion about Armija Krajowa? Is it a criminal organization or no?
@Orzie
Some of the things you say are correct, but I don't fully understand your position. In short, my opinion is that Russia stole a piece of Ukraine. You can reject this, but what do you think about:
1) Were there Russian troops without military tokens in Crimea or no?
2) What organs do you think are legitimate in Ukraine: parliament? president Yanukovych? new government?
3) Did Russia break the Budapest Memorandum or no?
4) Was there any oppression of Russians in Crimea or no?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 24, 2014 05:27 PM |
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Quote:
Conspiracy theories do not make it to swedish mainstream news... It is not impossible that I would have missed it as I do not check the news daily but mainstream media reports what is know to be going on. Not speculating or spreading rumours. I have seen a video with a police sniper firing shots and I find it hard to believe that such snipers could switch from side to side or fire at both without being noticed and brought to light. If the evidence for such snipers is fairly recent then it would not be strange if it is being overshadowed by Russia's invasion.
But GunFred, this conspiracy theory is extracted from an official conversation where on side you have... stand by... almost there... we have a winner, the EU de facto foreign minister Catherine Ashton! And the authenticity of the conversation is confirmed. Surely putting the entire blame on Russia is much easier, especially if you have only objective news sources like you do in Sweden but for some reason there are a few inconvenient questions left unanswered. But you probably don't know about them. 
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 24, 2014 06:26 PM |
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Obviously even we got different kind of medias but mainstream media tend to focus on the big picture rather than uncertainties and personal opinions. I have never heard of Russia being blamed for the snipers except perhaps in this thread or otherwise directly escalating the protests besides goading the old government on to show no tolerance. And when it comes to Crimea, Russia is undeniably the worst side.
If you have unanswered questions for me then feel free to repeat them and line them up like the guys above are doing so I can see them easily.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 24, 2014 06:50 PM |
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Well, it's interesting what is the "big picture" that the mainstream media focuses then. Maybe it's so big that some details - which can even be important - can't be seen? My point is that there are many types of manipulation and censorship, including some very subtle ones, and if you form a marginal opinion (like "Russia is the worst side...") based solely on what you see in the news, chances are your opinion is probably not very close to the reality. From your posts it seems that you haven't really researched anything below the very surface and you think that your media serves you only truths and doesn't spare anything about anyone. Caution is advised. We live in the information age but guess what - we also live in the disinformation age. Can't separate them, sorry.
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This thread is pages long: 
