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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 07:57 AM |
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Pretty sure Russia is involved in those riots. It cannot be another way.
However, I cannot predict the next actions of Russia - from my side, I think it's barely possible to drive armies into Ukraine, because it will be a direct intrusion (unlike Crimea where the Black Sea Navy was used as the platzdarm), and thus, the war.
Actually I have recently watched some videos from the Ukraine and realized that the propaganda inside the country is no less crap that outside it - people claim themselves enlightened telling that Russian nazis arrange riots on the East... Everything in one.
The language is Russian, but in general I can explain that this 92-year old granny is being verbally attacked by the idiots also accusing her of speaking Russian "You have lived here all your life and didn't learn Ukrainian! What a shame!" and "You are blinded by communist propaganda - now we know the truth and we are better than you!"
VIDEO
And yes, they tell that Bandera was a prisoner of war in German concentration camp. Hehe. Nice move - he really was, but there were some nasty details.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 13, 2014 08:31 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 08:32, 13 Apr 2014.
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ihor said: He used to be a right-wing activist, but that was so long time ago, that few people remember this. I heard that also, but I was too young in early 90s, so I don't remember. Last 10 or more years he was not in radical parties... Yuschenko's party, then Tymoshenko's...
It was not that long ago actually, if we take the Bandera worship into account. Different party, similar ideology. Didn't know that Yuschenko was on the same train though.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 09:04 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 09:11, 13 Apr 2014.
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So where was the propaganda? People express their own opinions. Did you know that Gubarev (self-claimed leader of Donetsk separatists, who is now in jail) was the member of RNE (http://pauluskp.livejournal.com/507320.html). It was said that this is ultra right russian organization.
Also I didn't hear on the video they say they are better, in fact they say "you can ask anybody here if they think they are better, and every sane will answer not better than others"
So please don't curve the reality. If you have something about propaganda on Ukraine's TV channels, please give us a link to the particular article.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 09:08 AM |
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@Zenofex
OK, so supporting Bandera makes him a criminal or what?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 13, 2014 09:26 AM |
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Supporting Hitler will not make you look like a non-Nazi. Support Nazi collaborators will not make you look like a guy that can be trusted by the descendants of people who suffered under the Nazi. That's the whole point. Get rid of these people and the protest in the east will lose all sorts of legitimacy. If you want confrontation though - by all means, keep them where they are, even give them more power.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 10:21 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 10:22, 13 Apr 2014.
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Did you see anyone in government supporting Hitler? Please, don't exaggarate. Supporting Bandera doesn't mean you are nazi.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 10:37 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:54, 13 Apr 2014.
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ihor said: So where was the propaganda? People express their own opinions. Did you know that Gubarev (self-claimed leader of Donetsk separatists, who is now in jail) was the member of RNE (http://pauluskp.livejournal.com/507320.html). It was said that this is ultra right russian organization.
Also I didn't hear on the video they say they are better, in fact they say "you can ask anybody here if they think they are better, and every sane will answer not better than others"
So please don't curve the reality. If you have something about propaganda on Ukraine's TV channels, please give us a link to the particular article.
Well, I wouldn't recommend you to orient on Live Journal or whatever blogs to claim information 100% waterproof. I can create a blog too and somehow my words will also become 100% truth for someone.
Also, both you and me understand that people who are shown in this video are telling bullsnow. I don't understand why you deny that they are brainwashed by Ukrainian propaganda and specific word of mouth. One more proof that the propaganda is polar and Everybody Lies (c)
The youngsters which behave really rude to the old woman say that 'you have lived for 92 years, and still you are stupid'. Watch somewhere around 1:00, probably. This is enough for me to make a conclusion that they position themselves better than her.
Actually, I would spit in the face of those youngsters for their rude behaviour towards the woman and bullsnow they talk. The Internet made us all more tolerant than we should be.
Not so long ago they all spoke Russian, and today they accuse that woman of speaking Russian in their presence (not learning Ukrainian). Hypocrite retards.
One good thing that is present since the USSR times - it's the esteem towards the older people.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 13, 2014 10:42 AM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 10:57, 13 Apr 2014.
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ihor said: Did you see anyone in government supporting Hitler? Please, don't exaggarate. Supporting Bandera doesn't mean you are nazi.
collaborating is just as bad. basically it should be treated as treason and should be punished by death. those who idolise collaborators are no good, and should not be in power.
Still if a full annexation would happen, all those now in power will be the first to bend the knee. being the turncloak basterds they are.
@Orzie: respect for elders is vanishing really fast.
but yea it was one of the good things in Soviet times, even noted in the constitution or something like that.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 11:02 AM |
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@Orzie
We are talking about propaganda, not about attitude towards seniors. You stated that Ukraine's propaganda is not less than Russia's. I would like you to prove that statement, because in my opinion those are not even comparable. There is a website gathering information about how Ukrainian and Russian media lies http://www.stopfake.org. The ratio between Russian and Ukrainian are around 20:1.
So please give me more examples of Ukraine's propaganda.
@Kip
1) OUN fought both against USSR and Nazi Germany.
2) Bandera was in Nazi jail.
Meanwhile, Ukraine's forces conduct an antiterrorist operation in Sloviansk today, it is reported two of the block-posts of separatists are destroyed now. The most interesting here is what will be Russia's reaction.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 13, 2014 11:06 AM |
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So what? it's simple, they were expandable, once they outlive their use, it's either a mass grave or the slammer.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 13, 2014 11:22 AM |
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ihor said: Did you see anyone in government supporting Hitler? Please, don't exaggarate. Supporting Bandera doesn't mean you are nazi.
Look, no matter how you put it, this guy was and is a very unacceptable figure for the Russian-speakers in Ukraine and people who hold him in high esteem are equally unacceptable. He was a Nazi collaborator before and after spending some time in jail. I don't think it's so hard to understand. Russia says "you have fascist radicals in your government who threaten our people", you say "Russia is responsible for the riots in the east" but don't address the accusations in the slightest, so Russia keeps using the same thing to empower its propaganda.
Also, I certainly don't support any kind of Russian intervention in Eastern Ukraine, this will be the borderline after which things will very quickly go to hell and not only Ukraine will suffer. But if your brave guys in charge of the situation decide to use brute force, they will be just as responsible for what will follow as the Russians.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 11:33 AM |
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All this stuff about fascists is just a trick for russians to have an excuse for their actions. If there were no "fascists", then there would be another non-sense. They could say that aliens captured power in Kyiv. So my opinion it is absolutely doesn't matter if Parubiy has that chair, or Turchynov or Yatseniuk. Russians just want their puppet new "Yanukovych", everyone else who is not under Russian control is indifferent for them.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 13, 2014 11:46 AM |
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Of course it's a trick to excuse their actions. What I'm asking all along is why do you help them with that trick? Why don't you ban the Right Sector? Why don't you take away the power positions that the far right holds at the moment? You really have nobody else to put there? I know that this is very unlikely to happen, given that people which will normally be considered dangerous nutjobs are now Maidan heroes and whatnot but their presence doesn't help you at all.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 12:01 PM |
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Why the Right Sector must be banned, there are no lawful grounds for this. We shouldn't act like Russia wants, its our house and we decide who to put on what position. IMHO Parubiy is not a bad candidate, he earned some trust during Maidan as commander of self-defense and is supported by Maidan. Apparently is is impossible to please everybody, but Parubiy is not considered as an annoying factor for East, just a regular officer in this government. I haven't heard anybody from East that they are dissappointed with the assignment of Parubiy.
They protest against the new government in general, not particular personalities.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 02:07 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 14:11, 13 Apr 2014.
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ihor said: @Orzie
We are talking about propaganda, not about attitude towards seniors. You stated that Ukraine's propaganda is not less than Russia's. I would like you to prove that statement, because in my opinion those are not even comparable. There is a website gathering information about how Ukrainian and Russian media lies http://www.stopfake.org. The ratio between Russian and Ukrainian are around 20:1.
So please give me more examples of Ukraine's propaganda.
Yes, I dare to say that Ukrainian mass media is no less crap than the Russian. Because I read and hear unbelievable things from people on VK who are 100% confident in the crap they say. Such conclusions cannot be made without a nicely done brainwash.
Many examples can be found on many Ukrainian news sites and on Youtube.
http://censor.net.ua/resonance/275494/natsionalnaya_ideya_rossii_fashizm_dokazano_reyitingom_putina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_7p6m72neE
http://ru.tsn.ua/politika/rossiyskie-okkupanty-vypolnili-obeschanie-putina-pryatatsya-za-zhenschin-i-detey-355794.html
There is a lot of this filth.
I especially love this one. 'The deputies of the Duma will prohibit sex for the Crimean citizens'
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 13, 2014 05:35 PM |
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something to cheer you up:
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 13, 2014 06:07 PM |
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Guys stop your RU propaganda. Its FSB is paying you?
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 13, 2014 06:36 PM |
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So it seems the junta grew some balls finally and will take a violent approach on the "big bad separatists". Let's just see how that'll turn out.
My prediction: a royale bloodbath.
here's a little vid on events in Kharkov, just your average executution street gang style.
And to think that the people only wanted early elections. but yanukovych's gruop and the junta were like two stubborn goats in a headlock. I hope you're happy you fat greedy snows.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2014 07:03 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 19:31, 13 Apr 2014.
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FSB sure is late with my payment.
Anyway elections won't solve anything without good candidates. It seems the favourite is Poroshenko. A man whom I know little off except that he is a fan of a swedish economist that "helped" the Russian economy during the early Jeltsin years. Back when it lost 10% gdp per year for 10 years.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 13, 2014 07:07 PM |
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BrennusWhiskey said: Guys stop your RU propaganda. Its FSB is paying you?
I am being paid by the Mossaad. Dont tell anyone!
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