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JollyJoker
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posted March 11, 2019 08:19 AM |
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What is supposed to mean, "the most successful civilization, ours"?
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Salamandre
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posted March 11, 2019 08:25 AM |
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it doesn't concern you, don't worry 
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JollyJoker
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posted March 11, 2019 09:01 AM |
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Well, that's a relief, actually.
Still, I'd rather be the judge of that myself, so a clarification of what do you mean with "successful civilization" and what do you consider as "our civilization" would be most welcome, so that the members of less successful ones, if any, can try to emulate it.
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AlHazin
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posted March 11, 2019 03:59 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What is supposed to mean, "the most successful civilization, ours"?
The meaning of the word has changed today. It expresses more "culture" than civilisation itself.
So, the western culture.
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artu
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posted March 11, 2019 07:10 PM |
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Salamandre said:
blizzardboy said:
Sounds a lot like Napoleon, who vocally expressed how he was chronically depressed and unhappy his entire life.
And so did Homer, Mozart, Beethoven, Goethe, Michelangelo, Dante, Van Gogh and the other 99,9% of visionaries who defined the spirituality at the foundation of the most successful ever civilization, ours.
Now, on a more serious note, I only wanted to say "a leader who fights for his people well being and does not plunder them so he can look virtuous at EU technocratic meetings". Like Macron for example, who invented the new art of taxation, strip people to bones then call them nationalists if they wake up.
You cherry-pick. Why is Homer “yours” and not “mine”. We drink wine by the same sea. Why is Beethoven “yours” and not JJ’s, because he listents to rock n roll, too? Why is “your” civilization is repsenented by the ones, ironically, who believed in universal values, and “mine” by working-class peasants and their localism?
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Salamandre
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posted March 11, 2019 08:20 PM |
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A civilization and a culture is not some technical device on how to do things. It is a mindset slowly produced by visionary people then endless sacrifices. So if you appreciate what they did and you feel your world is issued from the values they articulated, it is your civilization as well.
As for JJ not being "his", I was joking ofc. Actually I put Germany at the highest top of western spirituality, there is enough evidence for that.
I pass over the fact that he listens to crap music, nobody is perfect. He still has Bach flowing in his veins, he just doesn't know it.
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artu
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posted March 11, 2019 08:30 PM |
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Maybe, you focus too much on the sacrifice part, you tune like a Middle Eastern dictator to me. Maybe, the ones who have built the distinctincion about that, are the ones who go “this is how I think, so scew your sacrifice when I disagree.”
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Salamandre
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posted March 11, 2019 09:30 PM |
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Look, I have no interest on preaching which culture or civilization is the greatest and how they achieved it, as, to put it bluntly, to get that answer, all you have is to follow migrations fluxes, who goes and where - so there is not much to debate about unless you hate so much your culture that you gouge your own eyes in front of evidence.
BB said Napoleon was unhappy and depressed, which is often a leftist argument for psychoanalyzing the other and dismiss him as "ill". To which I replied with a list of names of people highly depressed or unhappy, yet they - and many others of that alloy - were the visionaries and the blacksmiths of an extremely successful culture. The argument that one must be reasonable and "happy" to be certain the history notes his name is null, it takes a lot of suffering and very high standards of happiness definition in order to see what most others can't. That doesn't say that everyone unhappy and depressed is some kind of genius, but that the majority of geniuses had so high standards of personal satisfaction and happiness that they struggled all their life to only approach such goal.
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artu
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posted March 11, 2019 09:41 PM |
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“Happiness” is a forever cheap shot, that I agree on. Our civilization is this set of great men is a cheap shot, too. Anyway, HC bores me lately, I think both you and blizz were much more interesting, when this place itself was more interesting. But I will never give up hope, you guys are like people from all over the world with brains.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 12, 2019 09:52 AM |
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There'd be a lot to say about this, but for one thing it's off-topic (politics in the U.S.), and for another I miss the time and the energy for a non-pathetic, reasonable, well-thought-out reply that would be more than a "bullsh!t".
Let it suffice that I disagree with the gist of everything you say, Salamandre, on a very deep and fundamental level, not because I wouldn't appreciate the artists, but because my view of what a civilization is, consists of and is based upon fundamentally differs from yours. All "art" is a product of the time it's produced in and can't really be undertood and appreciated outside of that context (typically, some of the things NOW considered paragons of art were frowned upon "then", for example). The main thing is, that "then" art/culture was the product of an elitist few FOR an elitist few (a mirror of the socio-economic realities), while art/culture NOW is the product of masses for masses - also a mirror of the socio-economic realities.
People IMmigrate into the socio-economic realities because they cater better to the MASSES (which is the interesting thing for them), while in the times of the artists you name people EMigrated (to the New World and the colonies, mostly) for exactly the same reasons).
If you look at Civilisations, don't look further than China. Five and half millennia and counting are a pretty successful career.
They also knew how to build a Wall, mind you.
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Salamandre
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posted March 12, 2019 03:02 PM |
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Defining which are best societies and cultures is not about bragging who is bigger, but what is good for mankind as a whole thus we need to preserve it, instead of constantly diluting or wasting because some people disconnected from their cultural roots are more vocal than others.
For you guys, there is no coincidence that all - without a single exception - societies through history organized themselves around the so called patriarchy, but instead is male oppression. Not a single second a bell will ring in your twisted mind that MAYBE conditions of life made that not mandatory but necessary over any other considerations, everywhere. Also there is no coincidence - for you again - that in western societies the deepest thinkers, geniuses and visionaries constantly showed up, at every century until now and probably another 20 centuries from now. When same pattern it constantly praised and developed, no matter the timeline, without gaps, delays or fumbling, there is no such nonsense as "artists are products of their time" but artists are the product of their civilization and culture, they are defined, feed by it then they bring it to life in return. Yet someone has to understand and be connected with art as spiritual heritage, but also as a condensations of successful traditions, to understand such basic concepts. Alas, not many here it seems.
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artu
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posted March 12, 2019 03:10 PM |
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When you’re out of your game you sound like it.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 12, 2019 04:07 PM |
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You know, Salamandre, your problem is that it's actually you who hates your culture - the one you live in. You love some cultural heritage you embrace and with that you live in some glorified past.
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AlHazin
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posted March 12, 2019 06:47 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Also there is no coincidence that in western societies the deepest thinkers, geniuses and visionaries constantly showed up, at every century until now and probably another 20 centuries from now.
Blatant lie or deep ignorance.
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Salamandre
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posted March 13, 2019 12:53 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You know, Salamandre, your problem is that it's actually you who hates your culture
Hate, love, what that ever means nowadays. For one who was born in communist country and got out from that misery by himself, I have a great respect for people who were able to build better societies, where everybody, from everywhere, wishes to live. There is a difference between criticizing and aiming to even better - which I fully support, and constant bashing of everything that gave you all those rights you enjoy but too obtuse to see where they come from.
Al Hazin, chill man, don't be ridiculous. Do you ever walk in a museum or a library?
I am not saying there were no thinkers or artists in every culture - of course they were, I said that one culture specifically created a great profusion of prominent thinkers, philosophers, writers, painters etc, and that constantly, without timeline gaps. So look at that effervescence, then look at the societies which resulted from that specific mindset, then connect the dots instead of being childishly egocentric are deny the elephant in the room.
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blob2
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posted March 13, 2019 01:00 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:06, 13 Mar 2019.
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Well you know Sal, for instance Arabs also produced a lot of thinkers back in their prime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world, some of it being fundamentals for European thinkers later on. I think they were pretty much ahead then. It's a shame many Arab or islamic countries suffer from religious zealots nowadays... but I understand your view, especially the "get out from communism part". Western countries built great societies which are starting to crumble.
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blizzardboy
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posted March 13, 2019 01:28 PM |
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Why some civilizations are more 'successful' than others is a complex subject but you guys should all read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" for a pretty thorough explanation of how the civilizations in Eurasia became super advanced compared to the Americas or Australia or tropical areas.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 13, 2019 01:28 PM |
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Salamandre, it's obvious that you have no understanding of history and historical causes and effects.
With a view on the present, it's fairly obvious that we are both critisizing PARTS of the societies we live in, but CONTRARY parts.
Quote:
There is a difference between criticizing and aiming to even better - which I fully support, and constant bashing of everything that gave you all those rights you enjoy but too obtuse to see where they come from.
You are not even seeing that it is YOU who does the bashing of everything, while I am pretty supportive of everything that gave us all the rights. I am SUPPORTIVE of the EC, for example, I was supportive of Merkel's way to deal with the refugees, I am supportive with equal rights movements and so on.
You? Constantly bashing on everything, from refugees to women to contemporary culture.
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blob2
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posted March 13, 2019 01:42 PM |
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Lol, you guys are sooo wrong...
There is only one explanation for everything!
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blizzardboy
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posted March 13, 2019 01:58 PM |
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With the exception of the United States of America, which became the greatest nation in the world (and probably the universe) through our sophisticated education, diet, and superior language skills, places became more or less successful through a combination of circumstances, the main ones being:
1) Access to grains
2) Access to horses
3) A horizontal trade route (vs a vertical trade route, where you cannot easily transfer and spread crops)
4) Germs
5) Temperate climates, or close to temperate climates (subarctic and subtropical also work fine).
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