|
| Thread: Conscription |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
posted August 05, 2014 10:08 AM |
|
|
Conscription
Does your country have compulsory military service? If so do you support it? If you support it, don't you think it's discriminative to make it mandatory for one gender only, do you think that is a practice based on biology or tradition? Does modern warfare really require infantry masses, cannon fodder etc etc to win battles?
What is the practical, ethical and legal aspects of compulsory military service? What is your opinion on conscientious objection?
My thoughts in general, as a starter: On a purely, theoretical basis, the state should not posses the authority to draft you. It violates almost every right I can think of. Besides, even in practical terms, wars are no more about thousands of soldiers marching into each other on battlefields, they rely on efficient technology and specialized forces. Of course, having a professional army (with wages good enough to attract enlisters) may be an issue for poor states though, you have that.
I also remember reading an article by Chomsky, suggesting that military consisting of "normal" drafted men will act much more merciful and moral in situations of treating prisoners or invaded civilians humane or avoiding unnecessary bloodshed, compared to professionals who are trained to kill and have done nothing else in their life. Living in a country with conscription, witnessing a civil war as a teenager and having heard many stories from the field, I can say that with proper propaganda and a small period of brainwashing, you can usually turn regular men as vicious as professionals. So, it's not something I exactly agree with.
I personally paid a fee NOT TO go through military service and support a professional army.
|
|
kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 10:35 AM |
|
|
our ragdoll military is certainly discriminating against women.
there are no separate showers for example.
another fine example is one certain major who says that the lasses who come to the volunteer service comes here only to look at naked men. mind you the dude was made fun of and mocked by the female soldiers during his tour in Afghanistan.
Also discrimination against young people who's fathers served in the USSR military during the Afghan war in the eighties.
other issues that Lithuania's ragdoll mary guard is having:
instructors with mental conditions, such as stuttering, amongst other things.
old swedish AK-4(a H&K G3 variant) rifles which you can barely disassemble, and that poses a threat of serious personal injury or even death if the gun explodes in your hands.
malnourishment. We're talking about volunteer service, not spec ops training. with all the marching and crap you have to maintain your energy levels. food stuff such as dark bread and eggs is scarce.
uniforms. a disgrace the uniforms are old and nearly decaying, and the soldiers look a lot like ragdolls in them. really pathetic to look at.
Even though I support professional troops, I personally think that every citizen should at least passed the basic training courses and should know how to handle a firearm in combat situations.
even in the old USSR there was a class in schools for older kids on how to handle firearms and such.
But given the very strict gun control laws here, doing so today is impossible. unless it's with airsoft guns.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 11:02 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 15:10, 05 Aug 2014.
|
|
Well, I wouldnt have mind a month of service teaching me the basics as you say, I would have even looked at it as a different experience and an opportunity to learn new things. But it's 18 months for high-school graduates, 7 months/18 months as an officer for university graduates, here. Sleeping in a barracks for 7/18 months with 30+ people with all that snoring and smell, waking up at 6.30 every morning, being forced into labor such as cleaning toilets or peeling potatoes for hours etc etc. All those little things combined makes it the perfect nightmare for me, I am very fond of my solitude and private space.
|
|
Sal
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 11:16 AM |
|
|
Modern wars are done underground nowadays. Require great intelligentsia for the communication and manipulation, skilled secret services, trained spies and such.
The puppet soldiers still used are only to lure people being taxed for, but in reality all is planned and pre-determined in the politic crystal balls. If we talk about real wars, not third world African skirmish/brutal genocides. Take for example Israel-Palestine, all is manipulation and psychological framing, very little to nothing is actually decided on the ground.
IMO a much more appropriate conscription would require to introduce the recruits to computer languages, war sciences, bluff art, how to create economical chokes and so on.
300 Spartans vs 1 million Persians is the past now.
|
|
orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 11:42 AM |
|
|
Heh, I thought only we do have the obligatory military service for men. When I was eighteen, it was already decreased to 1 year (from two years which were before), but still it was a very non-desired stuff.
My observations + asking some of my friends who went through it show that this necessary military service gives you practically nothing positive (except a higher chance to be employed in police, security organisations and all that), but a number of negative things like risking your life because of bad equipment like Kip said, or because of the oppression by seasoned soldiers (we have it widely spread and it is a self-supporting system).
In fact, there is really no sense in constant potato peeling, toilet cleaning and building the colonel's countryhouse. However, every soldier had to do it. The conditions may vary, but regardless, the shooting and other techniques are not mastered well through all this time. Moreover, this does not raise the overall strength of the military because 99% of the recruits do not tend to stay in the military after the service ends. Also, it is used for manipulating people in the society - "you did not serve - you suck".
So in general, I don't see the reason in this so-called "gap year" when you lose your educational practice and lose the whole year doing practically nothing. It is really hard to recover the sharpness of mind after that, and return to colloidal chemistry. That is why we mostly don't care if someone calls us non-patriotic (because it's true lol) and usually seek for any way suitable to avoid the service.
We also have a proverb saying "Everyone is afraid of Russian military. Especially men aged from 18 to 27". I think it's self descriptive.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 12:56 PM |
|
|
Here in Spain we had it until 15-20 years ago.
I fully agree with artu here. 1-3 months of training wouldn't be bad, but losing 1-2 full years is a big NO. Specially in countries with bad equipment (like Kip example).
Sal said:
300 Spartans vs 1 million Persians is the past now.
A past you like to give live from time to time 
____________
|
|
kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 01:23 PM |
|
|
Lithuania had abolished conscription a few years back. the thing closest to that is the volunteer service.
other things that the mentioned service does not have is things like bulletproof vests and similiar tactical gear.
so it really sucks to go and join our ragdoll Mary guard right now. my now deceased friend who was in special forces urged me not to join in.
the more crap I see like this, the more I think that he's right.
also, did you guys ever heard about mobilisation in peaceful times? thats what my goverment morons intend to do and fight imaginary bloodthirsty rooskies.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 02:05 PM |
|
|
In the age of mutually assured destruction, what do armies matter? They only seem to matter if you want to occupy a place where you won't get mutually destroyed back. If we want to occupy these places, we're conquerors and then professional armies and tactical air/ drone strikes serve much the same purpose without endangering its citizens.
Either way, guys, war sucks and wars of aggression are always wrong.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
kayna
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 02:08 PM |
|
|
|
Conscription means that every country has forced military service. You think your country is free from military service? You think you're free? Nope. With just an official paper signed by whoever leads your government, you can be conscripted, and it can happen in any country in the world.
|
|
orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 02:46 PM |
|
|
DagothGares said:
In the age of mutually assured destruction, what do armies matter?
Say this to the US and their military contingent
Well, I would also have no idea what job would they find for 1.5 millions of unemployed military personnel.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 02:48 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 14:49, 05 Aug 2014.
|
@kayna
Yes but living in a country that would only do that under very extraordinary circumstances and living in one where it's routine practice and traditional law is not the same.
|
|
kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 02:57 PM |
|
|
orzie said:
Well, I would also have no idea what job would they find for 1.5 millions of unemployed military personnel.
club and bar bouncers.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 04:20 PM |
|
|
Yes. No. Yes. Yes.
Cheap and large military. You need a large infantry force to pacify territory in a war.
It also wastes a year of people's life. Or two. That's a LOT of money down the drain.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 05:36 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 17:36, 05 Aug 2014.
|
JoonasTo said:
You need a large infantry force to pacify territory in a war.
That's actually a good point but since you dont support compulsory service yourself, what exactly is your solution then?
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 06:00 PM |
|
|
Not conquering land?
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 06:14 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 18:14, 05 Aug 2014.
|
|
What if you are the one being conquered? But that's what they always say, isnt it...
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 06:32 PM |
|
|
Well, when you're being conquered, you don't need to pacify land, I think. When you're being conquered you don't need an army of foot soldiers, you need a nuclear deterrent. You can also be at the mercy of othe rpeople who have it regardless, no matter how big your army of foot soldiers is.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 06:45 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 19:27, 05 Aug 2014.
|
|
You do, if you are trying to take the land back. And take the nukes out of the equation, they will always be a last resort, nobody will use them unless they absolutely have to or you have some mad dictator of some sort.
|
|
xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 09:06 PM |
|
Edited by xerox at 22:38, 05 Aug 2014.
|
I don't like slavery. Especially when it involves dying for the government.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 05, 2014 09:53 PM |
|
|
|
You either need a comma or removal of "not" there, Xerox, it reads the oppossite of what you mean.
|
|
|
|
