|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
posted September 16, 2015 11:00 AM |
|
Edited by Pawek_13 at 11:05, 16 Sep 2015.
|
Avonu said:
Pawek_13 said:
There are 4 heroes per each Hall of Heroes and exactly one of these will be a hero of a faction that the player plays with.
In pre-release game version, which was showed to/played by visiting press (it was different then beta 2) there were 2 faction heroes in Tavern... or maybe I was lucky.
Oh, really? Well, in Beta 2 there were 4 heroes. Since the build from M&M days in Bochnia was more up-to-date, it seems that they decided to come back to the old number.
EnergyZ said:
Is that info credible? As in there is no doubt not a single detail is false?
And, uh, how is that even possible? There are no demonic troops in H7, aside neutral ones.
Raksha can use a mixture of Academy and Inferno units (like Faiz in Arantir's campaign.) This info was extracted by Avonu from Beta files, so I believe it is credible. Look at the Lore thread, here are nearly allthe information about Heroes VII scenarios and campaigns.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 11:03 AM |
|
|
@ TD
Most unique abilities are total crap and never used in multiplayer except dwarven formation, swift gating. For example Gate Master is also good but you can`t take morale as a skill because you have to take other more viable skills. All in all there are many good abilities coming from absurd skills so you can`t use synergies to their full potential. Retribution was very hard to get. Ultimates were possible only with memory mentor or extreme luck..
It is very restrictive actually and one could never get what really is needed . One game couldn`t get Master of Wrath and had hard time fighting final battle. What a crap...
The random system was not controllable .. I don`t see it good when two equal players fight on a small map and it matters who gets warpath first. Excuse me but it was total bullsnow. Or I can`t get freaking tent level after level for no reason.
|
|
cleglaw
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 11:20 AM |
|
Edited by cleglaw at 11:25, 16 Sep 2015.
|
former HC members, do you realise that i dont get myself involved with current discussion of yours? thats because im super annoyed by seeing same h7 bashing fashion again and again. its meaningless to praise h5 system and do the exact opposite for h7. its a fanatical act. anyways...
EnergyZ said:
Avonu said:
spoiler!!!
Solmyr the Djinn Lord will be fighting against Raksha the H3's Efreet Demoniac Efreet Chaos Lord (former Wizard) to rescue his sister Nur.
"565 YSD: The powerful Djinn Solmyr sets out to find the lost Tower of the Efreet, hoping to discover the fate that befell his sister Nur."
/spoiler
Is that info credible? As in there is no doubt not a single detail is false?
And, uh, how is that even possible? There are no demonic troops in H7, aside neutral ones.
demons are not really bound to sheog, not all of them anyway. powerful ones can consume crystals and remain, hide in ashans dark corners after even an eclipse end.
this was hinted back when vote between dungeon and inferno going on. first we get the explenation and a satisfying reply to our desire: if inferno gets chosen, it wont be about a blood eclipse again. then a second reply in later days stated that thing about breaking the bounds and remaining in ashan and how it can be possible.
about that hero portrait, if i remember right, was just found with datamining along with other bunch of heroes, so its credible. 
@jhb
thanks dude.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 11:24 AM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 16 Sep 2015. |
Edited by Maurice at 11:34, 16 Sep 2015.
|
Basically, it's the following set of schemes.
Heroes 5
- 11 generic skills, of which the Hero could get 5;
- 1 faction specific skill;
- Only 1 Hero class per faction;
- No skills beyond reach of any Hero, besides the faction skills of other factions;
- Skills could all be developed to Tier 3;
- Cross-skill requirements for a certain set of perks;
- Faction-specific perks;
- Skills were offered through a restricted random system (i.e. restricted as in 1 new skill and 1 existing skill upgrade for the most part and offer chances were per skill faction dependent);
The development scheme per skill was pretty much as follows:
Tier 1 --> allows up to 1 Perk at Tier 1
|
|/
Tier 2 --> allows up to 2 Perks within Tier 1 and Tier 2
|
|/
Tier 3 --> allows up to 3 Perks
Heroes 6
- 5 Generic Might skills (Paragon, Realm, Tactics, Warfare, Warcries);
- Available Magic skills were faction dependent:
--- Necropolis (5): Air, Earth, Water, Dark, Prime
--- Haven (5): Air, Fire, Earth, Light, Prime
--- Sanctuary (5): Air, Earth, Water, Light, Prime
--- Inferno (5): Air, Fire, Earth, Dark, Prime
--- Stronghold (6): Air, Fire, Earth, Water, Dark, Light
--- Dungeon (5): Fire, Earth, Water, Dark, Prime
- 1 faction specific skill;
- 2 Hero classes per faction, 1 Might and 1 Magic. Hero class determined maximum rank for either skill set (Tier 3 for matching skill set, Tier 2 for the other skill set);
- No Perks;
- Skills could be freely chosen;
The development scheme per skill was pretty much as follows:
Tier 1
|
|/
Tier 2
|
|/
Tier 3 (but only for those skills that are in the skillset matching the Hero class)
Heroes 7
- No Generic skills, all skills are Hero class dependent and locked in 10 pre-defined skills for that class;
- 6 Hero classes per faction;
- Even within a faction, the only generic skill is the faction skill;
- No cross-skill Perk requirements;
- Skill level caps depend on Hero class (3 skills to Tier 4, 3 skills to Tier 3, 4 skills to Tier 2);
- - Skills can be freely chosen;
The development scheme per skill is pretty much as follows:
Tier 1 --> allows up to 3 Tier 1 Perks
|
|/
Perk 1 (from Tier 1)
|
|/
Tier 2 --> allows up to 5 Perks within Tier 1 and 2
|
|/
Perk 2 (from Tier 1 or 2)
| (only for M skills)
|/
Tier 3 --> allows up to 6 Perks within Tier 1, 2 and 3
|
|/
Perk 3 (from Tier 1, 2 or 3)
| (only for GM skills)
|/
Tier 4
While Heroes 7 features a "random" skill option, it has a few major drawbacks that set it really apart from the one in Heroes 5:
- It does not provide the chance for any skills beyond the ones pre-defined in the skillwheel of the Hero class to begin with;
- A maximum of 5 of those 10 skills can ever be developed;
- With the "skill-perk-skill" setup, developing skills and perks is far more confined and restricted;
As can be seen from the above, the Heroes 7 setup has in its basis elements of both Heroes 5 and Heroes 6. However, I can't help but think about that armored vehicle that was develop during WW2, having both wheels (at the front) and tracks (at the rear) with the idea that it would incorporate the best of both worlds - only to yield something that didn't work really well in either environment where wheels or tracks by themselves were more useful.
The presence of pre-defined Hero Classes necessitates the differentiation to the skillwheels, predefined skill sets that belong to that particular Hero class. This is the reverse of Heroes 4, where the chosen set of skills would define the Hero class instead.
It's the first time in the Heroes franchise that they refined the difference between Heroes beyond mere Might and Magic. The effect is, as Dave indicated, quite similar to the introduction of various classes in many other games, most notably RPGs. A rather valid question is whether or not RPG elements down to this refinement have a place in a TBS game like Heroes. This is something that Alcibiades argues against and quite frankly, I am siding with him on that particular issue. Note also that while Heroes 5 offered access to the full range of Skills (minus the faction Skills), Heroes 6 limited Skills in the Magic department based on faction, just like Heroes 7 is limiting Skills.
At the same time, Dave is argueing that the skill development scheme is quite similar to Heroes 5, since both systems also use Perks and the number of Perks depend on Skill Tier. Yet, as Alcibiades points out, skills in Heroes 7 are capped at various Tiers, something similar to Heroes 6, while Heroes 5 allowed full development of all chosen skills. Heroes 5's system is also somewhat more flexible, as you don't need any Perks to develop Skills to Tier 3. This restriction, too, seems to stem from a more RPG-esque design than of a TBS design.
To me, it seems Alcibiades is mostly argueing against the RPG design that has been embedded within the Heroes 7 Hero Class and Skill design, which was much more prevalent in Heroes 6 than in Heroes 5, while Dave is mostly argueing in favor of the Skills and Perks design that shares far more similarities with Heroes 5 than Heroes 6.
Personally, I am more siding with Alcibiades' point of view, since I don't think RPG elements should have such weight in games like these. It's a TBS wargame, not an RPG, after all.
|
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 11:35 AM |
|
|
@natalka
Just how bad player are you? You can get ultimates in almost every game... I play hotseat with my friends and most of the time I go for ultimates and I can't even remember when I couldn't get one when I tried(and no I didn't need memory mentor). Even some of my friends who aren't that great players get them. It's very simple to control the skills you get. If you talk about short term getting single specific ability like warpath, then you probably should take hero who start with that skill like rutger to ease up getting it. I don't personally even play small maps, but getting abilities you want is simply game of playing the odds in which you can manipulate the odds. In general I get all skills and abilities that I want to my hero. The order does change, but outcome not so much usually. I do remember few years back I just had terrible luck and had to change my whole hero-build essentially, but I find that very rare. More likely you will get your ultimate-ability and the extra two skills maybe something different than what was the original plan. I can't even fathom how you find retribution as hard to get ability. Tell me what team do you want it with?
And you do know heroes is actually for majority of players a single-player game? As I recall marzhin told there was a poll which was 80% for single-player and only 20% for multiplayer. Should that 80% really have things done at the mercy of that remaining 20%?
And unique abilities useless? I use them A LOT. Only ones I find rather useless are add +2 stat and have whatever creatures join you. In general I find the unique abilities better than the common ones.
|
|
keldaur
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 11:50 AM |
|
|
That's why they really need to get a decent AI working.
____________
|
|
Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 11:54 AM |
|
Edited by Avonu at 12:01, 16 Sep 2015.
|
Pawek_13 said:
Oh, really? Well, in Beta 2 there were 4 heroes. Since the build from M&M days in Bochnia was more up-to-date, it seems that they decided to come back to the old number.
There were still 4 heroes in Tavern but 2 of them where from my faction. As I said, maybe I was lucky.
EnergyZ said:
Is that info credible? As in there is no doubt not a single detail is false?
And, uh, how is that even possible? There are no demonic troops in H7, aside neutral ones.
As much credible as they can be - they are from beta files - so maybe there are not up to date but this text was taken from Solmyr's map.
And Raksha is not only demon hero in H7.
As for how it can be possible - demons can survive by hosting mortal bodies, use powerful artifacts, consume large amount of Dragonblood Crystal or being summoned by a powerful Wizard (which raksha seems to be) to stay on the Ashan's surface. Not to mention that Incubi and Succubi, being former Asha's children, can live on Ashan without much trouble.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 11:57 AM |
|
|
natalka said:
@ TD
Most unique abilities are total crap and never used in multiplayer except dwarven formation, swift gating. For example Gate Master is also good but you can`t take morale as a skill because you have to take other more viable skills. All in all there are many good abilities coming from absurd skills so you can`t use synergies to their full potential. Retribution was very hard to get. Ultimates were possible only with memory mentor or extreme luck..
It is very restrictive actually and one could never get what really is needed . One game couldn`t get Master of Wrath and had hard time fighting final battle. What a crap...
The random system was not controllable .. I don`t see it good when two equal players fight on a small map and it matters who gets warpath first. Excuse me but it was total bullsnow. Or I can`t get freaking tent level after level for no reason.
Yeah, many don't share your view about that.
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:00 PM |
|
|
Avonu said:
Pawek_13 said:
Oh, really? Well, in Beta 2 there were 4 heroes. Since the build from M&M days in Bochnia was more up-to-date, it seems that they decided to come back to the old number.
There were still 4 heroes in Tavern but 2 of them where from my faction. As I said, maybe I was lucky.
I haven't noticed the word faction between "2" and "heroes." 
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:11 PM |
|
Edited by natalka at 12:19, 16 Sep 2015.
|
oh I am very bad player finished at 3rd place in ranking pts. in H5 TOH season 2. I don`t play with choosing heroes and in multiplayer for 200+ games against top ranked players I have seen only 3 ultimates(one of them was with mentor) but moreover I have never seen retribution and many times missing essential skills - like you have slow and you don`t have mass slow perk which is a game breaker. All those players were screwed by the system. In single and hotseat it is easier to get the skills don`t know why though.
About ultimates in multiplayer the problem actually is that ultimates need perks/skills which are crap. Barbarians can`t creep without tent/ballista, wizard has to pick warmachines ..wtf, why the hell runemage would need summoning in their arsenal to get ultimate, necromancers lose mass slow which for me is superior to their ultimate.
I am glad the randomness got away. In heroes V random guild was also a problem but now more spells are viable so one can make use of the guild without sacrificing too much.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:15 PM |
|
|
@ Maurice specifically, but to all in general.
When comparing the systems you miss a very important point with high impact:
In HoMM 5, ability picks are limited to 3 for each skill. This is extremely important, because it means, you can chose from all, but each picks also means not picking something else.
In HoMM 7 it's just the other way round. When you start, things have already been picked for you, but within these predefined boundaries your only restriction is the total level cap and the available abilities.
Of course everyone has a right on his own opinions and likings, but when push comes to shove I find the HoMM 7 way comparatively boring, and not because of the free pick (that has its merits when you go random mage guilds and tons of magic schools, but as it is, MGs are not random and you don't have 7 magic schools at all: try to find a Haven hero being able to use Earth spells, and then add the fact they cannot even LEARN Dark spells, and suddenly, it's WTF, because if you DO happen to get Earth spells in Haven guild, try to find a good hero of another faction: Sylvans? Light isn't theirs, Dark Elves? Necros? Stronghold? That leaves Academy. Now suppose I'm Haven and I'd like to try a super-defensive setup, going with a hero who has Light, Earth and Defense; what do you think? Can you get such a hero?) - but because I simply can mechanically take the whole bunch of Offense abilities, up to perfect offense as the 7th.
Is THAT really fun?
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:22 PM |
|
|
Wait. Nur is Solmyr's sister, so this raises two questions:
1. Why is Nur present at time of H5, but Solmyr isn't?
2. Is this the scenario that made Solmyr "a legendary djinn", as described by Zehir?
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:28 PM |
|
|
EnergyZ said:
Wait. Nur is Solmyr's sister, so this raises two questions:
1. Why is Nur present at time of H5, but Solmyr isn't?
2. Is this the scenario that made Solmyr "a legendary djinn", as described by Zehir?
1. Who said he wasn't? Just because he wasn't available as a hero doesn't mean that he's dead (unless I'm wrong.)
2. May be. We have to play it first to see if that's the case.
|
|
jhb
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:28 PM |
|
|
man, I'm very curious about this map now. lol
@avonu, pawek, cleglaw, thx for the info.
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:31 PM |
|
|
Heroes was a game with a healthy element of chance and roll of the dice from day one, and for many people that random factor is what spices up the experience and gives it endless replayability, with skilled users being able to work around bad fortune and win despite the odds,
if you want to have some completely mathematical, predictable, no lady luck allowed ruleset where you can win formulaically in multiplayer I recommend downloading chessmaster, but many of us would already endured that kind of horrible borefest in Heroes 6 and would rather sidestep for the future, cheers lol
____________
|
|
frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:31 PM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
EnergyZ said:
Wait. Nur is Solmyr's sister, so this raises two questions:
1. Why is Nur present at time of H5, but Solmyr isn't?
2. Is this the scenario that made Solmyr "a legendary djinn", as described by Zehir?
1. Who said he wasn't? Just because he wasn't available as a hero doesn't mean that he's dead (unless I'm wrong.)
2. May be. We have to play it first to see if that's the case.
1. There are many possibilities why is he not there. In Nur's H5 bio it states that she fought on many worlds, so it is quite possible that Solmyr is on some other world (if this is not retconed)
2. It could be, but I think that in H5 they mentioned Solmyr, well just to mention someone from old universe. It will be interesting to see how they build that 'legendary' status for Solmyr 
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
|
|
Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:35 PM |
|
Edited by Avonu at 12:42, 16 Sep 2015.
|
EnergyZ said:
Wait. Nur is Solmyr's sister, so this raises two questions:
1. Why is Nur present at time of H5, but Solmyr isn't?
2. Is this the scenario that made Solmyr "a legendary djinn", as described by Zehir?
1. He was mentioned by Zehir, so he is in H5... from a certain point of view. 
Also it seems he like more to tell his stories to Blind Brothers then to create new stories (be active player in newest events).
2. He already is named "legendary Djinn" in his H7's biography. He is the first djinn met by Sar-Elam, while his sister was summoned by a Wizard arter IIRC Sar-Elam death and imprisoned in collapsed tower (which she was tasked to build by that wizard but something went wrong). You can meet her in MMX (5 years after H6 DLCs/H7 map), where she mention, that she was released not a long ago.
frostymuaddib said:
1. There are many possibilities why is he not there. In Nur's H5 bio it states that she fought on many worlds, so it is quite possible that Solmyr is on some other world (if this is not retconed)
I don't remember actual answer but I think it was something like that:
Erwan, few years ago, said:
There are other continents and words beside Ashan...
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 12:52 PM |
|
|
Please guys, would you mind moving lore discussion to the lore thread?
____________
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 01:13 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
@ Maurice specifically, but to all in general.
When comparing the systems you miss a very important point with high impact:
In HoMM 5, ability picks are limited to 3 for each skill. This is extremely important, because it means, you can chose from all, but each picks also means not picking something else.
In HoMM 7 it's just the other way round. When you start, things have already been picked for you, but within these predefined boundaries your only restriction is the total level cap and the available abilities.
Well, I agree with you here, but I implied it with my post. I didn't write it out specifically for Perks, since the post was mainly about Skills.
You are right that it made the selection for you, instead of allowing you to pick them as you go. The only choice you have is whether to pick it or not.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 16, 2015 02:19 PM |
|
|
ChrisD1 said:
What??? Only 3 perks per skill???? That's restricting!!!!!
A restriction that increases the strategy element when playing with the same hero again, unlike H7 you are forced to choose which perks will shape up your hero skills.
If you picked all three Master of _____ perks in Light Magic, you wouldn't be able to pick Storm Wind, Fire Resistance, Refined Mana or Eternal Light.
So it was restrictive in a good way (although personally I would had settled for 4 perks per skill, giving a bit more of room to develop your hero, and also prevent any hero from not being able to learn the ultimate, which is something that happened in H5).
Whereas in H7, your hero class (which is something you may not control, like starting with random hero) limits what skills your hero can learn. That's an example of bad restriction.
ChrisD1 said:
Also in order to get to the advanced skill you had to have one perk from basic, right?
In H5 you didn't need to, so your Demon Lord could get expert defense for that sweet 30% damage reduction in melee while focusing on more priority skills such as Offense, Light/Dark Magic, Logistics etc...
____________
|
| |
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
