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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 13, 2015 09:39 AM |
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Hermes said:
P.s. Graphics of kings bounty. Ugh.
Shouldn't matter. People loved H5 in spite of its graphics.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 09:55 AM |
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Hermes said:
Could you expand on those core features please?
Yeah, I don’t get it either. What core features are broken or missing??? The game is like H5 in all aspects just much less content and tons of bugs. Almost every core feature of H5 is also there in H7.
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imid
Hired Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 10:01 AM |
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Hermes said:
Elvin said:
imid said:
As lion said if ubi sells the rights I am not sure any company would want to "inherit" this community.
Right, because companies buy rights for the community..  Yes there are troublemakers but can you claim that they are more than most other communities? Better yet, can you claim that ubi did not give them the ammunition they are firing?
Ubi has shown time and again that they do not understand the game or the community. They have all the information they could ever want and all they had to do is ask. I do not believe that the average fan should have a say in balance or creature lineups but what about the core features? The ones that make or break the game for them? The ones ubi has messed up two times too many?
Could you expand on those core features please?
Thanks.
P.s. Graphics of kings bounty. Ugh.
Hermes, you had 2 options to comment on: AI and graphics...you chose the wrong one. This tells me a lot about your interests, but I'm not here to fight with the fans. Check the new modes and see what this amazing community can do in a such short time  ...do you mind if I give an UGHHH to these morons from ubilimbic? Heroes 7 is a FIASCO, the only hope is that the community can change something..
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted October 13, 2015 10:09 AM |
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Look, guys. It's simple. attack the game, marketing, statements etc however much you want. that's fine. But the second you attack Erwan or any individual you've crossed the line. Making up a cult in his honour is pretty funny and not inherently wrong (as is pointing out the lies and deceit etc. that Ubi has spread) but when you attack him directly through use of shopped images and personal insults...
that's where the line is crossed.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted October 13, 2015 10:20 AM |
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Bitula said:
Hermes said:
Could you expand on those core features please?
Yeah, I don’t get it either. What core features are broken or missing??? The game is like H5 in all aspects just much less content and tons of bugs. Almost every core feature of H5 is also there in H7.
Couple of things are on my mind: Skill system, and magic system. I would say bad AI, but technically that was present in H5
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 13, 2015 10:22 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 10:33, 13 Oct 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
Look, guys. It's simple. attack the game, marketing, statements etc however much you want. that's fine. But the second you attack Erwan or any individual you've crossed the line. Making up a cult in his honour is pretty funny and not inherently wrong (as is pointing out the lies and deceit etc. that Ubi has spread) but when you attack him directly through use of shopped images and personal insults...
that's where the line is crossed.
I will admit that while humorous most of these events were unnecessary and caused little actual good for the state of Heroes 7. That being said Erwan was no more attacked by the use of a photoshopped face than a politician is when their face is edited and put on a protest sign. Personal insults I don't agree with but I didn't see any it all seemed like one big parody really. So hows about we forget about this and move on eh?
Bitula said:
Yeah, I don’t get it either. What core features are broken or missing??? The game is like H5 in all aspects just much less content and tons of bugs. Almost every core feature of H5 is also there in H7.
Skill system, magic system, seven tier recruitment system, initiative, heck even 3D townscreens could be considered.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 13, 2015 10:50 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 10:52, 13 Oct 2015.
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lokdron said:
Insulting a developer via spider eyes edited and all host of other non sense is not an "adult" way of voicing complaint over a product.
In all honesty, I never had much with the Spider Cult and all those images of Erwan. In fact, I've blocked them all with Ad Block+, because I find them annoying.
Also, there's a reason I don't frequent that cesspit known as the Shadow Council. I thought it would be a good tool for the developers to interact with the community, but all it turned out to be was a lightning conduit they ignored. They (=the publisher, UbiSoft) didn't use it as the tool they initially proposed it would be. Instead of using it as a means of communication with the community and using it to create the game together, they hardly moderated it and ignored most of what was written there. The only topics that got any attention were topics where people like Galaad went berserk.
All in all, UbiSoft in general and Erwan in particular called this on themselves. They've made a lot of promises that they didn't keep and Erwan himself has stated that he didn't have a vision for Heroes 7, or an understanding of what made previous installations so succesful. Even if it's hard to exactly bring to words what that was, examination of those titles should have revealed at least the concepts. By all means, I'd even say that when people started development of this title, one of the first work orders should have been to play through all Heroes titles at least once as well as playing a large number of multiplayer matches against one another to grasp the underlaying concepts of each game.
RPG elements in previous versions (Heroes 1 through 4) were present, but at a very bare minimum. The origin of Magic wasn't revealed, it was just there (which left room to explore it). I recall the Festival of Life concept in Heroes 3, taking place in Krewlod every 30 years, but besides the one campaign focussed on it and a few references to it, it wasn't addressed everywhere. In H6 and H7, they went for a stronger RPG signature, most notably in how the Magic Schools come about to be (one for each of the 7 Dragon aspects of Asha) or in how they offer skills to Heroes (free pick like in most RPGs, as opposed to random chance). Another aspect about the RPG is how strong they drove the lore onto the players, setting a lot of it in stone, rather than leaving it obscure and more in the background - and because of that, they pretty much set a number of hard limits, which blocks creativity and flexibility.
With the above detailed lack of vision and lack of grasp on the "winning" concepts of previous titles, if you then time and again ignore what external people are telling you - be they VIPs or just community members posting on forums they know we visit - you are bound to come head to head with the community. While you can at the very least frown at the way some people voice their opinion in this head to head collision, it's not fair to blame the community for all the mistakes made by the development team, personified in Erwan.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 10:51 AM |
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Gryphs said:
Skill system, magic system, seven tier recruitment system, initiative, heck even 3D townscreens could be considered.
I don’t see how these are broken (except for 3 vs 7 tier). For example: the skill system is accused of being less random. This was the major concern, right? But not everybody likes highly randomized progressions. I never particularly liked how H5 screwed up my chars sometimes (And I think I am not in minority here), so making it more deterministic doesn’t invalidate the core feature, because the core feature is the skill wheel itself and not its degree of randomness.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 13, 2015 11:00 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 11:01, 13 Oct 2015.
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I never said they were broken they are simply not implemented like H5.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 11:07 AM |
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Gryphs said:
I never said they were broken they are simply not implemented like H5 therefore not being a core feature of H5.
This sentence doesn’t make too much sense to me because H5’s skill wheel is not a Homm core feature, the skill wheel itself is a core feature. And anyway AFAIR it is not that much different from H5’s except for the level of randomness.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 13, 2015 11:18 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 11:18, 13 Oct 2015.
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The skill system is a core feature of HOMM not the skill wheel that is simply a way of organizing, and I was going under the assumption you were comparing H7 to H5 as that is what you said it was like in every aspect. Also randomness is not the only thing different for instance H5 perks connected from skill to skill getting a perk in destruction could lead to a perk in warmachines for example.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 13, 2015 11:29 AM |
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Bitula said:
Gryphs said:
Skill system, magic system, seven tier recruitment system, initiative, heck even 3D townscreens could be considered.
I don’t see how these are broken (except for 3 vs 7 tier). For example: the skill system is accused of being less random. This was the major concern, right? But not everybody likes highly randomized progressions. I never particularly liked how H5 screwed up my chars sometimes (And I think I am not in minority here), so making it more deterministic doesn’t invalidate the core feature, because the core feature is the skill wheel itself and not its degree of randomness.
Skill system: Random vs. free choice
Different people like different things, that's a given. Trying to leave the subjectivity behind, we can still say a few things about it. Inherently, skills will be imbalanced, albeit that map conditions may change the relative ratio between skills. For instance, on an Island map the Seafaring Perk in Exploration is valuable, while on a land map without water, it's useless. That as an aside, skills that depend less on external conditions to determine their value will also have a relative static imbalance among eachother. As such, after a few games, people will know which skills are worth more than others. With free choice, why would you then ever pick a skill other than the most valuable one? This reduces replayability: you will always pick the most powerful skills and end up with the same Heroes. By introducing a random system where a select few skills and perks are offered, like was the case in Heroes 3 and Heroes 5, you can still get skills you like - but you also have to deal with curveballs that the game throws you. You're forced to a degree of creativity to exploit a given skill to the best of its potential. Furthermore, even if you do get the skills you prefer, the order in which you get them varies from game to game and as a result, also the way you deploy your army and use them in battle will change. This adds variety and in the end, replayability.
Magic system: Schools vs. Spells
One of the major concerns about Magic Schools is that in order to make most use of them, a Hero needs to develop the Magic School of choice. Yes, you can cast spells unskilled, but that's not a very efficient means of play. The more Schools you have, the more chance you get that the Mage Guild in your Town(s) have spells other than the Magic School(s) in which your Hero is developing. By all means, the more spells you have outside the skills of your Hero, the lower his overall power will be. In Heroes 7 they tried to remedy this by associating each faction with a specific School (besides Academy, that is) as well as offering a School of Preference (players' choice) and having a forbidden School for 3 of the factions, but this still doesn't really remedy this. The main reason is that the Skillwheel really restricts Heroes in which Magic skills they can develop (and the ones they can develop may be capped at Expert) and hence, how useful a specialisation may turn out to be. With fewer Schools, your (Magic) Heroes are bound to get much more spells in their spellbooks that are worth casting, increasing their flexibility as well as relative power. It also allows for more spells within a School while sticking close to the overall number of spells currently in game, adding to variety right there.
Seven Tier recruitment system
By all means, Heroes 7 features a 5 Tier system. They say they have Core, Elite and Champion, but since they introduced the "Strong Core" and "Strong Elite" for each faction, they basically introduced two additional Tiers. It's a hybrid form between Heroes 6 on one hand and Heroes 3 on the other hand. One of the critiques with Heroes 3 was that the power difference between the bottom Tier and top Tier was too large, while in Heroes 6 is was too small (and actually tilted in favor of the lower Tiers). We'll have to see how it works in Heroes 7, but I am mildly optimistic about it. It gives the opportunity to play with a faction's strengths and weaknesses, depending on which of the Cores and which of the Elites is in the "Strong" slot (ranged, support or melee, walking or flying/teleporting).
Initiative
The ATB introduced in Heroes 5 was a brilliant concept, but its execution was rather poorly. It was a mechanism that required fine-tuning, which was somehow missed during its introduction. The way it was designed actually removed the traditional barriers between turns, making for a much more natural flow of battles overall. It also gave freedom in how to implement Hero turns - and one important aspect here was for instance how often Magic Heroes would be able to cast spells relative to Might Heroes. It would have allowed for a differentiation between Hero classes on a fundamental level on the battlefield. But rather than polishing and finetuning this mechanism, for Heroes 6 they reverted back to the tried and true but also rather coarse initiative system they had back in Heroes 3. This was one innovation that could have really made a significant impact in how battles were played out, that showed promise in its conception, but was scrapped for some reason.
Townscreens
Whether they're 2D or 3D doesn't really matter. Two far more important aspects are functionality and immersion. As for the first one, someone else posted here recently (don't remember who, but credit where credit is due) that in previous titles the Townscreens were the interface themselves. Each building with a function could be clicked upon and hence, the townscreen was designed to support that: structures were easy to define and easy to locate when you looked at it, you didn't need to second-guess the function of each structure as you saw it. This is something that was done right in Heroes 1 through 4, with Heroes 5 missing the mark due to making the Towns too large in 3D, no longer fitting within a single overview. They remedied this with secondary UI elements, that would focus on each structure when selected. Heroes 6 and 7 miss the mark because they lack quick identification, even after multiple playthroughs.
The second aspect is immersion. Basically, does the Town feel "real", is it a place where people and fantasy creatures would dwell and lead their everyday life? Does it match the style of the gameworld at large? Previous Heroes titles had this right, for the most part. Heroes 1 and 2 were still a bit rough on the edges (no civilian buildings for the most part, for instance), but Heroes 3 expanded that. Heroes 4 dropped the ball again, by coming up with a systematic Town building scheme, each building on its own. Heroes 5 got the immersion pretty spot on again, but for unknown reasons the whole Townscreen concept got dropped early in Heroes 6. It was only through clamoring of the community to stress the importance of Townscreens that they were eventually introduced. The final versions were at least partial succesful, even though they lacked the civilian structures and thereby fell short in the immersion factor. Heroes 7 continued this trend, again missing the importance of immersion factor. And to add insult to injury, the art style of each Town Screen doesn't match the art style of the Towns as seen on the adventure map, further breaking immersion.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 11:30 AM |
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Elvin said:
Ubi has shown time and again that they do not understand the game or the community.
Does it give to you or to anybody rights to insult someone in person?
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farfromrefuge
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 11:39 AM |
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3lion said:
Elvin said:
Ubi has shown time and again that they do not understand the game or the community.
Does it give to you or to anybody rights to insult someone in person?
Yes. When the aforementioned person is tasked with this, receives a lot of money for this, publicly admits that he has no idea what he is doing and yet keeps the job and receives bonuses - it gets me all the right I need. By personally insulting the aforementioned person, I get to show to the company what is the main problem with the franchise right now and how they can easily fix it. Also I get to show to the person that he is not a visionaire he perceives himself to be and must reevaluate his position in the company and his influence on the series.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 11:49 AM |
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Gryphs said:
The skill system is a core feature of HOMM not the skill wheel that is simply a way of organizing, and I was going under the assumption you were comparing H7 to H5 as that is what you said it was like in every aspect. Also randomness is not the only thing different for instance H5 perks connected from skill to skill getting a perk in destruction could lead to a perk in warmachines for example.
But AFAIR skill wheel is a “trademark” of HOMM games, so it is a core feature too. And it’s not that H7 is like H5 in every aspect, but only in (almost) every aspect of core features. You have skill wheels, caravans, towns, magic guilds, taverns, resources, heroes etc. Nothing important is missing. So arguing against H7 at the level of core features is not valid unless the development will end today. So OK, perks don’t reveal perks from other “domains” AKA: no such perk chains. But is this really game breaking? Does this invalidate a core feature? I don’t think so. Now imagine they decide to scrap the usual resource system and use some other concept instead (like extract resources from spiders). That I would consider game breaking at the core level and possibly not buy the game no matter how many expansions. But really no such thing happened.
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Pim18
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 11:49 AM |
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Regarding the Erwan jokes and photoshops. I personally think that there is nothing wrong with poking a little fun at a developer. I do think however that by this point the joke has kind of overstayed it's welcome.
I understand where both sides are coming from. Insulting people is not nice. I don't know exactly what happened at the Shadow Council(besides something about spam). I must stress though that Erwan and Ubisoft has brought this upon themselves. Lying to your customers is not acceptable in whatever industry.
I do agree what some of the other posts that we should take a more mature stance regarding these current events. It is obviously very clear that the quality of the series has decreased thanks to Ubisoft(and to a lesser extent Erwan). These issues should be tackled professionally and spamming a forum is not a productive way of doing that(How hilarious it may be)
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gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
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posted October 13, 2015 11:58 AM |
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Hey all. So that was an interesting weekend on events aye.
Right down to business.
For those of you that have managed to play and put in a reasonable amount of hours i'de like to start gathering any sort of Unit/skill/spell/tactic balancing feedback so we can go forward with tweaking some numbers.
We've already identified some OP tactics but maybe someone has found something particularly op. To that end feel free to reply here, shoot me a PM or email me any balancing feedback you've got and i'll forward it to the relevant people to digest.
Cheers
Dan
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 13, 2015 12:07 PM |
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Bitula said:
But AFAIR skill wheel is a “trademark” of HOMM games, so it is a core feature too. And it’s not that H7 is like H5 in every aspect, but only in (almost) every aspect of core features. You have skill wheels, caravans, towns, magic guilds, taverns, resources, heroes etc. Nothing important is missing. So arguing against H7 at the level of core features is not valid unless the development will end today. So OK, perks don’t reveal perks from other “domains” AKA: no such perk chains. But is this really game breaking? Does this invalidate a core feature? I don’t think so. Now imagine they decide to scrap the usual resource system and use some other concept instead (like extract resources from spiders). That I would consider game breaking at the core level and possibly not buy the game no matter how many expansions. But really no such thing happened.
Well a skillwheel type of organization was not in the first 4 games so I am not sure it is a trademark. And yes, you are right purely from a core perspective H7 is a Heroes game without a doubt. What most people are referring to as broken in this case is the implementation of the core features which is entirely subjective ultimately.
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Mysterio
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 13, 2015 12:08 PM |
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 OP tactic: Every time my troops get next to the enemy archers they constantly play defend, clearly my armies are OP, nerf pls....
____________
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gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
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posted October 13, 2015 12:24 PM |
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Mysterio said:
OP tactic: Every time my troops get next to the enemy archers they constantly play defend, clearly my armies are OP, nerf pls....
We fixed this little AI issue.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
