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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted December 11, 2015 12:09 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 12:09, 11 Dec 2015.
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Ehh... I should now say that I'm officially depressed or something like that.
So many people, active during H7 pre-release days, disappeared. What does this say about game itself?
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 12:10 PM |
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Karanshade said:
Now the simturn and stuff for MP, I guess it is important. I don't play turn based pvp much except maybe blood bowl so I can not speak for it. I know that the game pausing during a fight in simturn was the recurrent issue on heroes-like game. I know I could not stand it when playing MP with AoW3 (maybe it has changed since vanilla , JJ may tell about that).
No, it hasn't changed. The main problem is this (and the devs said they couldn't change that with the current engine): what happens, if one side is in a battle, and another side attacks the battling side (not necessarily at the same point)?
Now, AoW 3 is very different from HoMM in a lot of ways. There is a lot to do on the adventure map; you will quite soon hold a couple of towns, not just one. You will have more than one fighting armies, you will do a lot of spying/exploring (since single UNITS can wonder around); also battles are - sorry - more involved. You have to manage the damage your units take, because they lose their ability to fight when they come out of battle too damaged, and there are enough settings that will make you lose the odd unit as well.
The bottom line is that things really take time, especially with manual battles.
Now, the thing is - that's known. Live MP is played almost exclusively with Autocombat, and a lot has been done to cater for that, both with balancing, but also with AI quality. AoW is a blast of a game because the AI is really good (and the RMG is superb).
Additionally, they have the PBEM mode, which for me is probably the most enjoyable MP feature ever, because it allows to combine the excitement of MP play with the time management of SP - however, it comes with ONE disadvantage as well: due to the nature of the game, all combats initiated AGAINST a human player will be resolved in Autocombat.
Interestingly enough, while that is somewhat unsatisfactory on a theoretical level, all PBEM games I've finished until now were already decided when the decisive battles came (that is, manual or auto, the result would have been the same); it's really only the midgame battles, if any, that are interesting.
Which means, I would advise you to try PBEM mode for AoW 3. It's one hell of a lot of fun.
Now, in HoMM it's somewhat different. All in all, your Adventure map options are limited by the number of Heroes you have employed, and by the number of towns and, to a lesser extent, Fortresses you own, and a halfway decent HoMM player will be fast with that. For MP, a decent Autocombat AI is a must-have as well, since you will want to save time by autocombating the easy battles and only go for the difficult ones manually, but be that as it may, manual battles are somehow a necessity to do, because otherwise there simply isn't much "game" left.
Now, THAT in turn means, that H5 way of "SimTurns" makes more sense - even more so, since knowing what stops the mode allows map makers to consider that for their maps, keeping opponents apart enough for a sizable amount of the game.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 11, 2015 01:04 PM |
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fred79 said:
when gomaki says, "majority", he means dumbasses who will pay for anything just to kill time.
gomaki, when you say, "hardcore players", you're addressing the actual fans of the heroes series. there's nothing hardcore about us(other than the fact that many here keep buying your company's snow. i am not one of those people, though). we just know what works, regarding heroes games. if you guys at ubisoft bothered listening to ANY of us before the company you represent went off and did their own thing for "the majority"(meaning, their bread and butter, i take it?) when making a heroes game, you might just make something worthwhile, that will add more prestige to your company; instead of merely collecting money from morons, which is what every parasitic corporation does. and they don't last forever, because the ceo's make off with the bankroll's eventually; and leave guys like you in the dust.
i have to ask you personally: where is your integrity? where is ubisoft's? why is it that you guys have to keep coming out with excuses, instead of coming out with a heroes game that is worth a damn?
thank you for your time. i wholeheartedly encourage you to pass this message straight to the head of ubisoft, with a special note to the guys in charge:
keep it simple. it sounds like ubisoft is snowing up the works by having too complicated a job/boss tree. if you were to simplify how you do things, you guys might actually be able to focus on producing a quality product, instead of having to appease a multitude of erroneous bosses and timelines, and dealing with crosswork between teams, which only further confuses things. think of what New World Computing did, with the few they had. THAT'S what you want to aim for. a clustersnow of organization will produce nothing but wasted effort and time.
if corporate or anyone else at ubisoft wants to address me, they can at any time. i look forward to reading your future correspondence here.
Words of truth. I really doubt they will contact you though.
____________
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted December 11, 2015 01:43 PM |
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Karanshade said:
We knew. We all knew.
People here knew, perhaps. Cannot say for all those who have never visited forums and blogs for that matter, which might be the great majority of those who bought the game. Some of those voiced by Steam reviews, apparently unaware they would have bought an incomplete work. I particularly think that most of those who bought it were really expecting something which should have worked (at least most of the features working), no matter which trend people condone these days. There will be those who are not used to be complaining around, but will surely never buy anything from either Ubisoft or Limbic. Well, each own with their own response, voiced or not, some of us willing this franchise not to die, but not to keep going this way (which implies many other paths); those are different focuses.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 01:51 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 13:56, 11 Dec 2015.
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Brukernavn said:
I just wanted to comment briefly on the "hardcore" thing. I consider myself a casual player, but I have spent many an hour with H3 and maybe even more with H5. Among the people I know in real life, I am the person with the largest interest in the Heroes franchise. For this reason my opinion of the game will directly influence whether my friends, family, co-workers etc. even consider buying the game. So far I have prevented maybe 10-15 people (IRL) from buying H7, just by comparing it to previous titles. I think you can assume the same for most of the people in the "hardcore" category. That's not mentioning the online effect. If the fans don't like it, you've lost your most fervent advertisers.
And in this case it's even worse. Not only do many of the fans not like the game, but they are actively working against it. I have previously argued that this is caused largely by the advertisement and communication from Ubisoft. And as JJ mentioned a few pages back, the fans warned about a lot of the problems long in advance, but were ignored.
Regarding the sales numbers for H6, that game had a lot of things going for it. It followed the eventual success of H5, the fans were not as clearly negative as with H7, and the reviews were generally positive. The real test of it's success is how many - after buying the game - bought the DLCs and expansion? Being the only game since H2 with only one expansion, and the early decision to end the support, indicates that it was not so successful in this regard.
And when we're already discussing sales numbers, let's include Heroes 7 and Heroes 3 HD. First of all, according to these numbers Heroes 3 HD has sold 6 times as many copies as H7 so far. Secondly, for modern video games about a third of the total sales are made during the first 24 hours (including pre-orders). If we generously let H7 sales so far represent a third of the total sales, it will only sell 1/4 as many copies as H6. This is another indication that many of the people who bought H6 were not pleased enough to buy the new iteration. Although the numbers are also affected by all the bad reviews. Once the bad reviews are out there, it's very, very difficult to repair the damage, however unjustified some of them might be.
as galaad is reiterating my post, i feel it important to reiterate this post. gomaki, if my post on the matter didn't sink in, then this one should. because sales of a title keep you employed. believe me, if i were the guy running things for heroes games at ubisoft, things would be much different(meaning, the heroes series wouldn't be headed towards the grave).
and you know why? because i'm(as well as many others here) apparently more intelligent than many bosses working there at the moment. what does that say about the company you represent? what does that say about your job security?
---------------
edit: lol, noticed that the placement of part of 2 sentences could send very different messages than what i was trying to send. 
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AcidDragon
Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
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posted December 11, 2015 02:24 PM |
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gomaki,
Speaking on behalf of the "hardcore fans" at Acid Cave, I must say what I got out of your comment concerning opinions about the game. It looks like this:
- the game has negative fan feedback, but that is just the vast minority of players
- the game has many negative Steam reviews, but that is not an indicator of game quality
- the game has many nagative Steam reviews, but many of those players just played the game for 2 hours on day 1
The truth is that no matter what you think about reviews, feedback and whether fans at Celestial Heavens, Heroes Community or Acid Cave are hardcore or not, to my knowledge there is a strong statistical correlation between Steam / fan response and overall game success.
If you refuse to acknowledge that Heroes 7 got many negative reviews from:
- fans
- casual players
- critics
and dismiss them as not representative / not fair / not true then in the end you will be stuck with thinking of "we made a great game, but we just had bad luck".
Um, no.
Reviews of fans / players / critics in most cases ARE representative for an overall game quality.
Every game franchise has its hardcore fans as well as people who will just try a game for 2 hours on day 1 and have an opinion. Also every game (well, almost every game) nowadays gets patched after day 1 and increases in quality after the release.
Those things are not special for Heroes 7.
And Heroes 7 is not a very good game. It is definitely not "the best of Heroes", like the authors said it would be.
Is it the worst of Heroes (like some reviews claim)? No. (Heroes Online currently holds that title. )
Did the game get better after patches? Yes.
Did it get good enough to say that now it's a great game? Sorry, no.
____________
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 11, 2015 03:16 PM |
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patches won't help. at this point we need...
duct tape.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 11, 2015 03:19 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 15:20, 11 Dec 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
patches won't help. at this point we need...
duct tape.
I've got quite a lot of it in my garage! Anyone needs some?
PS. Sadly, I have no insulating tape.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted December 11, 2015 03:25 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
kiryu133 said:
patches won't help. at this point we need...
duct tape.
I've got quite a lot of it in my garage! Anyone needs some?
PS. Sadly, I have no insulating tape.
What we need now is probably Victor Frankenstein...
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 03:43 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Pawek_13 said:
kiryu133 said:
patches won't help. at this point we need...
duct tape.
I've got quite a lot of it in my garage! Anyone needs some?
PS. Sadly, I have no insulating tape.
What we need now is probably Victor Frankenstein...
i've got jumper cables. i can do this. 
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted December 11, 2015 03:53 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
What we need now is probably Victor Frankenstein...
Or some Archangels. 
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted December 11, 2015 05:07 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 29 Feb 2016. |
Edited by verriker at 17:11, 11 Dec 2015.
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some more food for thought on reviews from OpenCritic, the new and unbiased review aggregator, since gomaki wanted to create lots of excuses for the game:
OpenCritic said:
AGE OF WONDERS III (March 31st, 2014)
http://opencritic.com/#!game/1297/age-of-wonders-iii
81/100
Age of Wonders III is ranked in the top 19.6% of games scored on OpenCritic
79% of critics recommend this game
OpenCritic said:
ENDLESS LEGEND (September 18th, 2014)
http://opencritic.com/#!game/1277/endless-legend
83/100
Endless Legend is ranked in the top 12.4% of games scored on OpenCritic
86% of critics recommend this game
OpenCritic said:
SID MEIER'S CIVILIZATION: BEYOND EARTH (October 24th, 2014)
http://opencritic.com/#!game/1275/sid-meier-s-civilization-beyond-earth
82/100
Civilization: Beyond Earth is ranked in the top 15.6% of games scored on OpenCritic
78% of critics recommend this game
OpenCritic said:
SORCERER KING (July 16th, 2015)
http://opencritic.com/#!game/1379/sorcerer-king
82/100
Sorcerer King is ranked in the top 15.6% of games scored on OpenCritic
77% of critics recommend this game
OpenCritic said:
MIGHT & MAGIC HEROES VII (September 29th, 2015)
http://opencritic.com/#!game/1793/might-magic-heroes-vii
62/100
Might & Magic Heroes VII is ranked in the bottom 18.8% of games scored on OpenCritic
12% of critics recommend this game
isn't it fascinating how misleading average scores like 60 and 80 on Metacritic can be in the games industry, when as OpenCritic correctly points out, the gap in value translates to the worse game ending up on the bottom of the pile with almost nobody recommending we play it?
how dare try to nullify the Steam reviews and so presumptuously accuse those who played under two hours of maliciously nuking them, when even the so-called "professional" critics almost completely agree that this game is not recommended and not worth anybody's valuable time?
before someone tries to delude us all that the game is great at its core, has great potential and the low scores are all just because of the mean ole bugs, let's study some of the critics' less forgiving reviews and find out:
CGM said:
http://www.cgmagonline.com/reviews/might-and-magic-heroes-vii-pc-review/ (3/10)
When you have to go into a game immediately struggling to find something positive or enjoyable, that’s really not a good sign.
As a reviewer, I was bored, as a gamer I was confused, and as a fan, I was disappointed. Ubisoft’s indifference for a long-running and beloved series is a problem, and I hope they realize that.
Do not play Heroes of Might and Magic VII. From the game’s fundamentally flawed technical foundation to the abhorrently misdirected implementation and communication of design elements, this is one massively missed opportunity.
GamePlanet said:
http://www.gameplanet.com.au/pc/reviews/g56172f7f955d7/Might-Magic-Heroes-VII-review/ (4.5/10)
It’s inferior in every way to every other entry in the series – a barebones rehash of old ideas that can’t even claim a graphical upgrade to hide the fact it does nothing new. In many cases, it doesn’t even manage to execute the basics well.
In short: everything here feels like an inferior version of what was available in previous games in the series. Tellingly, when I was done with playing Heroes VII, I had the urge to reinstall Heroes VI. I did so, and it’s a vastly more interesting and entertaining game.
It’s sad that the Heroes fan base has been let down with the release of Might and Magic Heroes VII. An unfinished, bug ridden bore, it feels more like a budget release than a major title from a large publisher.
WCCFtech said:
http://wccftech.com/review/might-magic-heroes-vii-review/ (5.4/10)
The Might & Magic Heroes franchise seems to be in a difficult place. At best it has stagnated, at worst it is actively moving backwards, budgeting itself and catering solely to the current fans who already know exactly how to play it, what it will entail and need no instructions going in.
Limbic Entertainment failed to understand that a sequel should improve on, or include new features, not take away, which is what they have done with Might & Magic Heroes VII. Newcomers need not apply when it comes to this game. Without a doubt, Might & Magic Heroes VII has been designed under the impression that somebody who hadn’t played a previous entry wouldn’t be interested in picking this up.
Going back to what I said at the beginning, something needs to change. What should be a flagship title for Ubisoft to prove that they have a place in the PC market has stagnated. Budgets seem to be getting smaller. Features are cut, in this case the feature is the game simply telling you how to play it.
(so if the developer tells us they have to cater to the casual market before the hardcore fans, and casual market is saying the game only caters to the hardcore fans, and the hardcore fans say it doesn't cater to them, who the **** is left to play the game then? lol)
Digitally Downloaded said:
http://www.digitallydownloaded.net/2015/10/review-might-magic-heroes-vii-pc.html (3/5)
The gameplay itself is both comfortably familiar and threatening to become stale. Having been a long time fan of the Heroes of Might & Magic games, it's disappointing that this iteration in the series struggles to do much more than look back at the most successful titles in the series. ...Many have felt that this series had lost its way from as far back as chapter IV, and that is principally because they haven't really evolved from the original trilogy in a way that adds value to the games.
While the formula is a tried and true one I can appreciate, it really does not do much that has not already been done in the genre for the last decade or two.
I touched on the sometimes iffy voice acting, and in other places the production values seem a bit light. For a game with a long history like this one and produced by a big company like Ubisoft, the still art during cutscenes only reinforces the notion that the lacking tutorials first gave me - that this title was given a very strict budget.
GamingBolt said:
http://gamingbolt.com/might-magic-heroes-vii-review (5/10)
No bit of nostalgia or devotion to the franchise could make Limbic’s latest turn-based title worth your time. ...Suffice to say, the series is a long way away from the brilliance that it displayed under New World Computing.
As a whole though, there’s a difference between stream-lining complex functionality and dumbing it down. Unfortunately, the gameplay is more of the latter than the former. Newcomers will simply have an uphill battle to face when learning the game’s mechanics and finer points while struggling with the numerous bugs. Even if there were a few great ideas buried in Might & Magic Heroes 7, they’ve simply been outdone by the number of questionable design decisions and overall shoddiness of the game.
Terrible "talking heads" style cut scenes. ... Lack of any real variety between different factions. Gameplay doesn't feel as rich as previous games in terms of complexity. Optimization issues and ho-hum visuals mixed with bad animations and SFX. Terrible AI. Might & Magic Heroes 7 may not the series' lowest point but it's a low point all the same. Even with proper attention given to eradicating bugs, it fails to capture the magic of the franchise's best.
VentureBeat said:
http://venturebeat.com/2015/10/01/might-and-magic-heroes-vii-avoiding-this-epic-disappointment-is-your-best-strategy/view-all/ (4/10)
Avoiding this epic disappointment is your best strategy. Might & Magic: Heroes VII offers the worst game yet in a venerable turn-based strategy franchise. Not only does the game itself disappoint, but it’s painful to watch the hopes of long-time fans turn into the realization that they played the best installments of Might & Magic long ago.
I mentioned earlier that M&M offers many dials to tweak and buttons to push in building, recruiting, and fighting with your armies. But realistically, you can often ignore almost all of them. A single hero, adventuring through the countryside with no “built” units whatsoever and just collecting whatever army members he happens upon, could handle anything but the worst town sieges on normal difficulty in Might & Magic: Heroes VII.
Even if I had never run into a single technical difficulty, this title would not earn a rave review — it would have earned an additional 25 points for the final score. Too many factors weigh down the gameplay, too much depth appeared to be there for the sake of providing “options” that weren’t, and frankly, it just wasn’t that fun.
so when I see something like this appear on the forum,
gomaki said:
Heroes 7 is by no means perfect. A lot of people here say it's simply bad, and hey, in your opinion that might be the case. Do remember though that Heroes Community, Celestial Heaven, Acid Cave or who ever else are the hard core community, you speak for a VERY small majority of the playing community. That doesn't make the opinions in-valid and in fact I wouldn't even be here if I thought what all of you guys said was irrelevant. In a lot of cases you're spot on with some assessments and ideas. But you have to understand we're not making a game just for you, the hardcore fan base. If some things don't make sense from the perspective of a hardcore player, it might be because it's better for a majority. However I will accept some things might just not be good, and in those cases we will aim to change what can be changed.
all I can do is sigh and shake my head, because it becomes so clear once again that words, reason, facts staring them in the face will always be anathema to Team Erwin and associates lol
____________
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted December 11, 2015 05:24 PM |
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Quote:
(so if the developer tells us they have to cater to the casual market before the hardcore fans, and casual market is saying the game only caters to the hardcore fans, and the hardcore fans say it doesn't cater to them, who the **** is left to play the game then? lol)
QFT. As a diehard Heroes fan I didn't even bother getting the soundtrack, never mind the so-called 'game'. If even its supposed fans don't want anything to do with it, how can one expect to crack the casual market?
____________
Friend-shaped
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted December 11, 2015 05:41 PM |
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@fred79
Do your best to fix things.
@Pawek_13
We should resurrect something that is good. Reading Verriker's post convinced me that we should use Archangels on some other Heroes game...
verriker said:
(so if the developer tells us they have to cater to the casual market before the hardcore fans, and casual market is saying the game only caters to the hardcore fans, and the hardcore fans say it doesn't cater to them, who the **** is left to play the game then? lol)
If I was a mod I would +QP you just for this sentence alone, although the entire post is cold and ruthless, just what the doctor ordered...
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted December 11, 2015 07:05 PM |
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Fortunately Limbic will be able to fix the problems... finally, no matter how long it takes. That's my wish. We will hope and see. We cannot do more for it right now, just keep giving feedback and hoping. This game needs a long support as these reviews show us. But even sone games with 1/10 points can be finally made good if devs get enough time and money to fix them. But if it fails, I guess we will not see any Heroes in the future.
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drusain
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 11, 2015 07:29 PM |
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gomaki said:
Galaad said:
Please enlighten us about this so called majority of gamers happy with what Ubisoft is doing with this franchise, believe it or not reviews are an indicator of the success of a game. Look at Witcher III, or Divinity Original Sin for instance, it's like the other side of the mirror.
I know you are not the one making big calls here but please do not believe all the crap they tell you.
I know you like the game Galaad but I didn't realize you bought all of these steam copies of Heroes 6 yourself. http://steamspy.com/app/48220
This is one of the most petty and flippant responses that I've ever seen from someone who considers himself or herself a community manager.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 11, 2015 07:57 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Fortunately Limbic will be able to fix the problems...
Except that they are also responsible for them, obviously.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 11, 2015 09:58 PM |
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Antalyan said:
We cannot do more for it right now, just keep giving feedback and hoping.
But you already did more. You gave them 50 + euros/dollars.
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted December 11, 2015 10:25 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Reading Verriker's post convinced me that we should use Archangels on some other Heroes game...
Heroes 2? 
____________
"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted December 11, 2015 10:49 PM |
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Gryphs said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
Reading Verriker's post convinced me that we should use Archangels on some other Heroes game...
Heroes 2?
That is already covered with Succession War mod.  How about NWC's H5? 
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
