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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 10, 2016 04:32 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
For a good designer lore just doesn't matter as a restriction - you either cope or you find some way around.
Now, I do not disagree with this statement, but I think we are at the case of:
- Ubi pushing limitations through lore.
- Limbic failing to get around them.
What other people here are suggesting is to get rid of the silly Lore limitations so the developer has an easier time designing the game. Not that they cannot do it otherwise, but it would help immensely.
IMO both sides of this discussion are right.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 10, 2016 04:33 PM |
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There are no figures anywhere about Uplay sale numbers? On one hand, it's somewhat weird as it can be used to promote successful game series, but on the other hand, Steam is a lot broader and features a lot more games than Uplay ever will. Besides, Uplay is focussed on the UbiSoft games exclusively, if I am not mistaken, whereas on Steam publishers will have to compete with one another for getting top sales.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 10, 2016 04:35 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
I would say given the popularity of H5, considering how different it is from H3 in especially lore and aesthetics, but also gameplay, there is ample evidence that the Heroes fan base is very adaptable. Although the development and poor release of H5 has kept some people away for good, the majority of the players had no problem enjoying the game despite that.
We have no evidence about some exhaustive list of H2-H5 players, as there were players who prefer to compete online and keep track while leveling in official ranks, then there were players which just play the game, single or multi -hot seat probably, but have no desire for competition play, thus are not registered anywhere so there is no track of.
So, while no one can say for sure how the totality of players adapted or not, we still have accurate statistics from ToH which show that the number of active reported players was divided by ten or more between H3 and H5, and same thing happened with the number of games reported.
Sure, there are 15 years of technological progress and Internet development between the two games, many players drowned in WoW whirlpools, there are now hundred of other amazing games, but still if you consult the nominal list of H3-H5 players, you will notice something quite interesting, that only two-three players from some 500+ H3 active moved to H5.
Jinxer, Vex and Vesuvius.
The first is hair cutter so that explains, the second is russian so same, the third is the tourney owner so he has to give the example. [j/k]
This being observed, I am not so convinced about how adaptive are H3 players to H5 (me personally I can't stand one turn in H5 for example while I played like a mad H2-H3). They can adapt to a lot of additional and even mechanics changing content -see Wog and HoTA, but not so likely to something which is obviously a downgrade while using tons of make-up to hide it -see H5 battlefield compared to H3 or game overall slowness, huge maps bugs and broken saves. I am more inclined to see a specific H4 and H5 mass of players, newcomers, without specific expectations. They didn't adapt, they discovered a new game and they enjoyed it.
People here often forget that what is addicting in Heroes former games -for a noticeable number of players, is not how "interesting" is the game, how "many different creatures" it has, or how "balanced and intelligent" is designed. Is simply a happy and inspired mixture of simplicity with the right hit-on, graphics, music, fluidity, accessibility, interface and many other. With its cheesiness and flaws as well, they are part of the fun. Then the battlefield is an environment where you spend 90% of the game play time. If someone thinks the H4 then the H5 battlefield are worth succeeding or improving H3, then there is no objective argue possible, you miss the core of what killed the game.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 10, 2016 04:38 PM |
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verriker said:
Hermes said:
Seriously?
Endless is STEAM only, whereas Heroes 7 were sold on uplay also - for example, all collectors editions.
lol seriously lol,
for instance MMX Legacy was also available on Uplay too, and it sold about twice as much as Heroes 7 did on Steam with an even more shoestring budget, and still regarded as a complete commercial loss and dismal failure by Ubisoft lol
Holy snow, I've just checked and you're right, MMX outperformed H7, at least in Steam lul
Ofc H3HD still managed to sell over four times H7, to add more salt to the injury 
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 05:15 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Ofc H3HD still managed to sell over four times H7
Lol
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 05:42 PM |
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 06:01 PM |
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Stevie said:
There is no M&M game under Ubisoft that sold less than Heroes 7.
I almost hear Breton's voice saying that this is because the niche is dead (ofcourse it is dead because conservative fans ruined this niche and didn't let newcomers to try this genre) and no one want to play TBS this deays.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 10, 2016 06:21 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:22, 10 Aug 2016.
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Storm-Giant said:
verriker said:
MMX Legacy was also available on Uplay too, and it sold about twice as much as Heroes 7 did on Steam with an even more shoestring budget, and still regarded as a complete commercial loss and dismal failure by Ubisoft lol
Holy snow, I've just checked and you're right, MMX outperformed H7, at least in Steam lul
Ofc H3HD still managed to sell over four times H7, to add more salt to the injury
Oh wow.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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vitirr
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 06:43 PM |
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Hermes said:
Besides, Endless is a cheaper game appealing to completely different fanbase(4x)
Start adding the price for the addons and you may start thinking otherwise.
They have produced 3 big expansions (and a few other smaller ones I think), one of them just a few months ago and it is rumored that another one will come out soon, after almost two years of the initial release.
But people don't seem to be upset with the prices, they apparently keep buying these addons because the game is good.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 07:45 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
Again I think you are looking too narrowly at Heroes alone, and not the M&M brand as a whole (which Ubi does).
Ironic, because I was going to make the same point toward you.
Of course Ubi wants the M&M brand to be successful -at least compared to what they invested in it- they just don't care much about the specific installment. As long as a HOMM game is produced every two years and still has enough of a fanbase to return more of what was spent, that's fine. When it stops happening, then they got a problem.
If their latest installments had a loading time between 10-20 minutes before actually having access to gameplay (hint: it does indeed) but people bought it happily, there is no one at Ubisoft who would be making a stand about artistic/authorial integrity or cohesiveness of honesty of the product. Which is understandable in a sense: it's not their job to. No enterpreneur in the world would throw a fit because his/her newfound theatric star is "objectively" (?) bad at acting if the crowd is cheering for the star and buying tickets. I just think Ubi has crossed the thin line that goes between thinking like a businessman and having a shortsighted and greedy vision that doesn't allow creativity and art to thrive much and actually reward only aggressive, uncreative blockbustering strategies. And I don't think I'm being unfair.
Now you brought up one factor that deserves discussion: even Ubi knows limitations; when it thinks that their neglecting is at risk of effectively killing a franchise, even Ubi draws the line and tries to make things right in order to keep the cash-cow alive. BUT, it does so only when it concludes that there is still something left to milk. Otherwise it just quits and lets the franchise die.
What they will do with M&M I don't know, they sent ambiguous signals about their intentions so I guess we'll wait and see.
3lion said:
According to SteamSpy, Erwan's brilliant master mind sold less then 100k copies. Not sure that Ubi is considering it as a success.
Probably not, but they could just conclude that the game is too niche and that is not Erwan's fault much, or that it is just means that their way of handling the public and the community did a lot of damage to the sales (and it did, actually).
Or they can conclude that Erwan is incompetent and fire him.
They will very likely still search for someone to do what Erwan LeBreton is doing, anyway, or rather what he tried to do: making HOMM "modern" at the cost of killing some of its uniqueness, release games in short time, cutting corners, boast about the games and their greatness in order to increase sales, and the circle of life continues.
Maybe they won't. I think everything points to this, but if I'm wrong I'll be sincerely happy.
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Alki
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 10, 2016 08:00 PM |
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Hello, I'm totally late for this mega-thread and maybe offtopic, but:
Is it true, that the network-code was never cleanly written from scratch since Heroes 5 or so, and that this is the main reason why Multiplayer has never worked correctly in all following HOMM games?
(implying that the developers only refactored the buggy existing code for the new engine)
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 10, 2016 08:12 PM |
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um, maybe we have a bit of miscommunication of expectations here,
you're basically coming in having a thesis and a contention that we shouldn't expect a removal of Erwin or Team Erwin to magically bring about high quality Heroes games,
yeah, I think everyone is already very well aware of that though, no big revelation lol
few people are expecting Ubisoft or Vivendi to create a good Heroes game in the future, whatsoever, that ship has already sailed due to Team Erwin's utter squandering of all the opportunities and goodwill with the core community lol
the best I am hoping for really, is for them to either ideally stop abusing the brand altogether now by no longer putting out any more sequels, (the more likely outcome IMO), or otherwise at least be more honest about the shameless cash grab and go full speed ahead with it (blast off with all the mobile garbage, disgusting DRM, and whatever they intend for profit) so we as a community won't really have to care about the series and legacy to be strung along with lies lol
the current situation is worse than either because it's effectively the slowest and painful death possible, a time wasting, shysteriffic race to the bottom lol
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 08:15 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 20:16, 10 Aug 2016.
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verriker said:
the best I am hoping for really, is for them to either ideally stop abusing the brand altogether now by no longer putting out any more sequels,
Oh, ok. I think you'll be served then.
I, for one, would like for the M&M rights to shift ownership and the series to get a reboot. Too much to ask probably.
PS: I still don't get that "Erwin out of the picture" comment you made.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 10, 2016 08:18 PM |
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Momo said:
I, for one, would like for the M&M rights to shift ownership and the series to get a reboot. Too much to ask probably.
That could work. But I do not think Vivendi, or any other company that is interested in "hostile takover" Ubisoft, would have much of a interest in Might and Magic IP. All they'd have to do is see what the MM team has been doing so far to lose all interest of having anything to do with the franchise.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 10, 2016 08:25 PM |
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I would also love that much more than the other alternatives, but for the reasons EnergyZ mentioned I unfortunately wouldn't dare to hope for it lol
everyone wants a great game, but if not possible, the next best thing is to not tarnish the series further with poor ones lol
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 11:21 PM |
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Elvin said:
Storm-Giant said:
verriker said:
MMX Legacy was also available on Uplay too, and it sold about twice as much as Heroes 7 did on Steam with an even more shoestring budget, and still regarded as a complete commercial loss and dismal failure by Ubisoft lol
Holy snow, I've just checked and you're right, MMX outperformed H7, at least in Steam lul
Ofc H3HD still managed to sell over four times H7, to add more salt to the injury
Oh wow.
Yeah,
Now substract all Heroes 7 deluxe sales from that number.
Also account for the difference in price.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted August 10, 2016 11:44 PM |
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Considering that some might have bought H7 Deluxe because there was H3HD in there, who knows! And those who bought H7 only after it got its price down ...
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2016 11:54 PM |
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Hermes said:
Yeah,
Now substract all Heroes 7 deluxe sales from that number.
Also account for the difference in price.
Now divide the sales of every Heroes game by their chronological number and you get another level of mental gymnastics.
Also account for the difference in bugs per euro cent. Clearly a total bargain. Hakuna Matata!
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 11, 2016 12:12 AM |
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I doubt that deluxe edition sold that well, mainly due to its exorbitant price.
Let's use steampsy data to do some math:
Heroes 7 sold about 90k copies on steam, let's just ditch trial by fire as it sold only 4k copies. Also let's ignore the price fluctuation as it only brought only about 2k copies on $25 instead of $30. That means about $30 * 90k = $2.7 millions. Now let's go for H3:HD, a ~400k copies, this time I will take the price change into account as 40k people bought it for $4 on summer sale, fair enough I say, so 360k for $15 and 40k for $4. Now let's do some math, $15 * 360k + $4 * 40k = 5.4 millions + 0.16 millions = $5.56 millions, so more than double h7 did. Now let's make some absurd situation and say that half (a BIG exaggeration) bought collector edition for 60$, that's unreal (pun intended), so $60 * 45k + $30 * 45k = 2.7 millions + 1.35 millions = 4.05 millions, still lower than H3:HD, even if we subtract all deluxe editions as accounting for h3 copies, 5.56 million - 15 * 45k = 5.56 millions - 0.675 millions = 4.885 millions.
The argument for "uplay sold most copies!" doesn't quite stand as I see that steam is far more used, but it works in h3:hd favor too. Let's say for the sake of the argument that it adds extra 100k copies for h7, again a big exaggeration, and 40k for h3:hd , though if your argument holds up this should be bigger than 400k , so $30 * 190k = 5.7 millions, against $15 * 400k + $4 * 40k = 6.0 millions + 0.16 millions = $6.16 millions, so still more.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 11, 2016 12:26 AM |
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H3HD probably enjoyed more promotions than H7, so this is always hard to tell.
Of course, we can't forget the original H3 has been on sale since 1999 and it is available on GoG for a far lower price, the complete version to boot!
Bottom line is: H7 has performed abysmally.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
